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Coccyx - tale of a creationist disinformation post

Ophiolite

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I will agree that the field of evolution is based on a lie (or, more to the point, magic and historical philosophy), as are many of its "Icons", such as Haeckel's embryos, peppered moths, vestigial organs, whale evolution, and junk DNA, to name a few. But after all those embarrassments, the myth that man and ape are 95% genetically similar is still being touted as fact, years after it was demonstrated that there are millions of differences between the two. Even evolutionary geology is based on flaky theories that are easily rebutted.

Dan
Well Dan, we'll just have to disagree about that. As a graduate geologist and an autodidact in evolutionary biology I see no magic, but mountains of evidence in a variety of fields, that cross validate the theory. I sense you are getting your information from creationist websites and publications - these are not necessarily reliable when it comes to an objective examination of that evidence.

It would be entertaining, if you are interested, to take a look at the easy rebutall of any "flaky evolutionary geology" theory you care to select. I'd be happy to address whatever evidence or argument you have that you feel effectively rebuts the theory, or - should it so arise - to concede that you have a point.
 
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Abraxos

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I'm looking at the pictures we were discussing, that were used in modern textbooks. Of course the different species are demonstrably different, no one's claiming otherwise.... they also show similarities, which Haeckel grossly exaggerated in an attempt to demonstrate his ideas.

I'll be honest though chief, I couldn't care less if Haeckel lied, exaggerated or molested a turtle. Embryology has moved on since 1847, we know he was wrong, now where's that picture...


279742_dfc87c5575cec2c65b78352237004824.jpg
I already know you don't care if Haeckal was a liar - but I'm still not seeing what Haeckel "grossly exaggerated" in his pictures. I'm no art expert, but I'd think exaggerating certain anatomical features meant actually exaggerating certain anatomical features - not drawing them similar to the human embryo in an attempt to push an idea. Alas, an idea that doth exist in thou imaginings, not in actual facts.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Well Dan, we'll just have to disagree about that. As a graduate geologist and an autodidact in evolutionary biology I see no magic, but mountains of evidence in a variety of fields, that cross validate the theory. I sense you are getting your information from creationist websites and publications - these are not necessarily reliable when it comes to an objective examination of that evidence.

It would be entertaining, if you are interested, to take a look at the easy rebutall of any "flaky evolutionary geology" theory you care to select. I'd be happy to address whatever evidence or argument you have that you feel effectively rebuts the theory, or - should it so arise - to concede that you have a point.

Are you an "evolutionary geologist" or a regular old geologist? ;)
 
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Brightmoon

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I already know you don't care if Haeckal was a liar - but I'm still not seeing what Haeckel "grossly exaggerated" in his pictures. I'm no art expert, but I'd think exaggerating certain anatomical features meant actually exaggerating certain anatomical features - not drawing them similar to the human embryo in an attempt to push an idea. Alas, an idea that doth exist in thou imaginings, not in actual facts.
Since nobody uses Haeckel’s drawings, so what! IIRC what he did was to use another mammal pharyngula instead of a human one. Not a big deal unless you’re an expert and can tell them apart (laymen can’t). Even when he got caught in the late 1800s, it was a tempest in a teapot . It’s not even that important now. Currently they use photos or they’ve been redrawn to be more accurate.

And what the heck is an evolutionary geologist? Geologists don’t confirm evolution, geneticists and biologists do.
 
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Bible Research Tools

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Bible Research Tools

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Did you miss my post...

I spent over an hour trying to find evidence that Haeckel's drawings are being used in those particular books with little luck.

Do you have the editions Luskin cited?

  • Sylvia S. Mader, Jeffrey A. Isaacson, Kimberly G. Lyle-Ippolito, Andrew T. Storfer, Inquiry Into Life (13th ed., McGraw Hill, 2011).
  • Sylvia S. Mader, Biology (McGraw Hill, 10th ed., 2010).
  • Sylvia S. Mader, Biology (McGraw Hill 2007).
Luskin was careful to exclude those with corrected texts.

I was only able to find the embryo pictures in Sylvia Mader's book and they don't use Haeckael's drawings. His grid pattern / layout is used but the modern drawings are anatomically correct.

haeckelmader2.jpg


And it's not as if they are promoting Haeckel's recapitulation theory is it?

Which edition?

I was under the impression Haeckel was criticized for exaggerating certain anatomical features to emphasize his ideas? What's the problem with similar - but anatomically correct - drawings being used to demonstrate the developmental similarities between various species?

I believe this was the 1997 article that got the ball rolling (FINALLY!):


If your article was misleading in this instance I'm dubious about it's other claims.

It is not misleading.

Dan
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You should take time out to read "The Origin of the Species or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".

Besides being a racist, Charlie was also a geologist.

You're pulling that old, beaten horse corpse out? Really?
 
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USincognito

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Psychology Today? Good choice. It is by far more scientific than Darwinism.

Care to actually address the content of that essay?

You should take time out to read "The Origin of the Species or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".

Besides being a racist,

Oooo! My favorite Creationist gambit. Tell us how many times did Darwin, and you can round it to the nearest ten, refer to humans in Origin.
 
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Ophiolite

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Are you an "evolutionary geologist" or a regular old geologist? ;)
Well, I used to be regular, but now not so much, though I've started eating All-Bran for breakfast and I hope that helps.
 
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USincognito

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Well, I used to be regular, but now not so much, though I've started eating All-Bran for breakfast and I hope that helps.

If you're serious about getting fiber...
 
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Brightmoon

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You should take time out to read "The Origin of the Species or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".

Besides being a racist, Charlie was also a geologist.






Dan
why do creationists keep spreading this lie. Darwin was a fervent abolitionist and unusually for someone of his social class in the 19th century , he actually learned taxidermy from a Black man . He hated slavery. Now as far as his usage of races in the title; modern scientists would probably say subspecies . Darwin thought that humans were a single species and also thought that societal inequalities were due to education ( or the lack there of).

Darwin actually figured out how atolls form so he could wear that geologist hat too
 
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sfs

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Oooo! My favorite Creationist gambit. Tell us how many times did Darwin, and you can round it to the nearest ten, refer to humans in Origin.
In all the times that creationists have tried this dodge -- quoting the title of a book that has nothing to do with races as if it proved Darwin a racist -- have you ever seen one retract the claim or apologize for spreading falsehoods?
 
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USincognito

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In all the times that creationists have tried this dodge -- quoting the title of a book that has nothing to do with races as if it proved Darwin a racist -- have you ever seen one retract the claim or apologize for spreading falsehoods?

Shall I round it to the nearest ten times? ;)
 
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pitabread

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I hope you don't mind if I present a different take on the scandal:

There's more than a little hyperbole in that account it seems.

I will research it.

Please do. If you're only getting creationist sources for it, you're getting a very slanted perception of the actual history.
 
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pitabread

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I was being sarcastic. It is common knowledge that Christians believe the bible above the theories of mere men. But no doubt Christians are also fallible in their interpretations.

That doesn't appear to be what AiG or the ICR believe. Like I said, creationism seems about protecting a very specific religious dogma from anything perceived as contradicting it. Nothing more.

I would be foolish to believe the flood happened in any way other than the way it is written.

The Flood as described by modern YECs is blatantly contradicted by every branch of natural science as well as social sciences (e.g. history/archaeology).

Evidence? You cannot be serious.

The Urey-Miller experiment demonstrated evidence for what it sought to demonstrate: the formation of organic compounds from precursors. In that respect, it was successful.

Try this article:

Not having seen the books in question myself, I can't comment.

Are you saying it proves evolution, or just the obvious microevolution part?

What does "proves evolution" mean? What do you think evolution is?

Should you not first prove that macroevolution has even occurred, before imagining transitional fossils?

Transitional fossils are evidence of evolutionary events that occurred in the past (namely the morphological changes that occurred throughout life's history). It's silly to demand that something be "proved" before one compiles evidence for the thing they are trying to demonstrate.

Over-representation of being proof of evolutionism.

I don't know what "evolutionism" is.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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I liked this part:

"The painstaking process of critical peer review and the demand for direct observation and demonstrative proof are supposed to avoid discrepancies in scientific reporting. In the case of Piltdown Man we are looking at a fraud that perpetuated itself in the corridors of academia for nearly half a century. "

So much for the PAL-review process . . .

That's lovely. Where did you find it?

I thought I had a reasonable grasp of the English language, until I read that gibberish.

Says the guy who thinks "evolutionism" is a word. :yawn:

If evolutionism wasn't such an easy beast to flog, they wouldn't get away with it.

More vacuous rhetoric. How typical.

Kent Hovind is not a scientist.

At least we can agree on that. You might want to tell some of your fellow Creationists that fact since they think he is.

Did you not see the lists in the link I provided? Futuyma? Miller? Prothero?

Given the rank dishonesty I've seen from Wells and Lawyer Luskin, I would want to actually see the page, in context, myself before arriving at any conclusions.

There are far more than those two.

Name three.

Tax-exempt donations? Big deal. Evolutionism has a lock on taxpayer funding, enforced by the power of the sword. In other words, I help fund that foolishness with my tax dollars, even though I despise everything it stands for.

Oh brother, an Austrian... The problem is that not all funding is from the government. That's a myth you guy spread. A decent amount of the funding comes from various foundations and trusts. And the thing is, the money follows success. Evolution and deep time produce results and data. Creationism produces people who want to blather about Haeckel and Piltdown rather than stuff from even the 2nd half of the 20th Century.

It is a dear friend.

How quaintly juvenile.
 
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USincognito

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I didn't say anything about Wells in that statement?

Are you asking me, because you are a huge Wells fan, you keep parroting "Icons" and references to Icons and the only high profile C/IDster who made a bid deal out of peppered moths recently was Wells.

If you have a vivid imagination, you can believe it.

More vacuous rhetoric.

Dr. Carl Werner, the physician, did a masterful job of exposing Gingrich's shenanigans. Don't you agree?

Thank you for admitting he has no expertise in paleontology or cetacean anatomy. What he exposed is the way science works and that Creationists are really impressed by YouTube videos, but don't spend much time actually reading the papers. Gingerich (with an "e" by the way) discusses the 1983 Science cover with Pakicetus on his website.
Philip D. Gingerich

The Pakicetus cover was painted by Karen Klitz of the University of Michigan Museum of Paleontology (now at U. C. Berkeley), and the Rodhocetus cover was drawn by John Klausmeyer of the University of Michigan Exhibit Museum. Based on what we know today, these animals were probably less different than shown here, and the hands and feet reconstructed for Pakicetus probably looked more like those now known for Rodhocetus.
The Pakicetus find in the 80s was thought to have a more aquatically adapted post-cranial anatomy because the head had so many cetacean characteristics.
Marmotism: Whale Evolution "Fraud" and Creationist Impotence!

In both the 1981 and 1983 papers, the authors are quite clear that nothing is known of the postcranial skeleton of Pakicetus (from the 1981 paper):

No postcranial remains can be referred to Pakicetus inachus at present.

However, the Pakicetus fossils did share some characteristics with other fossils believed to be cetacean at the time. So, clearly the editors at Science took some artistic license in representing a creature that was believed, at the time, to be an aquatic cetacean. But again, nowhere in the scientific descriptions of these fossils do the authors even speculate on the postcranial anatomy of Pakicetus.

And then, as Batten indicates, more fossils attributed to Pakicetus were described in 2001. Thewissen et al. published their research in the journal Nature in a paper entitled "Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls". According to the new evidence presented in this study (from the 2001 paper):

Taken together, the features of the skull indicate that pakicetids were terrestrial, and the locomotor skeleton displays running adaptations. Some features of the sense organs of pakicetids are also found in aquatic mammals, but they do not necessarily imply life in water. Pakicetids were terrestrial mammals, no more amphibious than a tapir.


In other words, what actual scientists found was that even though Pakicetus shared characteristics with cetaceans and artiodactyls, they were most likely not aquatic, but lived on land.

So, in light of new scientific evidence, Pakicetus was now believed to be terrestrial and not aquatic.​
By the way, have you seen these short segments?

Those and more are found in this article by Dr. Don Batten, PhD Univ. of Sydney

It's hilarious the way you try and argue with an actual scientist in a discussion of his field, yet you keep posting Creationists credentials as if that makes any difference. Not to put to fine a point on it, but why is Batten getting a PhD from the University of Sydney important enough to mention? It's almost as if you're trying to demonstrate the point I made the other day and you denied.
Irony.jpg


I suggest you actually read the blog entry I linked to above. He absolutely eviscerates Batten's garbage in that CMI essay.​
 
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