Why doesn't God just tell us which denomination is right?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Seems like it would help us out a lot if God told everybody, "The Calvinists are right" (Or whichever denomination).

So many false teachings would be disproven in an instant, everybody would know which Church best aligns with God & His word...

So why not?

Good question. When ya find out, let me know.

One true church-ism
One true church-ism

You know, I was on another forum and visited a thread that had primarily roman catholic and eastern orthodox people in it. Then somebody claimed that there church was the "one true church"

And let me tell you. That thread exploded into a war, a war of insults, where some people said some very VERY not nice things about some other people. You think they were trying to kill each other with words.

Tell me, why do some christians need there church to be the "one true church"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why doesn't God just tell us which denomination is right?

If you're a Christian, you already believe that God "told us" what was what.
We've spent a long time twisting it to meet our various desires, as well as genuinely getting confused. So it goes.

For those who don't know, what did God tell us

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He did tell us, by setting up the correct denomination in the first place.
The Orthodox Catholic Church that God started on the Day of Pentecost. It wasn't until 1,500 years later that other men (and women) began starting up various other denominations.

HMMM, 2,000 years or 500 years. Which would you believe??

Perhaps if it weren't great Schisms in the past between East and West, Christianity would be a lot different and probably less divided. So don't blame Protestism and the Reformation for the problem.

Perhaps we need a little Church history to see what did happen......

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

The East–West Schism, also called the Great Schism and the Schism of 1054, was the break of communion between what are now the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches, which has lasted since the 11th century.[1]

A succession of ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West pre-dated the formal rupture that occurred in 1054.[2][3][4] Prominent among these were the issues of the source of the Holy Spirit, whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the Bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the Pentarchy.

Western Schism - Wikipedia

The Western Schism, also called Papal Schism, Great Occidential Schism and Schism of 1378, was a split within the Catholic Church lasting from 1378 to 1417[1] in which two, since 1410 even three, men simultaneously claimed to be the true pope. Driven by politics rather than any theological disagreement, the schism was ended by the Council of Constance (1414–1418). For a time these rival claims to the papal throne damaged the reputation of the office.....

Well... Christians started off as one Church. They were the only holy Catholic and apostolic Church which believed in the Orthodox faith.

The Christians around modern Egypt got upset at a Church Council over things that really didn't matter to anyone even in the fifth Century. They were mere differences in understanding and language that with more patience and understanding, we find can be easily resolved today. So, they stopped showing up to Ecumenical Councils.

The rest (but not all) of most of Christianity was divided between two groups, the Latins, and the Greeks. They were divided by language (theologically), culture, and practice. The two sides became politically isolated. The Latins lived in the Western Roman Empire, which collapsed, was taken over by barbarian tribes, and those tribal leaders converted to Christianity. So the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, considered the leader of the Latins and the leader of the Church, whose power was never defined, recognized these now kings as legitimate rulers of the former western part of the Roman Empire.

The Greeks, who controlled the Roman Empire, which was not Latin or Roman... were not happy that their Latin brothers gave up on the Empire, which had become Christian. The Pope made the King of the Franks, now France and much of Germany, an Emperor. The Greeks were not thrilled, since they had the Emperor. Then a bunch of German and Italian regions got together in an overly complicated political entity that only Germans and Italians could create, called the Holy Roman Empire. You know, as opposed to just the Roman Empire (which the Greeks were).

Then the two sides stopped getting together and really haven't done anything since. So that Latins called themselves Catholic, after the Church... and the Greeks, Orthodox, after the faith.

So this is in the 1000s. In the 1500s, the Italians left the Holy Roman Empire. But the princes of Germany were not happy about how much money still ended up in Rome because of the Church. So, a guy, who became a monk, because he told God he'd become one if he survived a storm, had legendary bowel movement issues. He took his rage out on the Church.. and the Jews... and shopped around the princes of Germany for people interested in excuses to leave the Church. Also, he told them they could close down monasteries and sell all their land.

There was no "Germany" at this time. Just a bunch of little duchies with their own rulers. His gimmick was, you can control your land and your church, by leaving the church, in the name of reforming the Church. Control religion and your kingdom, for the good of Christianity!

Meanwhile, in England, Henry VIII wanted to marry his dead brother's wife. The Church is like... no... you can't marry your brother's wife... read the bible. But Henry says... technically, they weren't married, since they didn't have relations. His wife, a devout Christian and loved figure confirmed it was true, he was sick after their married and then died.

So the Church says alright, you can get married. So he tries to make lots of kids, sometimes with his actual wife. He has five legitimate kids, but four of them died, leaving him only a girl and a wife probably too old to have more kids. England didn't really have plans for a Queen as a ruler, as opposed to a Queen-consort. So Henry VIII tells Rome, I changed my mind, I am married to my brother's wife. Let's say the marriage never happened because it couldn't. Rome is like... no.

So Henry VIII decides to leave the Catholic Church while pretending to be part of the Catholic Church. He married five more times and kills lots and lots of people, including his most trusted friend Thomas Moore, who would not recognize Henry as the head of England and the head of the Catholic Church in England. Ironically, the daughter of his first wife became Queen anyways. Her name was Mary and hundreds of people died with her trying to return England to Catholicism. Then his second wife, which was adultery, gave him a daughter, named Elizabeth. She also became Queen and killed thousands of Catholics, gotta out do your sister, returning England to pretend Catholic.

Meanwhile, a Christian has tried to improve Christianity by interpreting it with Islamic philosophy. If you have ever read the Quran, you know it makes no sense. So, they decided, God can't be understoodd, and He does whatever He wants. God is in control of everything.

So Calvin decided, for God to be really in control of everything, then God picks people to go to hell and go to Heaven, for his glory, apparently. He makes long rationalizations for this idea. So now you have the folks who leave the Catholic Church while pretending to be Catholics (Lutherans, Anglicans), and the folks that hate everything Catholic (Calvinists/Reformed).

In England, people don't like what happened with the Catholics and the pseudo-Catholics. They think if they get rid of all things Catholic and embrace Calvinism, everything will be fine. So Elizabeth, the second queen daughter from the guy who wanted a son, says.. let's compromise on Christianity. And she mixes a bit of this and a bit of that. And I'll kill anyone that disagrees.

In Germany, the folks that didn't like Catholicism and didn't like Lutherans, and all the bloodshed and violence decided to start their own faction call Anabaptists.

And it didn't go well, at all. Eventually we decided you should believe whatever you want. That is, you can believe what you want... but I'll find ways to force my beliefs on your subtly. (We use the terms "faith" and "values" in political commercials to let you know)

Then many Christians forgot Christian history and theology. That's a lot of stuff. So, we should just focus on the bible. But everyone's interpretation of the bible creates another denomination. So then we decided to unite ourselves by completely dividing ourselves while holding onto factional theologies. Because, that is apparently biblical... if you completely ignore history.

In short, the Coptic, Orthodox, and Catholic Churches are a continuation of Christianity separated by time and circumstance. The rest are organizations made by men and women.

Good post.........

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Perhaps if it weren't great Schisms in the past between East and West, Christianity would be a lot different and probably less divided. So don't blame Protestism and the Reformation for the problem.

Perhaps we need a little Church history to see what did happen......

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

The East–West Schism, also called the Great Schism and the Schism of 1054, was the break of communion between what are now the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches, which has lasted since the 11th century.[1]

A succession of ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West pre-dated the formal rupture that occurred in 1054.[2][3][4] Prominent among these were the issues of the source of the Holy Spirit, whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the Bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the Pentarchy.

Western Schism - Wikipedia

The Western Schism, also called Papal Schism, Great Occidential Schism and Schism of 1378, was a split within the Catholic Church lasting from 1378 to 1417[1] in which two, since 1410 even three, men simultaneously claimed to be the true pope. Driven by politics rather than any theological disagreement, the schism was ended by the Council of Constance (1414–1418). For a time these rival claims to the papal throne damaged the reputation of the office.....

Good post.........

Can the division between Orthodox and Catholic (which resulted in two Churches largely intact to this day) really be comparable with the internal fragmentation of Protestantism (which has resulted in innumerable denominations)?

 

[A_Thinker]

"By this WILL ALL MEN KNOW that you are MY DISCIPLES ... if you have LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER." - Jesus

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some denominations have some things right that others don't. The foundation is Jesus Christ, and if a man believes that he is the Son of God, then that is all that is necessary for him to be saved - all the other stuff comes about from the disputing of man. I guarantee that even if God proclaimed the "most-correct" denomination, there would still be infighting amongst Christianity. We're people, arguing is what we do best.

My bro, St. Paul, addressed that very thing in 1 Corinthians.
If he was to come down today and see the Church the way it is now, he would probably bring the rod. [1 Corin 4:21]

1 Corin 4:
18 Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only what these arrogant people are saying, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21 Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and with a gentle spirit?

1 Corin 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Corin 11:
17 In the following instructions I have no praise to offer, because your gatherings do more harm than good.
18 For foremost indeed of coming together ye in the assembly I am hearing schisms in ye to be firstly, and part some I am believing it. 19 And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved.

1 Corin 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

 

[Phil 1:21]

What does this mean? Will reading the bible not cause you to put one meaning in front of another which will necessarily contradict other readings of the same text thus causing in the most extreme of cases further division? My point is that reading the bible is not a solution for unifying Christendom. The reformation proved that.

I apologize that I don’t know a clearer way to say it. And we’ll have to disagree about the Reformation. I see it as God restoring His wayward church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ignatius the Kiwi said: ↑
What does this mean? Will reading the bible not cause you to put one meaning in front of another which will necessarily contradict other readings of the same text thus causing in the most extreme of cases further division? My point is that reading the bible is not a solution for unifying Christendom. The reformation proved that.

I apologize that I don’t know a clearer way to say it. And we’ll have to disagree about the Reformation. I see it as God restoring His wayward church.

Now that is a topic I could really get into.......


Was God behind the Reformation?

I believe I have brought this up before as a reply in another thread, but it didn't get far. So I am starting a new thread for discussion.

My question: Was God behind the Reformation?

I may not hold the exact same positions as Luther or Calvin, but what I see in all the reformers was a common desire to love Jesus.

Today, there is a lot of Protestants who love Jesus and confess Him as Lord and Savior. (Romans 10:9-10).

I can not see Satan wanting people to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. I can not see Satan wanting people to repent for their sins and to be Christ-like. Therefore, since Satan (evil) was not behind the Reformation, God must have been. Look at how many people have been saved through Protestant/Non-denominational chruchs!

Yes, there might be a lot of different denominations, but they are all united in their belief in Jesus Christ, one of the only beliefs that truely counts! It is through Jesus we are saved.

I'm only bringing this up because a lot of Orthodox and Catholic brothers seem to look down on the Reformation (something that God had to have backed). I'm just trying to understand this position.

God bless...

Reformation - Wikipedia

Reformation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other uses, see Reformation (disambiguation).
Not to be confused with Reform movement.

The Reformation, or, more fully, the Protestant Reformation, was a schism in Western Christianity initiated by Martin Luther and continued by John Calvin, Huldrych Zwingli, and other Protestant Reformers in 16th century Europe. It is usually considered to have started with the publication of the Ninety-five Theses by Martin Luther in 1517 and lasted until the end of the Thirty Years' War in 1648.

Although there had been earlier attempts to reform the Catholic Church – such as those of Jan Hus, Peter Waldo, John Wycliffe, and Girolamo Savonarola – Luther is widely acknowledged to have started the Reformation with the Ninety-five Theses. Luther began by criticising the sale of indulgences, insisting that the Pope had no authority over purgatory and that the Catholic doctrine of the merits of the saints had no foundation in the Bible. The Reformation incorporated doctrinal changes such as a complete reliance on Scripture as the only source of proper belief (sola scriptura) and the belief that faith in Jesus, and not good works, is the only way to obtain God's pardon for sin (sola fide). The core motivation behind these changes was theological, though many other factors played a part, including the rise of nationalism, the Western Schism that eroded loyalty to the Papacy, the perceived corruption of the Roman Curia, the impact of humanism, and the new learning of the Renaissance that questioned much traditional thought.

 

[Ken Rank]

To use Calvinism as an example to how personal bias plays a part. I have seen numerous anti-calvinists say Calvinist God is satan and that they rather go to hell then worship such a God.

And I would view that attitude as sin. God said He, "HATES" when a brother creates strife with another brother (Pro. 6:16-19) and that is strife. There are lots of things I don't believe are correct within mainstream Christianity, but that doesn't mean I view Christians who believe any of those as not my brothers.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Can the division between Orthodox and Catholic (which resulted in two Churches largely intact to this day) really be comparable with the internal fragmentation of Protestantism (which has resulted in innumerable denominations)?

The reason for so many Protestant denomination in my opinion is that among the Protestants is the true church of GOD and satan has counterfeited it many different ways to lead people away from the true church.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Seems like it would help us out a lot if God told everybody, "The Calvinists are right" (Or whichever denomination).

So many false teachings would be disproven in an instant, everybody would know which Church best aligns with God & His word...

So why not?

Because the goal is that each man have a relationship with God and not join the right "club." And, in fact, if one is fortunate enough to belong to a group that understands and teaches how to hear the One True Living God speak to you, this question is not one that is ever asked. Much more important information is communicated.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The reason for so many Protestant denomination in my opinion is that among the Protestants is the true church of GOD and satan has counterfeited it many different ways to lead people away from the true church.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Possibly though that doesn't speak to the ability of the bible to unite Christians rather than than divide them.

I assume you believe that the SDA are the truest or most faithful Protestants? In keeping with the topic of the thread how would you go about establishing that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The reason for so many Protestant denomination in my opinion is that among the Protestants is the true church of GOD and satan has counterfeited it many different ways to lead people away from the true church.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Gotta keep that dragon off our backs....

Revelation 14:17
and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Matt 19:17
"Why do you ask Me about what is good?" He said to him. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.""
Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not defraud, you shall honor your father and mother.'"
Luke 18:20
You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall honor your father and mother.'"
John 14:21
The one having My commandments and keeping them, he is the one loving Me.
Now the one loving Me will be loved by My Father. And I will love him, and will show Myself to him."

.......................................

 

[gordonhooker]

I apologize that I don’t know a clearer way to say it. And we’ll have to disagree about the Reformation. I see it as God restoring His wayward church.

Initially it may have been but then all it did was move the deck chairs of division around, now the reformed church needs reforming.

 

[gordonhooker]

The reason for so many Protestant denomination in my opinion is that among the Protestants is the true church of GOD and satan has counterfeited it many different ways to lead people away from the true church.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I take it the true church is the one you currently attend.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I take it the true church is the one you currently attend.

The SDA's do have a separate board on CF. I believe it is something like the "remnant church"?

Here, the OP says he is LDS, but according to his faith now, the member is now Catholic.
Pretty radical change........

Do Adventists Believe that the SDA Church is the "One True Church"?

Hi everyone!

I'm LDS (Mormon), and one of my coworkers is Seventh-day Adventist. I know a little about the history of this church, as well as some of the beliefs. I've read through the official website.

Am I correct in understanding that Adventists believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the "remnant church", and is therefore the "one true church" in some sense? Would Adventists therefore categorize themselves as "restorationists"?

Also, are there any good basic books on Adventist beliefs and practices?

Thanks!

Although I am very new to the SDA church, what I have learned it that no, the SDA church does not believe it is the "one true church". It does refer to itself as a remnant church, but also believes that there are remnants amongst most churches.

 

[tulipbee]

How easy will it be to remove denominational garbage if I joined a non denomination church?

How do they differ from other denominations?

 

[tulipbee]

Because NONE of them do! None of them are!

We will never get it right. Only God gets it right.

After multiple denomination hoping for years, I found out the hard way. What church am I supposed to go to?

 

[A_Thinker]

The reason for so many Protestant denomination in my opinion is that among the Protestants is the true church of GOD and satan has counterfeited it many different ways to lead people away from the true church.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Might I suggest that wherever believers in the saving power of Christ gather ... to be encouraged in their faith, and strengthened for persevering in their walk with God, to show love and kindness into the world, ... there you find Christ's Church.

Jesus said that His followers would be all about the LOVE (John 15:34-35). Seems like it is we who have made it all about the DETAILS of the FAITH.

When, again, Jesus said that, even, our FAITH should be as a LITTLE CHILD's (Mark 10:14-15) ...

 

[A_Thinker]

How easy will it be to remove denominational garbage if I joined a non denomination church?

How do they differ from other denominations?

These tend to be more focused upon Jesus' teachings, rather than adherence to denominational traditions.

They are often, typically, more contemporary ...