The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Jesus

[BABerean2]

So, the Abrahamic Covenant is not replaced by the New Covenant. That is the covenant that has Israel in place today where it is.

What did Paul say below about the Abrahamic Covenant?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I am Abraham's seed and heir to the promise.

You are attempting to replace the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

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[Biblewriter]

Mixed messages. Definitive conclusions cannot be drawn. But I'm certain that none of these brethren would question the testamentary division of the Scriptures.


"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CXXXV


"He proceeds, For ye shall leave your name for a rejoicing unto My chosen, but the Lord shall slay you. These words, dealing with a future time, are addressed to the carnal Israel, which is taunted with the prospect of having to surrender its name to the chosen of God. What is this name? Israel, of course; for to Israel the prophecy was addressed. And now I ask, What is Israel to-day? The Apostle gives the answer:—They who are in the spirit, not in the letter, they who walk in the Law of Christ, are the Israel of God."

(“On the Trinity,” by Hilary of Poitiers, book V, paragraph 228, from “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, second series, vol. 9, ed. Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. and Henry Wace, D.D.)


"Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ."

Augustine, Confessions

Yet none of this can change the fact that many of them taught, and clearly taught, that the Jews would eventually be converted to faith in Jesus.

 

[BABerean2]

Yet none of this can change the fact that many of them taught, and clearly taught, that the Jews would eventually be converted to faith in Jesus.

... by being grafted into the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

Not outside of the Church.

If we want modern Jews to be saved we need to share the Gospel with them, now.

The suffering servant of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures. How many times have we seen this simple three-part Gospel message on Christian television?



Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh (Jewish Evangelism)
Isaiah chapter 53

A Jewish Man finds the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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[jgr]

Yet none of this can change the fact that many of them taught, and clearly taught, that the Jews would eventually be converted to faith in Jesus.

The mechanics of genetic dispersion and diffusion were unknown.

They wouldn't be teaching today what they taught then.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

 

[Douggg]

I am Abraham's seed and heir to the promise.

By virtue of all Christians being one in Christ, you with all other Christians.

You as a stand alone individual are not Abraham's seed, but as part of the group of all Christians together you are Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[BABerean2]

By virtue of all Christians being one in Christ, you with all other Christians.

You as a stand alone individual are not Abraham's seed, but as part of the group of all Christians together you are Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Based on the verse below, we have more of your strange logic above since you seem to believe the word "you" cannot refer to a singular believer.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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[Douggg]

Based on the verse below, we have more of your strange logic above since you seem to believe the word "you" cannot refer to a singular believer.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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Is an individual a church or not?

 

[BABerean2]

Is an individual a church or not?

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?


He is in me, and I am in Him...

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[Biblewriter]

The mechanics of genetic dispersion and diffusion were unknown.

They wouldn't be teaching today what they taught then.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

It will require enough genes for God to consider them Israelites. And, as this opinions was based on scripture, not logic, nothing would change today.

 

[Biblewriter]

If we want modern Jews to be saved we need to share the Gospel with them, now.

For the last 200 years, Dispensationalista have always been the most fervent group in preaching the gospel to everyone, including the Jews.

 

[jgr]

It will require enough genes for God to consider them Israelites. And, as this opinions was based on scripture, not logic, nothing would change today.

How many genes would that be?

 

[BABerean2]

For the last 200 years, Dispensationalista have always been the most fervent group in preaching the gospel to everyone, including the Jews.

If that includes Jews, why have many Dispensational churches allowed Christ rejecting Jews to speak from the pulpit of their church?

Why did my former church body allow Gershon Salomon to speak about the rebuilding of the Jewish temple?

Since modern Dispensational Theology is less than 200 years old, you are exaggerating just a little.


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[Biblewriter]

How many genes would that be?

As I said, enough for GOD to consider them Israelies.

 

[Biblewriter]

If that includes Jews, why have many Dispensational churches allowed Christ rejecting Jews to speak from the pulpit of their church?

Why did my former church body allow Gershon Salomon to speak about the rebuilding of the Jewish temple?

Since modern Dispensational Theology is less than 200 years old, you are exaggerating just a little.


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I cannot speak for what every individual pastor may or may not have done.

But as to your question as to whether or not I was exaggerating "just a little, actually, no. I have already posted excerpts of Lewis Way's full developed Dispensationalism, from two documents respectively published in 1815 and 1817.

 

[jgr]

As I said, enough for GOD to consider them Israelies.

Is God counting genes?

Romans 2:28-29

Not there, He's not.

Do you have Scripture that says He is counting genes?

He's not counting genes here: Genesis 17:12

So when did He start?

 

[BABerean2]

I have already posted excerpts of Lewis Way's full developed Dispensationalism, from two documents respectively published in 1815 and 1817.

Can you show where Way said that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, since that is a unique distinction of modern Dispensational Theology?

Some of the modern Judaisers, who claim to be Christians, are now referring to Christ-rejecting Jews as our "Jewish Brothers and Sisters".
Apparently, John Hagee is not alone in promoting Dual Covenant Theology.

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[Biblewriter]

Is God counting genes?

Romans 2:28-29

Not there, He's not.

Do you have Scripture that says He is counting genes?

He's not counting genes here: Genesis 17:12

So when did He start?

At the time God said these things, there was zero question about who, and who was not, a Jew, or any other child of Israel. Now, we determine based on genes. But God knows who is, and who is not, a child of Israel. The point of Romans 9 was not that the true Jews are someone different from the genetic descendants of Judah or Benjamin. It was that not all genetic descendants of Judah or Benjamin would be counted as true Jews.

This is exactly what God did in the case of Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael was also a child of Abraham, but God chose only Isaac to be counted as Abraham's "seed." (Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7)

 

[Biblewriter]

Can you show where Way said that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, since that is a unique distinction of modern Dispensational Theology?

Some of the modern Judaisers, who claim to be Christians, are now referring to Christ-rejecting Jews as our "Jewish Brothers and Sisters".
Apparently, John Hagee is not alone in promoting Dual Covenant Theology.

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I cannot, now can you show where Darby, or any other mainline teacher of Dispensationalism said any such thing. You are continuing to pretend that Dispensationalists say that the Jews will be saved without trusting Christ. I do not know of even one of them except the heretic John Hagee says this.

 

[BABerean2]

I cannot, now can you show where Darby, or any other mainline teacher of Dispensationalism said any such thing. You are continuing to pretend that Dispensationalists say that the Jews will be saved without trusting Christ.

For about 1800 years the "Church" was understood to be a body made up of individuals who place their faith in Christ.

Through the use of some very strange logic you now seem to be claiming that modern Jews will place their faith in Christ, but will not be a part of the Church, during a future time period.

Below we find claims of other Dispensationalists.

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Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

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We know from 2 Peter 3:10-13 that this world will eventually be destroyed and replaced with the New Heavens and New Earth.
Chafer's claim above of Israel as "an eternal nation" on this earth cannot be correct.

Chafer's attempts to keep Israel and the Church separated come apart once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

When will you finally quit ignoring the New Covenant in an attempt to make your doctrine work?


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[jgr]

At the time God said these things, there was zero question about who, and who was not, a Jew, or any other child of Israel. Now, we determine based on genes. But God knows who is, and who is not, a child of Israel. The point of Romans 9 was not that the true Jews are someone different from the genetic descendants of Judah or Benjamin. It was that not all genetic descendants of Judah or Benjamin would be counted as true Jews.

This is exactly what God did in the case of Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael was also a child of Abraham, but God chose only Isaac to be counted as Abraham's "seed." (Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7)

The point of Genesis 17:12, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9, Romans 11, et al; is that from the very beginning of covenant history, the conditions for God's acceptance have only and ever been compliance with His covenant requirements, which have always been faith and obedience.