When was the Book of Revelation written?

[Dorothy Mae]

This could hardly be more in error. Historicism was mot invented until much later. Almost all of the early church writers were decided and outspoken futurists. And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome said "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that" and then went on to describe a futurist interpretation. (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

This needs to be researched cause I heard the traditional view until the 19th century was the events were then past. I haven’t read the writings myself but i’ll check it out. What is clear to me is the claim of futurists regarding the veracity of the date of Rev is not born out. The more I read, the less I’m convinced Irenaeus is at all reliable. That clearly what is heresay is called “proof” casts doubt on the ability to read with an unbiased attitude.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

he/it is the noun that was seen, as indicated by the preposition, and it is he/it that causes this to be debatable. Was it seen in the reign of Domitian, or was he seen in the reign of Domitian?

I’ll throw in another problem. One of Nero’s name was close to Domitian, Domitius or something like that.

 

[David Kent]

Otherwise, lack of contradiction is not evidence of support when it comes to ancient texts.

Your evidence is so flimsy as to be non existent.

 

[David Kent]

Nope, they were definitely not alive at the same time.

Irenaeus was only a boy when he learned from Polycarp. Polycarp was the disciple of John.
Unfortunately, Irenaeus never actually wrote down what he learned from Polycarp as a child. He waited 40-50 years to write it down.

It Irenauis was born in AD 120 he would have been 25 when Polycarp died. He is estimated to be born AD 120-140. If it was 140 he would only be 5. Against the heresies is only known in a Latin translation, the original Greek is lost. In Josephus the Latin translation often varies from the original Greek. Also the MS would have been copied many times.

I don' t seem to have it now, my grandson begged many of my books but I did have a book of writings from Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, and on the martyrdom of Polycarp. The later ends with a list of copyists, each giving his name. The original copyist and then those after saying it was copied "out of that copy by me.." The last copiest said "it was copied out of that copy by me, after Polycarp revealed it to me in a dream" If anyone has a copy perhaps they can put the exact wording.

 

[David Kent]

This needs to be researched cause I heard the traditional view until the 19th century was the events were then past. I haven’t read the writings myself but i’ll check it out. What is clear to me is the claim of futurists regarding the veracity of the date of Rev is not born out. The more I read, the less I’m convinced Irenaeus is at all reliable. That clearly what is heresay is called “proof” casts doubt on the ability to read with an unbiased attitude.

I don't know who you heard that from. The early church writers taught a future antichrist, not in the distant future, "but even at the doors". ut first the Roman empire had to be overthrown by 10 kings. That was fulfilled in the 5th century.

Revelation is not a book on its own, it has to fit in with the prophecies of Daniel. Revelation is past, then the stone without hands must have already filed the earth, Daniel 2 and the saints have taken the kingdom, Daniel 7.

The whole of the non Catholic Church from the time when the papacy gat its full persecuting powers in about AD 1200 taught that the pope was the man of sin, the Roman church was the harlot church. Only in the 16th century when the RCC put the Jesuit Alcazar on the case and he taught Preterism and Belamine, Ribeira and others taught Futurism did Satan managed to muddy the waters, but they didn't take hold till the 19th century.

 

[David Kent]

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your evidence is so flimsy as to be non existent.

How do you know? What evidence have I given in detail? The evidence I have is extremely strong as none of it is based on what someone heard someone say when they were a child. It is based on the real history of events described by an historian who happened to be there. This is evidence. It is not heresay.

What is interesting is the anger that emerges when the futurist view is challenged. That view, btw, is the view the Pharisees had of the Messiah and they too were deeply angry that Jesus claimed to be he and rejected him because he did not restore the Jewish kingdom giving them rule over the earth. This is the futurist view of some....right in line with the Pharisees who opposed, violently, Jesus.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know who you heard that from. The early church writers taught a future antichrist, not in the distant future, "but even at the doors". ut first the Roman empire had to be overthrown by 10 kings. That was fulfilled in the 5th century.

Can you please provide writings of the early church where they taught about a future antichrist. And why is the demise of the Roman empire overthrowning the antichrist?

Revelation is not a book on its own, it has to fit in with the prophecies of Daniel. Revelation is past, then the stone without hands must have already filed the earth, Daniel 2 and the saints have taken the kingdom, Daniel 7.

It fits in beautifully with Daniel and was fulfilled in and before 70AD by and large.

The whole of the non Catholic Church from the time when the papacy gat its full persecuting powers in about AD 1200 taught that the pope was the man of sin, the Roman church was the harlot church. Only in the 16th century when the RCC put the Jesuit Alcazar on the case and he taught Preterism and Belamine, Ribeira and others taught Futurism did Satan manage to muddy the waters, but they didn't take hold till the 19th century.

You know who is refered to as a harlot over and over again in the scripture? The wife of God, as it were, the only body who could be a harlot, Israel. Israel is called a harlot. The RCC never was attached to Christ, not from day 1. Cannot be a harlot then.

 

[David Kent]

I did want to clarify that I am not disputing the initial instance of Preterism, or the conflicts going on at the time in terms of the struggle with the Catholic Church during the Reformation. What I am disputing is the notion that Preterism was invented as a church politic, as opposed to it being the actual point of view of that particular Jesuit, who produced the work at that time because it was appropriate to do so, though his research would obviously have predated the publication.

And Futurism?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Does anyone have any links to any of the church fathers writing extensively about revelation? My impression is they did not know what to do with the book, did not understand it at all, some considered it not worthy to be in the canon. But what I do not find anywhere, although I have not looked everywhere, is where they expressed a futuristic view. What am I missing in their writings? (Leave out which caesar John was exiled under.=

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And Futurism?

Waiting for those lengthy treatise from the early centuries before the 5th where the church fathers outline in detail the book of revelation talking about a future event.

 

[David Kent]

You know who is refered to as a harlot over and over again in the scripture? The wife of God, as it were, the only body who could be a harlot, Israel. Israel is called a harlot. The RCC never was attached to Christ, not from day 1. Cannot be a harlot then.

The RCC grew out of the Roman Church. In the beginning she was sound and part of the bride of Christ, but over the years she aposatciesed.

The first Bishop of Rome was Linus, mentioned by Paul and the third was Clement also mentioned by Paul. Clement, in his espistle to the Corinthians, says that "Christ will come to his temple " As this was written in the 1st century, it could only refer to the church, as historicists believe or a future temple as futurists believe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The RCC grew out of the Roman Church. In the beginning she was sound and part of the bride of Christ, but over the years she aposatciesed.

Why do you say she was sound? The first pontifux maximus was Constatine who brought into the christian church all the pagan trappings we see today. And within a short time, he started persecuting and killing any believer who did not knowledge the RCC. The man himself was probably never converted and it is known he waited until he was dying to be baptised. Hedging his bets, I guess. Nothing christian about the first pope nor what he brought to the church. A real Christain would not wait until the end to be baptised nor persecute those who do not acknowledge his position.

The first Bishop of Rome was Linus, mentioned by Paul and the third was Clement also mentioned by Paul. Clement, in his espistle to the Corinthians, says that "Christ will come to his temple " As this was written in the 1st century, it could only refer to the church, as historicists believe or a future temple as futurists believe.

Actually the Bible say we are the temple of God now. There will never be a building that God dwells in and he made sure the Jews could never build it again putting a dome on top sealing it. We are the temple of God, the dwelling place of God on earth. That is how I read the Bible.

 

[David Kent]

Does anyone have any links to any of the church fathers writing extensively about revelation? My impression is they did not know what to do with the book, did not understand it at all, some considered it not worthy to be in the canon. But what I do not find anywhere, although I have not looked everywhere, is where they expressed a futuristic view. What am I missing in their writings? (Leave out which caesar John was exiled under.=

The earliest commentary still in existence is by Victorinus
Victorinus; the author, as before observed, of the earliest profest and continuous Apocalyptic Commentary now extant; and who died by martyrdom under the persecution of Diocletian. His Commentary is noticed by Jerome, who speaks of it as one of millennarian views. [57] And hence has arisen a doubt as to the genuineness of the Treatise still extant, that goes under the name of Victorinus’ Treatise on the Apocalypse; containing as it does, at its conclusion, a distinct anti-millennarian declaration. [58] But the objection vanishes on examination; for various indubitable millennarian intimations occur in the body of the Commentary: [59] and the anti-millennarian passage is an evident interpolation by another hand, probably Jerome’s own; [60] as well as one or two shorter passages elsewhere. [61] Moreover in Ambrose Ansbert I have observed a reference to the true Victorinus’ statement on a rather singular point; which precise statement we find in the extant Commentary. [62] - In the edition given in the Bibliotheca Patrum Maxima, now before me, there is the farther disadvantage of transposition of various parts of the Comment from their right places. But the Apocalypse itself makes the rectification of this easy, as Victorinus’ is evidently an orderly Comment on it. - I have only further to premise, that the work is very short, occupying but seven folio pages, or fourteen columns in the Bibliotheca, Vol. iii. pp. 414-421. Of these fourteen columns, three and a half are devoted to the Apocalyptic introductory Vision and Epistles to the Seven Churches; three more to the Apocalyptic scenery; four to the Seals, Trumpets, and Witnesses; two to the Vision of the Dragon and the two Beasts; and one only to all the rest: herein well agreeing with what Cassiodorus says of it, that it only explained the more difficult passages. [63] - I now proceed to give an abstract of it: and this somewhat at large, as due to its chronological interest.

At Its opening Victorinus dwells on the particulars of Christ’s first appearance to St. John: - his head and hair white marking the antiquity of the Ancient of Days, for the head of Christ is God; and perhaps with reference, in the wool that it is compared with, to the sheep his members, in the snow to the multitude of baptismal candidates, white as snow-flakes from heaven: his face as the sun serving not only to express his glory, but the fact of his having risen, and set, and risen again in life on this world; his long priestly robe marking his priesthood; his zone the golden choir of the saints; his breasts the two Testaments, whence his people’s nourishment; and the sword from his mouth his preached word, by which men shall be judged and Antichrist slain: his voice being likened to many waters with reference not only to its power, as that of many people, but perhaps too to the baptismal waters of salvation issuing from him; and his feet to brass glowing from the furnace, in reference to the apostles purified in the furnace of affliction, by whom he walks as it were in his preached gospel through the world. - Then, after a short notice of the Epistles to the Seven Churches, (which seven he explains as representatives of the Church Universal, [64] ) he proceeds to the second series of visions, on the door being opened in heaven, and John called up thither: the heaven once shut having by Christ’s satisfaction been opened; and in St. John’s person, originally of the circumcision, but now a preacher of the New Testament, it being apparent that alike the faithful of either dispensation were now invited. [65] In the heavenly scene presented to John’s view, the throne was that of Divine royalty and judgment; its jasper color, as of water, signifying God’s earlier judgment by the waters of the deluge; its fiery sardine color that to come by fire; and the sea before the throne the gift of baptism, and offer of salvation through it, previous to judgment. The twenty-four elders he explains as the twelve patriarchs and twelve apostles, seated on thrones of judgment: agreeably to the patriarchal privilege, “Dan shall judge his people,” and the apostolic, “Ye shall sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel;” - while the four living creatures typified the four evangelists, and their preaching of the gospel: the eyes within signifying the insight of that preaching into man’s heart; and the six wings of each (twenty-four in all) having reference to the twenty-four books of the Old Testament, because it is only by help of the previous testimonies of those books that the Gospel can fly abroad. - The voices and thunderings from the throne meant God’s preachings, and threats, and notices of Christ’s coming to judgment; the seven torches of fire the Spirit, granted to men in virtue of Christ’s crucifixion. - As to the seven-sealed book, it was the book of the Old Testament; a book, with its prophecies of things to occur in the last times, [66] opened by none but Christ: who alone, as the lamb that was slain, could fulfill its types and prophecies; alone as a lion, and through death, conquer death for man. Also the saints’ new song of thanksgiving had reference to the new salvation and new blessings, now imparted to believers, especially of the glorious promised kingdom. Even if the opening of the Seals were simultaneous, (?) yet did the arrangement of them indicate order; the first Seal indicating what took place first, [67] the foreshadowing of things that were to be in the last times.

 

[David Kent]

Victorinus, continued
Arrived thus at the opening of the Seals, Victorinus explains the four horses and riders of the first four Seals as indicating respectively the triumphant progress of the Gospel, begun from after Christ’s ascension, [68] and the wars, famines, [69] and pestilences, [70] which Christ said would precede his second coming: also the fifth Seal’s souls under the altar, as marking the continuous persecutions and martyrdoms of Christ’s saints; for whose consolation, till the last great day of retribution, white robes, or joys of the Holy Spirit, are given: the region under the brazen altar of vision figuring the place under-ground where the separate spirits rest; [71] while the place of the golden altar (as being that to which our offerings of prayer and praise are brought) [72] typified heaven. Further, the earthquake of the sixth Seal he makes to be the last persecution: [73] that wherein the darkening of the true doctrine to the unfaithful would answer to the eclipsed sun in the vision, and the bloodshed of martyr-saints to the moon like blood: the falling away of vain professors from the Church, under force of persecution, fulfilling the symbol of the falling stars from heaven; and the removal of the Church itself from public sight that of the rolling away of the figured firmament. [74] - In the sealing vision, Apoc. vii., next following, the four angels of the winds (the same as the four winds of Apoc. ix. 14, bound in the Euphrates [75] signified four nations, (nations being ruled over by angels,) who were not to transgress their limits till they should come in the last æra with the Antichrist; the Angel from the East meaning Elias; who would anticipate the times of Antichrist, turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, (i.e. of the Jews to the Gentile believers,) and convert to the faith both many of Israel, [76] and a great multitude of Gentiles: of all whom, now united in one as God’s elect, the white robes signified their washing in the blood of the Lamb, and subsequent preservation of the grace then given. [77] - In Apoc. viii. the half-hour’s silence figured the beginning of eternal rest; one half-hour only being mentioned, to signify the subject’s then breaking off. For chronological order is not followed in the Apocalypse: [78] but the Holy Spirit, when he has come to the chronological end, returns often, and repeats, by the way of supplement.

Next comes the vision of the incense-offering Angel. Victorinus supposes this incense-offering to depict the prayers of saints: (specially, on Antichrist’s reign approaching, the prayer that they may not enter into temptation the Angel being figured, because Angels offer the prayers of the Church, as well as pour out wrath on Antichrist’s kingdom; which wrath was signified alike in the seven trumpets and seven vials, the one set of symbolizations supplying what was omitted in the other. [79] - As to the particular subjects of these Trumpets and Vials, he does not unfold it in detail. He only generally says of them, that they depict “either the ravages of plagues sent on the world, or the madness of Antichrist, or a diminishing of the peoples, or the variety and difference of the plagues, [80] or the hope of the saints’ kingdom, or the ruin of states, or the destruction of the great city, Babylon, - i.e. the Roman.” And just expounding, as he passes, the warning cry of the eagle flying in mid-heaven, after the fourth trumpet-woe, to mean the Holy Spirit’s warning voice to men by the mouth of the two prophets, against the wrath to come in the impending plagues, he so proceeds to the Angel vision of Apoc. x.

The first part of which vision he makes refer, as a parenthesis, to St. John personally. The Angel is explained to be Christ; the open book in his hand the Apocalypse revealed to John; his lion-like voice, that declaring that now only is the time of repentance and hope; the seven thunders the mysteries of the future spoken through the prophets by the divine septiform Spirit; which voices John was not to write, because, as an apostle, of higher functions than that of interpreting Scripture mysteries; an office this latter belonging rather to Church subordinate functionaries afterwards. [81] Further, the charge to eat the book, and preach again to peoples and tongues, Victorinus explains of St. John’s returning personally on Domitian’s death to Ephesus, and publishing the Apocalypse; [82] also his taking the measuring reed with which to measure the Apocalyptic temple and altar, of St. John’s further publishing his Gospel: [83] whereby, and by the creed laid down in it, [84] the orthodox and faithful were marked out and defined as true Church-worshippers; and heretics, like Valentinus, Ebion, and Cerinthus, as to be excluded from the Church.

On the two Apocalyptic Witnesses Victorinus supposes a passing, in the resumed figurations of the future, into the last hebdomad of the last times; [85] during the former 31/2 years of which Christ’s two witnesses, Elijah and Jeremiah, [86] would prophesy: - these witnesses to be killed in Jerusalem (called Sodom and Egypt) by the Beast from the abyss, Antichrist, at the commencement of his 31/2 years’ reign next succeeding, after many plagues inflicted on the world, answering to the fire out of the mouths in the symbol: but to rise again on the fourth day after; the fourth, not the third, so as not to equal Christ.

So he comes to the vision of the Dragon and Woman, Apoc. xii.; or rather to the concluding verse of Apoc. xi., about the temple appearing opened, and the ark appearing, which he connects with it: to the chronological retrogression in which, from the last times previously depicted, he calls especial notice. [87] For he construes the Woman to signify the Judæo-Christian Church of the Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles, [88] (like the sun glorious in hope of the resurrection, like the moon bright even when to man’s sight dark in death, and only waning to grow again,) travailing with desire of Christ’s birth out of the Jews’ nation, according to the promise. Then in Christ’s birth, resurrection, and ascension, in spite of the Dragon or Devil, he sees fulfilled the mystic child’s rapture to God’s throne: the Dragon’s color red being explained as that of a murderer from the beginning; the third of stars swept by his tail, as the third part of men, or rather of angels, seduced by him; and his seven heads and ten hors, as of the same significancy with the Beast’s seven heads and ten horns, of which more presently. - Then the time changes. [89] The woman fleeing into the desert is the Church, made up or inclusive of the 144,000, [90] now in simply Christian guise: being forced by the Dragon’s flood-like armies of persecution into mountains and deserts; and upheld in her flight by the two wings of the two witnesses. [91] The Dragon’s fall from heaven, or interdiction from there appearing as before, [92] is explained as following Elias’ 31/2 years of witnessing. [93] and being the beginning of Antichrist. - For he (the Dragon) then stood on the sand of the sea, [94] as if to evoke him: the Antichrist, accordantly with St. Paul’s prophecy to the Thessalonians, having to rise from hell. [95] As regarded the Beast, or Antichrist, his likeness to the leopard signified the variety of nations that would be in the kingdom; his seven heads both Rome’s seven hills, and also seven Roman Emperors; [96] viz. Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, (which five had fallen at the time of the Apocalypse,) the sixth Domitian then reigning, the seventh Nerva, who was to continue but a short time, (for he reigned but one year and four months,) and the eighth Nero; who as a previous Roman Emperor, might be called one of (or of the same body with) the seven. [97] Of this Nero St. Paul spoke, when he said, “The mystery of iniquity doth already work,” for Nero was then reigning: and, having had his throat cut, and so his head wounded to death, he was to revive and re-appear as Antichrist. - Victorinus notes his Jewish as well as Roman connection. He would appear both under a different name, and in a different character from before. Professing before the Jews to be the Christ, with a view to gain them, and instead of patronizing idolatry, now inculcating the religion of the circumcision, he would by them be received as Christ: (a king and a Christ worthy of them!) moreover, whereas once most impure, now renouncing all desire of women, and so fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy. [98] - His number 666 is explained as some name of Greek numerals to that amount; and two solutions offered, veiled in a corrupt text, yet not I think undecipherable: [99] one, antemov, perhaps Victorinus’ own; the other, genshrikov, interpolated by some later copyist. [100] - Of his ally the False Prophet the two horns like a lamb’s signified his assuming the form of a just man; the fire from heaven that same which sorcerers seem to men’s eyes even now to evoke; the Beast’s image a golden statue of Antichrist: which image the False Prophet would get placed in the temple of Jerusalem, and from which Satan will utter oracles. - So will there be the abomination of desolation in the worship of idols instead of himself, and the introduction of heresy into Churches; [101] the desolation, because many men, previously stable, will by these false signs and portents be turned from the faith. - As to the ten kings, Victorinus says that they would have already received royal power, when Antichrist should either have set out from the East Romewards, or from Rome Eastwards; [102] and three of them would be eradicated by him, and the other seven become his subjects, and also the haters and burners of the harlot city, Rome.

The Commentary now hurries to a conclusion. Of the three angels of Apoc. xiv., flying in mid-heaven, the first (the same as in Apoc. vii.) is Elias, anticipating Antichrist by his preaching; the other two, other prophets associated with him. The earth’s harvest and vintage are meant of the nations destined to perish at Christ’s coming: the blood shed to the extent of 1600 (= 4 x 400) stadia, bloodshed in all the four parts of the world. The seven vials are the same seven judgments before signified under the Trumpets; and poured out on the contumacious, [insubordinates], after the Church’s retirement from the scene into the wilderness. [103] Standing on the glassy sea signifies standing firm in baptismal faith. The Woman sitting on many waters, and borne by the seven-headed ten-horned Beast, is the Babylon alike of the Apocalypse, Isaiah, and Ezekiel; viz. the city ROME seated on the Devil, as before explained, of Rome red with the blood of saints: her wickedness having been consummated by a Decree of the Senate, [104] and extending to the prohibition of all preaching of the gospel in all nations. Then Christ (answering to him that was figured on the White Horse with his armies) will come and take the kingdom; a kingdom extending from the river even to the world’s end: the greater part of the earth being cleansed introductorily to it; the millennium itself not ending it. All souls of the nations will next, and finally, be called to judgment. [105]
E B Elliott.

Mr Elliott gives copious references but they are mainly in Greek and Latin

 

[claninja]

Revelation is not a book on its own, it has to fit in with the prophecies of Daniel. Revelation is past, then the stone without hands must have already filed the earth, Daniel 2 and the saints have taken the kingdom, Daniel 7.

The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. Are there christians all over the earth today? Or are they still only located in Jerusalem?

When would the kingdom be given to The saints? At the destruction of Jerusalem:

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Matthew 21:43 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 21:43 - English Standard Version

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The earliest commentary still in existence is by Victorinus
Victorinus; the author, as before observed, of the earliest profest and continuous Apocalyptic Commentary now extant; and who died by martyrdom under the persecution of Diocletian. His Commentary is noticed by Jerome, who speaks of it as one of millennarian views. [57] And hence has arisen a doubt as to the genuineness of the Treatise still extant, that goes under the name of Victorinus’ Treatise on the Apocalypse; containing as it does, at its conclusion, a distinct anti-millennarian declaration. [58] But the objection vanishes on examination; for various indubitable millennarian intimations occur in the body of the Commentary: [59] and the anti-millennarian passage is an evident interpolation by another hand, probably Jerome’s own; [60] as well as one or two shorter passages elsewhere. [61] Moreover in Ambrose Ansbert I have observed a reference to the true Victorinus’ statement on a rather singular point; which precise statement we find in the extant Commentary. [62] - In the edition given in the Bibliotheca Patrum Maxima, now before me, there is the farther disadvantage of transposition of various parts of the Comment from their right places. But the Apocalypse itself makes the rectification of this easy, as Victorinus’ is evidently an orderly Comment on it. - I have only further to premise, that the work is very short, occupying but seven folio pages, or fourteen columns in the Bibliotheca, Vol. iii. pp. 414-421. Of these fourteen columns, three and a half are devoted to the Apocalyptic introductory Vision and Epistles to the Seven Churches; three more to the Apocalyptic scenery; four to the Seals, Trumpets, and Witnesses; two to the Vision of the Dragon and the two Beasts; and one only to all the rest: herein well agreeing with what Cassiodorus says of it, that it only explained the more difficult passages. [63] - I now proceed to give an abstract of it: and this somewhat at large, as due to its chronological interest.

At Its opening Victorinus dwells on the particulars of Christ’s first appearance to St. John: - his head and hair white marking the antiquity of the Ancient of Days, for the head of Christ is God; and perhaps with reference, in the wool that it is compared with, to the sheep his members, in the snow to the multitude of baptismal candidates, white as snow-flakes from heaven: his face as the sun serving not only to express his glory, but the fact of his having risen, and set, and risen again in life on this world; his long priestly robe marking his priesthood; his zone the golden choir of the saints; his breasts the two Testaments, whence his people’s nourishment; and the sword from his mouth his preached word, by which men shall be judged and Antichrist slain: his voice being likened to many waters with reference not only to its power, as that of many people, but perhaps too to the baptismal waters of salvation issuing from him; and his feet to brass glowing from the furnace, in reference to the apostles purified in the furnace of affliction, by whom he walks as it were in his preached gospel through the world. - Then, after a short notice of the Epistles to the Seven Churches, (which seven he explains as representatives of the Church Universal, [64] ) he proceeds to the second series of visions, on the door being opened in heaven, and John called up thither: the heaven once shut having by Christ’s satisfaction been opened; and in St. John’s person, originally of the circumcision, but now a preacher of the New Testament, it being apparent that alike the faithful of either dispensation were now invited. [65] In the heavenly scene presented to John’s view, the throne was that of Divine royalty and judgment; its jasper color, as of water, signifying God’s earlier judgment by the waters of the deluge; its fiery sardine color that to come by fire; and the sea before the throne the gift of baptism, and offer of salvation through it, previous to judgment. The twenty-four elders he explains as the twelve patriarchs and twelve apostles, seated on thrones of judgment: agreeably to the patriarchal privilege, “Dan shall judge his people,” and the apostolic, “Ye shall sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel;” - while the four living creatures typified the four evangelists, and their preaching of the gospel: the eyes within signifying the insight of that preaching into man’s heart; and the six wings of each (twenty-four in all) having reference to the twenty-four books of the Old Testament, because it is only by help of the previous testimonies of those books that the Gospel can fly abroad. - The voices and thunderings from the throne meant God’s preachings, and threats, and notices of Christ’s coming to judgment; the seven torches of fire the Spirit, granted to men in virtue of Christ’s crucifixion. - As to the seven-sealed book, it was the book of the Old Testament; a book, with its prophecies of things to occur in the last times, [66] opened by none but Christ: who alone, as the lamb that was slain, could fulfill its types and prophecies; alone as a lion, and through death, conquer death for man. Also the saints’ new song of thanksgiving had reference to the new salvation and new blessings, now imparted to believers, especially of the glorious promised kingdom. Even if the opening of the Seals were simultaneous, (?) yet did the arrangement of them indicate order; the first Seal indicating what took place first, [67] the foreshadowing of things that were to be in the last times.

Where is futurism addressed in this? This is pretty much someone talking about Victorinus' writing, as far as I can see. He keeps saying what Victorinus said and not him saying it. Otherwise he has read it and decided what it all means, which misses the whole point in my view.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Victorinus, continued
Arrived thus at the opening of the Seals, Victorinus explains the four horses and riders of the first four Seals as indicating respectively the triumphant progress of the Gospel, begun from after Christ’s ascension, [68] and the wars, famines, [69] and pestilences, [70] which Christ said would precede his second coming: also the fifth Seal’s souls under the altar, as marking the continuous persecutions and martyrdoms of Christ’s saints; for whose consolation, till the last great day of retribution, white robes, or joys of the Holy Spirit, are given: the region under the brazen altar of vision figuring the place under-ground where the separate spirits rest; [71] while the place of the golden altar (as being that to which our offerings of prayer and praise are brought) [72] typified heaven. Further, the earthquake of the sixth Seal he makes to be the last persecution: [73] that wherein the darkening of the true doctrine to the unfaithful would answer to the eclipsed sun in the vision, and the bloodshed of martyr-saints to the moon like blood: the falling away of vain professors from the Church, under force of persecution, fulfilling the symbol of the falling stars from heaven; and the removal of the Church itself from public sight that of the rolling away of the figured firmament. [74] - In the sealing vision, Apoc. vii., next following, the four angels of the winds (the same as the four winds of Apoc. ix. 14, bound in the Euphrates [75] signified four nations, (nations being ruled over by angels,) who were not to transgress their limits till they should come in the last æra with the Antichrist; the Angel from the East meaning Elias; who would anticipate the times of Antichrist, turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, (i.e. of the Jews to the Gentile believers,) and convert to the faith both many of Israel, [76] and a great multitude of Gentiles: of all whom, now united in one as God’s elect, the white robes signified their washing in the blood of the Lamb, and subsequent preservation of the grace then given. [77] - In Apoc. viii. the half-hour’s silence figured the beginning of eternal rest; one half-hour only being mentioned, to signify the subject’s then breaking off. For chronological order is not followed in the Apocalypse: [78] but the Holy Spirit, when he has come to the chronological end, returns often, and repeats, by the way of supplement.

Next comes the vision of the incense-offering Angel. Victorinus supposes this incense-offering to depict the prayers of saints: (specially, on Antichrist’s reign approaching, the prayer that they may not enter into temptation the Angel being figured, because Angels offer the prayers of the Church, as well as pour out wrath on Antichrist’s kingdom; which wrath was signified alike in the seven trumpets and seven vials, the one set of symbolizations supplying what was omitted in the other. [79] - As to the particular subjects of these Trumpets and Vials, he does not unfold it in detail. He only generally says of them, that they depict “either the ravages of plagues sent on the world, or the madness of Antichrist, or a diminishing of the peoples, or the variety and difference of the plagues, [80] or the hope of the saints’ kingdom, or the ruin of states, or the destruction of the great city, Babylon, - i.e. the Roman.” And just expounding, as he passes, the warning cry of the eagle flying in mid-heaven, after the fourth trumpet-woe, to mean the Holy Spirit’s warning voice to men by the mouth of the two prophets, against the wrath to come in the impending plagues, he so proceeds to the Angel vision of Apoc. x.

The first part of which vision he makes refer, as a parenthesis, to St. John personally. The Angel is explained to be Christ; the open book in his hand the Apocalypse revealed to John; his lion-like voice, that declaring that now only is the time of repentance and hope; the seven thunders the mysteries of the future spoken through the prophets by the divine septiform Spirit; which voices John was not to write, because, as an apostle, of higher functions than that of interpreting Scripture mysteries; an office this latter belonging rather to Church subordinate functionaries afterwards. [81] Further, the charge to eat the book, and preach again to peoples and tongues, Victorinus explains of St. John’s returning personally on Domitian’s death to Ephesus, and publishing the Apocalypse; [82] also his taking the measuring reed with which to measure the Apocalyptic temple and altar, of St. John’s further publishing his Gospel: [83] whereby, and by the creed laid down in it, [84] the orthodox and faithful were marked out and defined as true Church-worshippers; and heretics, like Valentinus, Ebion, and Cerinthus, as to be excluded from the Church.

On the two Apocalyptic Witnesses Victorinus supposes a passing, in the resumed figurations of the future, into the last hebdomad of the last times; [85] during the former 31/2 years of which Christ’s two witnesses, Elijah and Jeremiah, [86] would prophesy: - these witnesses to be killed in Jerusalem (called Sodom and Egypt) by the Beast from the abyss, Antichrist, at the commencement of his 31/2 years’ reign next succeeding, after many plagues inflicted on the world, answering to the fire out of the mouths in the symbol: but to rise again on the fourth day after; the fourth, not the third, so as not to equal Christ.

So he comes to the vision of the Dragon and Woman, Apoc. xii.; or rather to the concluding verse of Apoc. xi., about the temple appearing opened, and the ark appearing, which he connects with it: to the chronological retrogression in which, from the last times previously depicted, he calls especial notice. [87] For he construes the Woman to signify the Judæo-Christian Church of the Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles, [88] (like the sun glorious in hope of the resurrection, like the moon bright even when to man’s sight dark in death, and only waning to grow again,) travailing with desire of Christ’s birth out of the Jews’ nation, according to the promise. Then in Christ’s birth, resurrection, and ascension, in spite of the Dragon or Devil, he sees fulfilled the mystic child’s rapture to God’s throne: the Dragon’s color red being explained as that of a murderer from the beginning; the third of stars swept by his tail, as the third part of men, or rather of angels, seduced by him; and his seven heads and ten hors, as of the same significancy with the Beast’s seven heads and ten horns, of which more presently. - Then the time changes. [89] The woman fleeing into the desert is the Church, made up or inclusive of the 144,000, [90] now in simply Christian guise: being forced by the Dragon’s flood-like armies of persecution into mountains and deserts; and upheld in her flight by the two wings of the two witnesses. [91] The Dragon’s fall from heaven, or interdiction from there appearing as before, [92] is explained as following Elias’ 31/2 years of witnessing. [93] and being the beginning of Antichrist. - For he (the Dragon) then stood on the sand of the sea, [94] as if to evoke him: the Antichrist, accordantly with St. Paul’s prophecy to the Thessalonians, having to rise from hell. [95] As regarded the Beast, or Antichrist, his likeness to the leopard signified the variety of nations that would be in the kingdom; his seven heads both Rome’s seven hills, and also seven Roman Emperors; [96] viz. Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, (which five had fallen at the time of the Apocalypse,) the sixth Domitian then reigning, the seventh Nerva, who was to continue but a short time, (for he reigned but one year and four months,) and the eighth Nero; who as a previous Roman Emperor, might be called one of (or of the same body with) the seven. [97] Of this Nero St. Paul spoke, when he said, “The mystery of iniquity doth already work,” for Nero was then reigning: and, having had his throat cut, and so his head wounded to death, he was to revive and re-appear as Antichrist. - Victorinus notes his Jewish as well as Roman connection. He would appear both under a different name, and in a different character from before. Professing before the Jews to be the Christ, with a view to gain them, and instead of patronizing idolatry, now inculcating the religion of the circumcision, he would by them be received as Christ: (a king and a Christ worthy of them!) moreover, whereas once most impure, now renouncing all desire of women, and so fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy. [98] - His number 666 is explained as some name of Greek numerals to that amount; and two solutions offered, veiled in a corrupt text, yet not I think undecipherable: [99] one, antemov, perhaps Victorinus’ own; the other, genshrikov, interpolated by some later copyist. [100] - Of his ally the False Prophet the two horns like a lamb’s signified his assuming the form of a just man; the fire from heaven that same which sorcerers seem to men’s eyes even now to evoke; the Beast’s image a golden statue of Antichrist: which image the False Prophet would get placed in the temple of Jerusalem, and from which Satan will utter oracles. - So will there be the abomination of desolation in the worship of idols instead of himself, and the introduction of heresy into Churches; [101] the desolation, because many men, previously stable, will by these false signs and portents be turned from the faith. - As to the ten kings, Victorinus says that they would have already received royal power, when Antichrist should either have set out from the East Romewards, or from Rome Eastwards; [102] and three of them would be eradicated by him, and the other seven become his subjects, and also the haters and burners of the harlot city, Rome.

The Commentary now hurries to a conclusion. Of the three angels of Apoc. xiv., flying in mid-heaven, the first (the same as in Apoc. vii.) is Elias, anticipating Antichrist by his preaching; the other two, other prophets associated with him. The earth’s harvest and vintage are meant of the nations destined to perish at Christ’s coming: the blood shed to the extent of 1600 (= 4 x 400) stadia, bloodshed in all the four parts of the world. The seven vials are the same seven judgments before signified under the Trumpets; and poured out on the contumacious, [insubordinates], after the Church’s retirement from the scene into the wilderness. [103] Standing on the glassy sea signifies standing firm in baptismal faith. The Woman sitting on many waters, and borne by the seven-headed ten-horned Beast, is the Babylon alike of the Apocalypse, Isaiah, and Ezekiel; viz. the city ROME seated on the Devil, as before explained, of Rome red with the blood of saints: her wickedness having been consummated by a Decree of the Senate, [104] and extending to the prohibition of all preaching of the gospel in all nations. Then Christ (answering to him that was figured on the White Horse with his armies) will come and take the kingdom; a kingdom extending from the river even to the world’s end: the greater part of the earth being cleansed introductorily to it; the millennium itself not ending it. All souls of the nations will next, and finally, be called to judgment. [105]
E B Elliott.

Mr Elliott gives copious references but they are mainly in Greek and Latin

The problem this is NOT what Victorinus wrote. It is what Elliot tells us he wrote and he is putting his own slant on it. How do I know? The Antichrist is not mentioned in Revelation. Not at all. So this is not the writings of a man from that century. It is the writing of Elliott writing about what he thinks the man said. There is no Antichrist in Revelation. Not at all. That shows me the prejudice of Elliott. I am sure you like him as his prejudice agrees with yours. And Rome was never the bride or wife of God and so cannot be a harlot.

 

[Biblewriter]

No one is 'changing' the word to 'he'. the verb, in greek, does not specify 'it', 'he', or 'she'. The problem with the traditional interpretation is the greek word 'for'. This allows the 'was seen' to refer not to the preceding noun of 'revelation' but to 'John’.

This not only works, it helps clarify the greater context. In the beginning of this book, Irenaeus mentions ancient copies of revelation. If the 'that was seen not long ago' was referring to the vision itself, that doesn't make sense with the term 'ancient' copies. However, if the 'that was seen not long ago' refers to John, then the 'ancient copies' makes more sense, as the original revelation would have preceded 'john being seen not long ago' by about 20-30 years.

"For if it was necessary for John to reveal the name of the beast in the present time, he would have done so, for he was seen not long ago."

My first observation is actually a question. Are you a student of the Greek language, and do you actually have a copy of the original Greek, as composed by Irenaeus, or are you simply parroting what someone else said?

And my second observation is that it is nothing short of absurd to quibble about whether the Greek word translated "ancient" could refer to copies that were, at a maximum about 90 years old or copies that were, at a maximum, 130 years old.

It’s not hard proof, it’s an assumption. For it to be hard proof, there would have to be some other source, whether secular historian, church historian, or archeology that showed there were mines on Patmos...

The dating of books is actually very important. Establishing that it is possibly not a part of the original acts of John decreases its reliability as a factual source and shows it is not hard proof...

The Syriac history of John the son of Zebedee, dating as early as 4th century ad, was not based off Irenaeus. It states John was banished by Nero. Can we take this as hard proof?

You are avoiding the FACT which I PROVED, which is NOT that any of these other writers was correct, but that they did NOT base their accounts on what Irenaeus said, as you and others have claimed.



You keep saying ‘proved’. You have not proved anything. You’ve only built a case on assumptions with evidence to support your view. It’s a decent case, but not without flaws. It does not 100% prove your view.[/QUOTE]

 

[Biblewriter]

he/it is the noun that was seen, as indicated by the preposition, and it is he/it that causes this to be debatable. Was it seen in the reign of Domitian, or was he seen in the reign of Domitian?

Have you personally examined the Greek text composed by Irenaeus, and are you sufficiently familiar with the Greek language to evaluate this claim, or are you simply relying on what someone else said?