Losing faith in "faith alone"

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St_Worm2

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It's not just it's abuse, it's often incoherent in the modern world, as witnessed by the vast number of educated people who are no longer Christians, or who are minimally affiliated.
There are many within the church who are not Christians and never were/never will be (Matt 13's "tares", for instance .. Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43), and far fewer than that among those who left the church/left whatever other kind of involvement they had with Christianity .. e.g. 1 John 2:19.

The fact is, 'true' believers do not leave the faith, at least not permanently, or the Lord was mistaken when He said things like this:

“ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day". ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)

John 10
26 You do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
The Church is failing to speak the language of ordinary human beings, and instead insisting that modern man come of age must relate to early bronze age stories, or be damned. It seems a strange hill to die on.
Which stories are those? (IOW, stories from the OT that all of our churches/denominations teach we must either "relate to" or "be damned")

BTW, I've heard that there are some iron age stories that discuss salvation, ones that can help us discern what the bronze age stories really meant. Maybe those should be considered as well? ;)
Today we read the story of Genesis in church and it has demonstrably fanciful tales in it, such as the notion that snakes eat dirt. It is obviously a myth, even putting aside the question of evolution.
Come on Dragon, I remember learning about the Lord's curses in Genesis early on in Sunday School. But you're the first person I've ever known who believes that part of the curse He levied against the serpent was that he would actually get his sustenance from eating dust (though I am certain you're not alone :rolleyes:). Even as a young child (as well a non-Christian at that point I might add) I realized that wasn't what the Lord meant, so it's difficult for me to believe that an educated and clearly intelligent man such as yourself would come to such a conclusion :scratch:

--David

Micah 7
17 They will lick the dust like a serpent,
Like reptiles of the earth.
They will come trembling out of their fortresses;
To the LORD our God they will come in dread

And they will be afraid before You.
.
 
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FireDragon76

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We are not a "gay church". Don't buy into the polemics of those people an agenda who are embittered because their voice is not the only voice, which is why many left. The old game of power, in the end. They can't stand a big tent where we agree to disagree about things where we have cases of bound conscience, where many voices are at the table.
 
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FireDragon76

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There are many within the church who are not Christians and never were/never will be (Matt 13's "tares", for instance .. Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43), and far fewer than that among those who left the church/left whatever other kind of involvement they had with Christianity .. e.g. 1 John 2:19.

The fact is, 'true' believers do not leave the faith, at least not permanently, or the Lord was mistaken when He said things like this:

“ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day". ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)

John 10
26 You do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Which stories are those? (IOW, stories from the OT that all of our churches/denominations teach we must either "relate to" or "be damned")

BTW, I've heard that there are some iron age stories that discuss salvation, ones that can help us discern what the bronze age stories really meant. Maybe those should be considered as well? ;)

Come on Dragon, I remember learning about the Lord's curses in Genesis early on in Sunday School. But you're the first person I've ever known who believes that part of the curse He levied against the serpent was that he would actually get his sustenance from eating dust (though I am certain you are not alone :rolleyes:). Even as a young child (as well a non-Christian at that point I might add) I realized that wasn't what the Lord meant, so it's difficult for me to believe that an educated and clearly intelligent man such as yourself would come to such a conclusion :scratch:

--David

Micah 7
17 They will lick the dust like a serpent,
Like reptiles of the earth.
They will come trembling out of their fortresses;
To the LORD our God they will come in dread

And they will be afraid before You.
.

But ancient people understood that Genesis story of the snake literally. Christians today just read it allegorically, because the literal meaning is absurd. Which is my point. Religion is a game of trying to make sense of a bunch of old myths. Maybe God speaks to us through that, but let's keep it real what we are reading.

Imagine a world where nobody really pays attention to snakes because they are scary, it's pre-scientific. They could indeed believe that snakes ate dust. Aristotle taught that kind of nonsense.

BTw, "licking the dust" probably refers to misunderstanding of how snakes smell. They use their tongue and the have specialized organs in their mouth for doing that, drawing in molecules from the air. Snakes are not evil instruments of satan, but are wonderfully made organisms that are part of the web of life that sustains us. We didn't get that from the Bible, we got that from science.
 
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HypnoToad

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But ancient people understood that Genesis story of the snake literally. Christians today just read it allegorically, because the literal meaning is absurd. Which is my point.
An account being literal doesn't mean it's devoid of figures of speech. "Eating dust" not being a literal expression does NOT equate to "oh, the story must be a myth".
 
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FireDragon76

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An account being literal doesn't mean it's devoid of figures of speech. "Eating dust" not being a literal expression does NOT equate to "oh, the story must be a myth".

It's not a figure of speech. I see no evidence to assume that. Should we assume the virgin birth or resurrection is just a metaphor as well? Now you are in 19th century liberalism territory. Which proves my point. When things get tough, we drum up the metaphorical reading.
 
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HypnoToad

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BTw, "licking the dust" probably refers to misunderstanding of how snakes smell. They use their tongue and the have specialized organs in their mouth for doing that, drawing in molecules from the air. Snakes are not evil instruments of satan, but are wonderfully made organisms that are part of the web of life that sustains us. We didn't get that from the Bible, we got that from science.
The Bible never says "snakes are evil instruments of Satan".
 
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FireDragon76

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The Bible never says "snakes are evil instruments of Satan".

No, but God curses the snake and implies it eats dust, and snakes have forever been associated since with satan.

Personally, I believe it's just a bronze age story about Marduk slaying Tiamat and transposing it into a Jewish context. They retain the patriarchal and ophidophobic prejudices against women and snakes. They probably even borrowed it from their babylonian captors.
 
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HypnoToad

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It's not a figure of speech. I see no evidence to assume that.
The fact that snakes don't literally eat dirt is no evidence to see it as a figure of speech? Really? Add to that the fact that it is clearly used as a figure of speech elsewhere in the Old Testament - Psalm 72:9, Isaiah 49:23.

Should we assume the virgin birth or resurrection is just a metaphor as well?
You are confusing a symbolic phrase with an entire account being mythical. Try again.

When things get tough, we drum up the metaphorical reading.
I don't see anything getting tough.
 
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FireDragon76

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This "metaphorical" thinking can be quite dangerous. It inspires people to think that death is just a metaphor for a better world, so blowing yourself up and killing people = paradise. It's only a question of how far you are willing to take it.
 
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amariselle

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No, but God curses the snake and implies it eats dust, and snakes have forever been associated since with satan.

Personally, I believe it's just a bronze age story about Marduk slaying Tiamat and transposing it into a Jewish context. They retain the patriarchal and ophidophobic prejudices against women and snakes. They probably even borrowed it from their babylonian captors.

So, if the OT (specifically Genesis) is just a Jewish version of Babylonian paganism, (which Scripture actually condemns) why believe anything the Bible has to say?
 
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So, if the OT (specifically Genesis) is just a Jewish version of Babylonian paganism, (which Scripture actually condemns) why believe anything the Bible has to say?

I don't know.

Because Jesus is cool and awesome despite the quasi-pagan backstory?

Maybe I too am hopelessly sentimental. But I recognize it doesn't inherently produce anything righteous in me to go to church and go through the motions of religion. I'm a scoundrel, as are all religious people. But church has tasty treats and kind people, so I continue to go... and struggle.
 
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Afra

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John Chrysostom was not Jesus, and he was separated from Paul by hundreds of years.
Obviously.

Catholicism rests on believing half a dozen improbable things before breakfast.
Nonsense.

I prefer just to stick to faith in Jesus.
That's all well and good, but our Lord Jesus does not teach Sola Fide. Here is what our Lord Jesus said:

To the Church in Ephesus
2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.

2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

To the Church in Smyrna
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slandera]">[a] of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

To the Church in Pergamum
12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faithb]">[b] even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

To the Church in Thyatira
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rulec]">[c] them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

The Parable of the Ten Virgins
25 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lampsa]">[a] and went to meet the bridegroom.b]">[b] 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsc]">[c] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,d]">[d] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.e]">[e] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f]">[f] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

You can't explain all of that (and plenty more) away with some lame "prescriptive v. descriptive" argument.
 
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amariselle

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This "metaphorical" thinking can be quite dangerous. It inspires people to think that death is just a metaphor for a better world, so blowing yourself up and killing people = paradise. It's only a question of how far you are willing to take it.

Is the above written to suggest that those who take the Bible “literally” rather than seeing it as a collection of “fanciful tales” and “myths” are just one step away from being the Christian version of Islamic terrorists?
 
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amariselle

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I don't know.

Because Jesus is cool and awesome despite the quasi-pagan backstory?

Maybe I too am hopelessly sentimental. But I recognize it doesn't inherently produce anything righteous in me to go to church and go through the motions of religion. I'm a scoundrel, as are all religious people. But church has tasty treats and kind people, so I continue to go... and struggle.

Alright. Thanks for explaining more about your view.
 
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Afra

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Considering Luther was born hundreds of years after John Chyrsostom, I will have to conclude Luther picked up on his doctrine of justified by faith alone.


Selectively quoting? I provided in context and multiple quoted text.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said Chrysostom has the same conclusions Luther did looking at the same epistles.

Here's more evidence:

Here is another faith alone from Chrysostom's homily on Colossians:

For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.Romans 15:9 For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these.

For, on a sudden, to have brought menmore senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and richesof mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.

They were wont to worship stones and the earth; but they learned that themselves are better both than the heaven and the sun, and that the whole world serves them; they were captives and prisoners of the devil: on a sudden they are placed above his head, and lay commands on him and scourge him: from being captives and slaves to demons, they have become the body of The Master of the Angels and the Archangels; from not knowing even what God is, they have become all at once sharers even in God's throne.

Chyrsostom Homily 5 on Colossians
Colossians 1:26-28
DID ANY CHURCH FATHERS TEACH SOLA FIDE? RESPONSE TO A CLAIM
 
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FireDragon76

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[Staff edit].

I'm talking about talking snakes, not sun gods. I think people attributed divinity to Christ because he expanded their horizons of what it meant to be human. He expanded their sense of compassion in a world that was often pittiless and oppressive. I also do believe in the resurrection, in the sense that the Christian community experienced his presence after the crucifixion.

I am not a jesus mythicist.
 
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amariselle

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Nope. I'm talking about talking snakes, not sun gods. I think people attributed divinity to Christ because he expanded their horizons of what it meant to be human. He expanded their sense of compassion in a world that was often pittiless and oppressive. I also do believe in the resurrection, in the sense that the Christian community experienced his presence after the crucifixion.

I am not a jesus mythicist.

Jesus Himself said He was God. No one “attributed” that to Him.

You don’t believe Him?
 
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FireDragon76

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Jesus Himself said He was God. No one “attributed” that to Him.

You don’t believe Him?

The accounts we have are oral traditions remembered by the Christian community. So it's not a matter of "not believing him". What we have in the Bible is collective memory of various communities, not necessarily the actual words of Christ.

Though I do agree with John A.T. Robinson that the Gospel of John was written at an early date, perhaps the earliest Gospel. But I don't necessarily interpret it in the same sense evangelical Christians do, as systematic theology. It's a mystical account of one mans intimacy with God, primarily.
 
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amariselle

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The accounts we have are oral traditions remembered by the Christian community. So it's not a matter of "not believing him". What we have in the Bible is collective memory of various communities, not necessarily the actual words of Christ.

Though I do agree with John A.T. Robinson that the Gospel of John was written at an early date, perhaps the earliest Gospel. But I don't necessarily interpret it in the same sense evangelical Christians do, as systematic theology. It's a mystical account of one mans intimacy with God, primarily.

So, how do you know Jesus even existed then?
 
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