Why doesn't God just tell us which denomination is right?

[BobRyan]

Thanks now how about the other

define LOVE using Bible verses

1 John 5:2-3 "the IS the Love of God - that we keep His Commandments"

 

[BobRyan]

Through 2 decades of being a Christian, I have always been confused about the divisions in the church.
It was obvious to me that about any individual theological idea has opposing views that use the same bible to argue.
I wondered, why would God make his word so vague? Does he WANT us to be confused? No, Jesus said he desires UNITY among his people. So what's up with all the thousands of beliefs?

In fact the same question could be asked of the Jews at the time of Christ - divisions between various factions and all factions divided against Christ.

Christ said their problem is resolved "sola scriptura" in the example given in Mark 7

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

The way we can become united is in mutual LOVE...the greatest commandment.

Matt 22 "the GREATEST commandment is LOVE God with all your hear"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
Ex 20:6 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "if you LOVE Me - KEEP My Commandments"

Jer 31:31-33 "This IS the NEW Covenant -- ... I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

So now - the QUESTION ... "What would be the RESULT of doing that-- according to Christ"?

Answer: "Division".

Matt 10
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

Those who oppose the "prince of peace" as the Jews opposed Christ - will find cause for "division"

Question 2: "What does CHRIST say of the Jews?" their mission and their position?

"Salvation is of the JEWS" John 5

 

[BobRyan]

I take it the true church is the one you currently attend.

Each honest faithful Christian will/should claim that the church they attend -- the denomination to which they belong is the church or "denomination" with the best and most accurate set of Bible-based teachings/doctrines/theology.

Only the most worldly among us would argue "I know my denomination is teaching error and that the denomination-ABC accross the street actually has the Truth as it is in Jesus - but I prefer error so I stay here and besides all my family and friends are here ... we all enjoy and prefer error".

 

[BobRyan]

A NEW COMMANDMENT I give to you (my disciples) ... that you LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as I have LOVED you. BY THIS will ALL MEN KNOW THAT YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES, ... if you have LOVE for one another. John 15:34-35

LOVE is the true SIGN of the follower of Christ ...

Among the "commandments of God" in the NT - which one is the "FIRST commandment with a promise"? Eph 6:2

When Jesus says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "Which ones" -- what answer does Jesus Give in Matthew 19? (The same answer Paul gives in Romans 13) He quotes from the TEN Commandments.

So I begin with 1 John 5

This "IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

 

[BobRyan]

Seems like it would help us out a lot if God told everybody, "The Calvinists are right" (Or whichever denomination).

So many false teachings would be disproven in an instant, everybody would know which Church best aligns with God & His word...

So why not?

Been there.. done that.

BTW I assume you do not mean that one denomination is saved and all others lost. Christ said in John 16 "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" so then having less understanding of truth does not of itself make one lost. It is rejection of truth that does that.

I assume you mean "if God would come to Earth in the modern age and tell us " -- maybe in the form of some prophet?

Which of course groups like the Seventh-day Adventists claim He did that very thing.

And did that "solve the question" for "Everyone"?

No. We still have the divisions.

God told Noah that his religion was correct - but did that settle it for everyone else?

God told Moses and all Israel at Sinai that their religion was correct -- but did that settle it for everyone else?

God told John the baptizer that his religion was correct - but did all Israel listen?

Christ told His disciples that He was God the Son and that their religion was correct - but did that settle it for everyone else?

These supernatural events were indeed reported - but most people rejected that report.

Seventh-day Adventist will tell you of that same supernatural event within their own denomination - but that does not "settle it" for all who hear of it.
===================================================

Regarding the fact that the eschatology religion of Noah came direct from God - who tells Noah this is the right message you ask

When did God do that? Scripture please

Answer:
Genesis 6
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it:... 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; ...22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.
Genesis 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. ... Noah did according to all that the Lord had commanded him.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Genesis 6 -- for 120 years - Noah was given time to build the ark and preach.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
God told Moses and all Israel at Sinai that their religion was correct -- but did that settle it for everyone else?

When did God do that. Scripture please.

Exodus 6, 7, 8 -- Moses' religion comes directly from God.
In fact Moses's writing of the books of Job and Genesis before that comes directly from God according to 2 Tim 3:16 and 2Peter 1:19-21

BobRyan said: ↑
God told John the baptizer that his religion was correct - did all Israel believe?
Christ told His disciples that He was God the Son and that their religion was correct - but did that settle it for everyone else?

When did Christ say that their religion was correct? Scripture please.

John claims God directed him in his message not only what to say but also pointing out who exactly would be the Messiah. read John 1 ... it is all right there. John's message come directly from God.

It was not a matter of guessing or "I guess a more accurate doctrine than some other person"

BobRyan said: ↑
These supernatural events were indeed reported - but most people rejected that report.

Supernatural events? Yes. God speaking to people? Yes.

And that settles it.

Is the latter supernatural? No. It is rather ordinary although unusual.

Everything God does is "natural to Him" and supernatural to us. By definition.

But I have never heard God say to anyone (and its no where in scripture) "your religion is correct."

When God says "This is what you are to say" and in the case of Israel - "here is your entire set of beliefs" that is God saying "your religion is the right one".

Obviously.

BobRyan said: ↑
Seventh-day Adventist will tell you of that same supernatural event within their own denomination - but that does not "settle it" for all who hear of it.

IN Romans 2:13-16 the pagans have a "relationship" with God and in some cases are saved even though they have nothing at all of the Christian religion. That does not mean that pagan beliefs are the right religion.

The question in the OP is very specific - and in the Bible "false doctrine matters"

 

[BobRyan]

Seems like it would help us out a lot if God told everybody, "The Calvinists are right" (Or whichever denomination).

So many false teachings would be disproven in an instant, everybody would know which Church best aligns with God & His word...

So why not?

Here is the "answer" that one would have expected of the Christians answering the post

1. Yes you are right that Calvinism, Catholicism, Arminians etc are all differing on some point of doctrine and so all of them are not right and at best one of them could be free of doctrinal error. At worst none of them are absolutely free of doctrinal error.

That is a "given".

2. Yes you are right the Christians "should" all agree that if God were to tell them -- "that denomination over there across the street - has no doctrinal error" that would solve the problem.

3. So then my answer must be "YES I would agree if God said THAT religion is the right one I would follow His direction..."

Or it could be "YES I happen to belong to that one unique and singular group that has God's divine voice spoken from the heavens saying this one is the right one - right down to the very name of the denomination".

================================

But "instead of that" -- many answers are of the form "a vast group of contradicting beliefs is the right religion".

The Jews would not accept Christ because they had it in their mind that "all is well just as it is". They were giving Jesus a "don't rock the boat" form of push-back - where loyalty to their Sadducee--vs--Pharisee group mattered "more" then accepting the Gospel of TRUTH.

A few however, would wake up from that mindless tug-of-war and leave those ranks and join up with Christ. Only to find themselves in a new tug-of-war where Christians (Jews and gentiles ) were in a tug-of-war with non-Christian Jews (Both Pharisee and Sadducee).

and in Matt 10 Jesus said "I did come to bring peace but a sword"

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know of any perfect denominations, and if there were any, maybe the Lord would like you to figure it out on your own.

A lot of Jewish factions in Christ's day - And Christians as Paul pointed out - were considered "a sect of Judaism" ..

God wanted them to know which one was right - and was willing to help them figure it out

 

[BobRyan]

Again, supernatural events are not relationship and relationship is everything.

the Question/subject in the OP is not "list all the people that are saved" or "list a denomination where every soul in it is saved and those not in it are lost".

In the debate over whose "religion" is the right one - Christ says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 "you worship what you do not know - we worship what we know -- salvation is of the Jews"

What He does not say to her is "all Jews are saved and all Samaritans are going to hell".

That was not His position.

Rather He knew full well that there were some saved Jews and some lost ones... that was also true of Samaritans. Some saved and some lost.

But the Samaritan woman - like the OP on this thread -- was not asking "who is saved" she was asking whose religion is right.

 

[A_Thinker]

But the Samaritan woman - like the OP on this thread -- was not asking "who is saved" she was asking whose religion is right.

And Jesus went on to say that the day was coming when the true worshippers of God would neither worship Him in Jerusalem ... or on that Samaritan mountain.

For the true worshippers of God shall worship Him in spirit and in truth.

And James said that "Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

 

[BobRyan]

And Jesus went on to say that the day was coming when the true worshippers of God would neither worship Him in Jerusalem ... or on that Samaritan mountain.

For the true worshippers of God shall worship Him in spirit and in truth.

And yet maintains his position that those who reject Christian doctrine do not go to heaven. A very "divisive" idea for his Jewish audience

The argument here is not "Love God or have correct doctrine" -- Jesus never argues that error produces the best connection with God. Rather "you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free" John 8.

"Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is truth" John 17

"IN VAIN do they worship Me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" Mark 7

Which is why Jesus can say in John 4 debate "about whose religion is right" -- "you worship what you do not know - we worship what we know for salvation is of the Jews" John 4.

He never says "Truth does not matter" -- "spirit AND truth" not "spirit instead of truth"

For the Spirit is the "Spirit OF Truth" John 16.

 

[BobRyan]

And James said that "Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

1 Tim 4:1 warns against false doctrine - calling it "doctrine of demons" not "doctrine won't really matter" or "false doctrine has no down side".

"Spirit AND truth" and not "Spirit instead of truth" John 4.

John 16 "When He the Spirit OF Truth comes - He will guide you into all Truth"

The "armor of God" in Eph 6 includes "the Belt of Truth" and also the "sword of the Spirit which is the WORD of God"

Did you respond to the question in the OP?

 

[BobRyan]

My argument is not that only one denomination has saved people in it -- my argument is that the question in the OP is very important and having God point out which group has no doctrinal error - would indeed be a good thing.

John 7:17
17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

Not "doctrine does not matter"

"teaching as doctrine the commandments of men" flat out condemned in Mark 7:6-13

 

[ripple the car]

.

 

[faroukfarouk]

We need to go to the Scriptures.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

the Question/subject in the OP is not "list all the people that are saved" or "list a denomination where every soul in it is saved and those not in it are lost".

In the debate over whose "religion" is the right one - Christ says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 "you worship what you do not know - we worship what we know -- salvation is of the Jews"

What He does not say to her is "all Jews are saved and all Samaritans are going to hell".

That was not His position.

Rather He knew full well that there were some saved Jews and some lost ones... that was also true of Samaritans. Some saved and some lost.

But the Samaritan woman - like the OP on this thread -- was not asking "who is saved" she was asking whose religion is right.

Clearly we see she was asking the wrong question. And you cannot say that he knew that some Samaritans were saved and some were not at that point in time. Clearly his thinking was on the flesh and blood woman standing in front of him, not theoretical people elsewhere.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God told Noah that his religion was correct - but did that settle it for everyone else?

God told Moses and all Israel at Sinai that their religion was correct -- but did that settle it for everyone else?

God told John the baptizer that his religion was correct - but did all Israel listen?

Christ told His disciples that He was God the Son and that their religion was correct - but did that settle it for everyone else?

These supernatural events were indeed reported - but most people rejected that report.

Seventh-day Adventist will tell you of that same supernatural event within their own denomination - but that does not "settle it" for all who hear of it.
===================================================

Regarding the fact that the eschatology religion of Noah came direct from God - who tells Noah this is the right message you ask


Answer:
Genesis 6
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it:... 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; ...22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.
Genesis 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. ... Noah did according to all that the Lord had commanded him.
2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Genesis 6 -- for 120 years - Noah was given time to build the ark and preach.

I do see the word "religion" or the statement "God told Noah his religion was correct" in any of that. Where do you find "you religion is right" in that? Please find the word "religion" to start with.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Not a word of his religion being correct. It say Noah became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith (as well as being declared righteous before Christ came.)

 

[faroukfarouk]

I do see the word "religion" or the statement "God told Noah his religion was correct" in any of that. Where do you find "you religion is right" in that? Please find the word "religion" to start with.
Not a word of his religion being correct. It say Noah became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith (as well as being declared righteous before Christ came.)

We need to look at things doctrinally and spiritually - as Romans and Hebrews do, tracing themes back to the Old Testament regularly - rather than assuming the supposed need for one compulsory, institutional conglomerate.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Exodus 6, 7, 8 -- Moses' religion comes directly from God.
In fact Moses's writing of the books of Job and Genesis before that comes directly from God according to 2 Tim 3:16 and 2Peter 1:19-21

You said that God told Moses that his religion was right. I do not see that in any scripture you post. Moses' relationship with God came from God. That is true. I do not see either Moses nor God talking about religion between themselves. They meet as friends and talked as friends, face to face. Does not seem the subject of religion came up.

John claims God directed him in his message not only what to say but also pointing out who exactly would be the Messiah. read John 1 ... it is all right there. John's message come directly from God.

Don't need to read it. I know it. No mention of religion. John never preached "our religion is from God" or "we have the true religion." Sorry but the subject of religion did not come up.

It was not a matter of guessing or "I guess a more accurate doctrine than some other person"

It is a matter of who knows God, that is, relationship.

When God says "This is what you are to say" and in the case of Israel - "here is your entire set of beliefs" that is God saying "your religion is the right one".

Please find the quote where God said to Israel, "here is your entire set of beliefs." He never said any such thing.

IN Romans 2:13-16 the pagans have a "relationship" with God and in some cases are saved even though they have nothing at all of the Christian religion. That does not mean that pagan beliefs are the right religion.

No, their sin separated them from God. They were far off and did not know Him. They had no relationship with God.

I think, BobRyan, that you use way too glibly "God said" for things God never said. When the Bible says "God said" it means those are the words he used (albeit translated). God does speak. And He uses words. If I quote God, those are the words God used same as if I quote a man. You cannot make up what God said from other things attributing a speech to Him he never made. Better stick to the truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We need to look at things doctrinally and spiritually - as Romans and Hebrews do, tracing themes back to the Old Testament regularly - rather than assuming the supposed need for one compulsory, institutional conglomerate.

Well, I look at things as God wants me to look at them as best as I can or know how more or less taking one thing with another. I really do not know what looking at something doctrinally or spiritually means. When God speaks to me, He uses words and I do not attribute speeches to Him He never made. That is the difference, perhaps, between relationship where God speaks to a person and theology where men try to formulate what God might have said had the subject come up.