The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Jesus

[Quasar92]

Have you ever stopped to think what the Scriptures tell us where believers go after the death of our bodies? Where are we going when our body dies?

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, IMO, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the tribulation. He will return for all of us who belong to Him, still alive here on earth, at His appearing, according to Jn.14:2-4 and 1 Thes.4:14-18. All those who have died in Him, go to be with Him in heaven, immediately after their physical death, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Beginning with Pentecost, they are seen returning with Him from heaven, in 1 Thes.4:14, when He returns for all of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His appearing in the clouds of the sky. Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He returns to take us with Him, back to our Father in heaven. As recorded in 1 Thes.4:17, when we will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them [all those who previously died in Him] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am." Vs.3."And you know the way to where I am going." Jn.14:2-4.

And where did Jesus tell them He was going? "You heards me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Vs 28. Confirmed in Jn.16:10, 17 and 28.

The important fact in the above to keep in mind is, that it cannot possibly take place when Jesus returns in His Second Coming to the earth. Because, in the above passage, He returns for all those who belong to Him, bringing with Him all those who had fallen asleep [Died] in Him from heaven, AND RETURNS WITH THEM ALL TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!

The above passage is reinforced by Paul, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, alluding to, "will be CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED together with them [The dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air, in vs 17." Vs 14 refers to God bringing with Jesus, all those who previously died in Him, and are with Him in the clouds of the air, when all of us who belong to Christ, left here on the earth alive at His appearing, meet Him, together with them, in the clouds of the air. Where in vs 15, Paul reveals the entire event is ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, which is directly from Jn.14:2-4 and 28. The only place in the Scriptures Jesus taught the believers in Him then, what we refer to today as the rapture of the Church.

How does the above teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Paul and John, differ from His Second Coming to the earth? Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, with His entire Church, [After the marriage to His Bride, the Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-9] [as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14], in His armies from heaven, as well as His angels, recorded in Mt.24:30-31. He will return to fight the battle of Armageddon first, to defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them, in Rev.19:11-20.

He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14. Then Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, then to administer the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6, bringing peace to the entire earth. He will then establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

NOTICE that Jesus DOES NOT return to heaven at any time after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives [Zech.14:5] in His Second Coming, until God has created the new heaven and earth, in Rev.21:1, as seen in verses 22-23.Jesus testimony about His Second Coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30-31:"At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. [At the end of the seven years of tribulation]. [Confirming Zech.12:10-13] Israel in particular, because they will then recognize Jesus as their Messiah FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. While the rest of the world will finally realize Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. You will not see any mourning when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky at the rapture of the Church, when He calls up all those who belong to Him, left here on the earth alive, before the seven year tribulation begins.

But rather, great rejoicing will take place! They will see the Son of Man coming on the couds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His ELECT [Jesus is addressing Israel, not the Church which did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Vs 30-31. The angels will gather His ELECT, in Mt.24:31, from the four winds [ISRAEL], from one end of the heavens to the other [THE RAPTURED CHURCH], in His second coming,- confirming Ez.34:11-16, meaning, the Jewish people from all over the entire world. Take notice: No one meets the Lord in the clouds of the sky, here. Nor does does He return from the clouds of the sky with us, to our Father in heaven, as the Scriptures reveal He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor does Jesus remain in the clouds of the sky, but will take us to our Father in heaven.

Jesus will return in His second coming, to the earth, where He will remain to establish His 1,000 year kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Jesus Olivet Discourse, recorded in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, pertains to His second coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with the Church. Because the ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9. It was in response to the questions His disciples had asked Him in Mt.24:3, "...when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Which He clearly revealed to them, completely through the seven year tribulation to the signs of His coming and of His actual arrival, in Mt.24:30-31 on the Mount of Olives, according to Zech.14:5.

The "second coming" is found in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; where you find Jesus returning with all His angels in Mt.24:30-31 and His entire Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, as found in Rev.19:8, NIV], in His armies from heaven. Which makes it quite impossible for any such thing as a post-trib rapture.The entire text by Jesus, from Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, where God has decreed Israel to go through the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation. Which the Church will not go through, according to 2 Thes.2:3 and 7. The antichrist is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the very same person found in Dan.7:23-27; 8:9-12 and in 9:27, confirmed by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, that immediately follow the pre-trib rapture of the Church, recorded in 2 Thes.2:3. There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, as He promised us, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4].

From another source: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Di ... heRapt.pdf


Quasar92

 

[Micah888]

He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church!

There is no question that the Resurrection/Rapture is quite distinct from the Second Coming of Christ. John 14:1-3 was revealed even before the crucifixion of Christ, and can be contrasted with Matthew 26:63-65, which speaks of the Second Coming of Christ "with power and great glory" (see Matthew 24:30). There is universal mourning at the Second Coming, whereas there is universal joy in the Church at the Rapture.

 

[BABerean2]

Have you ever stopped to think what the Scriptures tell us where believers go after the death of our bodies? Where are we going when our body dies?

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, IMO, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the tribulation. He will return for all of us who belong to Him, still alive here on earth, at His appearing, according to Jn.14:2-4 and 1 Thes.4:14-18. All those who have died in Him, go to be with Him in heaven, immediately after their physical death, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Beginning with Pentecost, they are seen returning with Him from heaven, in 1 Thes.4:14, when He returns for all of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His appearing in the clouds of the sky. Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He returns to take us with Him, back to our Father in heaven. As recorded in 1 Thes.4:17, when we will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them [all those who previously died in Him] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am." Vs.3."And you know the way to where I am going." Jn.14:2-4.

And where did Jesus tell them He was going? "You heards me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Vs 28. Confirmed in Jn.16:10, 17 and 28.

The important fact in the above to keep in mind is, that it cannot possibly take place when Jesus returns in His Second Coming to the earth. Because, in the above passage, He returns for all those who belong to Him, bringing with Him all those who had fallen asleep [Died] in Him from heaven, AND RETURNS WITH THEM ALL TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!

The above passage is reinforced by Paul, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, alluding to, "will be CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED together with them [The dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air, in vs 17." Vs 14 refers to God bringing with Jesus, all those who previously died in Him, and are with Him in the clouds of the air, when all of us who belong to Christ, left here on the earth alive at His appearing, meet Him, together with them, in the clouds of the air. Where in vs 15, Paul reveals the entire event is ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, which is directly from Jn.14:2-4 and 28. The only place in the Scriptures Jesus taught the believers in Him then, what we refer to today as the rapture of the Church.

How does the above teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Paul and John, differ from His Second Coming to the earth? Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, with His entire Church, [After the marriage to His Bride, the Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-9] [as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14], in His armies from heaven, as well as His angels, recorded in Mt.24:30-31. He will return to fight the battle of Armageddon first, to defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them, in Rev.19:11-20.

He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14. Then Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, then to administer the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6, bringing peace to the entire earth. He will then establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

NOTICE that Jesus DOES NOT return to heaven at any time after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives [Zech.14:5] in His Second Coming, until God has created the new heaven and earth, in Rev.21:1, as seen in verses 22-23.Jesus testimony about His Second Coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30-31:"At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. [At the end of the seven years of tribulation]. [Confirming Zech.12:10-13] Israel in particular, because they will then recognize Jesus as their Messiah FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. While the rest of the world will finally realize Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. You will not see any mourning when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky at the rapture of the Church, when He calls up all those who belong to Him, left here on the earth alive, before the seven year tribulation begins.

But rather, great rejoicing will take place! They will see the Son of Man coming on the couds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His ELECT [Jesus is addressing Israel, not the Church which did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Vs 30-31. The angels will gather His ELECT, in Mt.24:31, from the four winds [ISRAEL], from one end of the heavens to the other [THE RAPTURED CHURCH], in His second coming,- confirming Ez.34:11-16, meaning, the Jewish people from all over the entire world. Take notice: No one meets the Lord in the clouds of the sky, here. Nor does does He return from the clouds of the sky with us, to our Father in heaven, as the Scriptures reveal He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor does Jesus remain in the clouds of the sky, but will take us to our Father in heaven.

Jesus will return in His second coming, to the earth, where He will remain to establish His 1,000 year kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Jesus Olivet Discourse, recorded in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, pertains to His second coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with the Church. Because the ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9. It was in response to the questions His disciples had asked Him in Mt.24:3, "...when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Which He clearly revealed to them, completely through the seven year tribulation to the signs of His coming and of His actual arrival, in Mt.24:30-31 on the Mount of Olives, according to Zech.14:5.

The "second coming" is found in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; where you find Jesus returning with all His angels in Mt.24:30-31 and His entire Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, as found in Rev.19:8, NIV], in His armies from heaven. Which makes it quite impossible for any such thing as a post-trib rapture.The entire text by Jesus, from Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, where God has decreed Israel to go through the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation. Which the Church will not go through, according to 2 Thes.2:3 and 7. The antichrist is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the very same person found in Dan.7:23-27; 8:9-12 and in 9:27, confirmed by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, that immediately follow the pre-trib rapture of the Church, recorded in 2 Thes.2:3. There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, as He promised us, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4].

From another source: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Di ... heRapt.pdf


Quasar92

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4, occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.

 

[Biblewriter]

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4, occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.

This is flatly wrong, and I have repeatedly posted HARD PROOF of that fact, right in this forum. Tim LaHaye was mistaken.

a Rpture before the great tribulation was clearly taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. It was also taught by at least two other truly ancient writers, during Medieval times, and by at least two dozen English writers before the year 1800.

 

[BABerean2]

This is flatly wrong, and I have repeatedly posted HARD PROOF of that fact, right in this forum. Tim LaHaye was mistaken.

a Rpture before the great tribulation was clearly taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. It was also taught by at least two other truly ancient writers, during Medieval times, and by at least two dozen English writers before the year 1800.

Thank God that you are feeling well enough to get back into the debate.

I love you, Brother.

.

 

[Quasar92]

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4, occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.

First of all, the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul was the FIRST, pertaining to the rapture of the Church, centuries before the post tribulation view. Because the church was being taught Amillennialism by the RCC for more than 1,800 years, who deny a pre-trib rapture in addition to the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth.

As for belief that 1 Thess.4:16-17 had anything at all to do with the second coming of Jesus, is a real stretch of the imagination. Because Jesus will meet everyone who believes in Him, in the clouds of the sky in verse 17, and return to our Father in heaven with us, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Show me anywhere in the Bible, where Jesus meets anyone in the sky, when He returns to the earth from His marriage to the Bride/Church, in heaven, WITH HIS CHURCH, recorded in Rev.10:7-8 and 14. Review the following for more:


The precise timing of the rapture of the Church in 2 Thess.2:1-8:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thess.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the Antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] WILL NOT COME, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "TO DEPART, or DEPARTURE." meaning, the RAPTURE of the Church occurs FIRST, BEFORE THE DAY OF LORD] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The Antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [DEPARTURE] will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By: Thomas Ice, PhD
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the word, "discessio," meaning "DEPARTURE." Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

.

 

[seventysevens]

Wrong ! Wrong ! Wrong !

Wrong ! Wrong ! Wrong !

Wrong ! Wrong ! Wrong !

Wrong ! Wrong ! Wrong !

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4, occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.

 

[Quasar92]

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

.

FYI, Daniel's people you refer to in the above, existed six centuries before Jesus first advent, when the gospels were preached. Both Romans and Galatians were epistles taught by Paul, Jesus apostle to the Gentiles. There is nothing in the Scriptures that provide any such time frame as the seven years you refer to that Israel was presented the gospels before the gentiles.

What, may I ask, is the point you are trying to make?


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] WILL NOT COME, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "TO DEPART, or DEPARTURE." meaning, the RAPTURE of the Church occurs FIRST, BEFORE THE DAY OF LORD] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The Antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [DEPARTURE] will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By: Thomas Ice, PhD
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the word, "discessio," meaning "DEPARTURE." Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

Debunked innumerable times on innumerable occasions.

 

[jgr]

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

The grammatical antecedent of all "he's" in Daniel 9:27 is prince Messiah in the preceding verses.

The whole passage is about Christ. Antichrist is unmentioned.

 

[Quasar92]

Debunked innumerable times on innumerable occasions.

False claims do not equate into a debunking of anything. Explain to me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage in Rev.19:7-8 and then returns with Jesus in His second coming to earth in verse 14!


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

False claims do not equate into a debunking of anything. Explain to me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage in Rev.19:7-8 and then returns with Jesus in His second coming to earth in verse 14!


Quasar92

Please try to stay on topic.

Explain to all of us how the translators of all 50+ English Bible versions translate the English word(s) "apostasy" or "falling away" for the Greek "apostasia" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

 

[Quasar92]

The grammatical antecedent of all "he's" in Daniel 9:27 is prince Messiah in the preceding verses.

The whole passage is about Christ. Antichrist is unmentioned.

The three "he's" in Dam.9:27 ARE NOT Jesus, as you have been shown previously several times. Here is one of several reasons you continue to falsify the intended interpretation of Scripture:

Who is the "He" in Dan.9:27?

(1) ANTICHRIST: Applying the accepted rule of interpretation and observing the text for the nearest antecedent of the pronoun he (without bias or influence by other "experts"), this he most closely parallels the prince who is to comein the previous passage (Daniel 9:26). This is the conclusion reached by most conservative evangelical commentaries, who go on to identify him as the Little Horn (Antichrist) who "came up among the (10) horns" of the fourth beast (fourth kingdom ~ "Revived Rome") chapter 7 of Daniel (Da 7:8,11-note Da 7:20, 21-note).

It is interesting that both Christ and Antichrist are referred to as "prince" (synonymous with "king"), for the prefix "anti-" means the regal imposter is not only opposed to or against Christ, but "instead of" or a substitute for the real Christ.

We know that the prince's people (Rome) destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and can deduce that this coming princehas his ancestral roots in the ancient Roman Empire and is thus part of what is often referred to as "the revived Roman Empire", the final Gentile world government described in Romans 7 (see Da 7:7-note, Da 7:19-note). In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John records this vision...

And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems ("ten king stage" of the beast in Da 7), and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion (Ed: Note how this is the reverse of the sequence of same beasts in Da 7:1, 2,3, 4, 5, 6-note - John is looking back in time and sees the leopard first = Greece, bear = Medo-Persia, Lion = Babylon). And the dragon (Satan) gave him (Antichrist) his power and his throne and great authority. (Notice how the term "beast" merges subtlety from a beastly kingdom to the king of that kingdom in the latter part of the verse) (Re 13:1-note; Re 13:2-note; see also study of The Beast; and Beasts, Heads, and Horns)

(2) CHRIST: Some such as Edward Young and Phillip Mauro interpret the "He" as a reference to the Messiah primarily because the entire prophecy is about the Messiah and the premise that there is no (to use their words) "future 'prince' making a covenant with" Israel. This interpretation makes little sense because the new covenant in His blood is an everlasting covenant, not a seven year covenant and not a covenant which He will ever break. God is a covenant keeping God! How can the reference be to Christ when we have just been introduced to the prince who is to come which describes one out of the Roman empire? Christ did not come from the Roman Empire but from Israel. Furthermore, when did Christ make a firm covenant with many Jews for one week (seven year period)? And how can it be said of Christ that “in the midst of the week” He caused the sacrifices to cease? Sacrifices continued in the Temple some 40 years after Messiah was cut off, well past the 7 years of the 70th Week. Clearly, the "he" is not Christ.

Harry Ironside agrees that "He" is not the Messiah writing...

Ere closing I briefly notice a rather peculiar interpretation which is frequently given to the 27th verse. It is said that the Lord Jesus is Himself to be the prince that shall come who confirms the covenant for one week. His own crucifixion is supposed to be the event which caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. But neither chronologically nor doctrinally will this stand for a moment, if examined in the light of other scriptures. With whom did the Lord Jesus ever confirm a covenant for seven years? His precious blood is called ”the blood of the everlasting covenant;” not a covenant for one week of years. We may rest assured it is not Messiah at all, but the blasphemous prince who is yet to come, who will fulfil what is predicted in this verse.

How near this world may be to the actual entering upon all these things no man can say, but it is the part of wisdom to learn from the prophetic Scriptures, and to turn now to Him who alone can save; to own Him as Redeemer and Lord, and thus be certain of being caught up to meet Him when He comes in the clouds, ere the time comes for His righteous judgment to be poured out upon this poor world. (Daniel - H A Ironside) (Logos) (Wordsearch)

Ray adds...

In deciding between the Messiah or the “prince to come” as the antecedent, Barnes contends “it is not reasonable to suppose that the latter is referred to, because it is said (Da 9:26) that the effect and the purpose of his coming would be to ‘destroy the city and the sanctuary.’ In other words Barnes is saying the prince is coming to make peace. He is wrong on two accounts. Da 9:26 says it is the people of the prince, not the prince himself, who execute the destruction. Too, he is implying it is reasonable to suppose the Messiah would bring about the devastation. To assume Da 9:27 deals with Christ is presumptuous, for that is the very question for which interpreters are seeking an answer. Lastly, it is not unthinkable a future leader would bring about such an agreement with Israel; people will do almost anything to have peace in the Middle East....Leupold and Keil are some of the few non-pre-millenarians who admit the “he” is the antichrist. (A Study of Daniel 9:24 - 27, Part III)

(3) ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES: (See related discussion on Antiochus Epiphanes - Da 8:9-note, Da 8:17-note, Da 8:19-note; see also Daniel notes and additional discussion) The liberal commentator Montgomery (who to my utter amazement does not even interpret Da 9:25, 26 as a prophecy of Christ's first coming - [font='TIMES NEW ROMAN', TIMES][URL='[URL="http://www.preceptaustin.org/daniel_924-27.htm#3']See"]Background on Daniel 9:24-27 | Precept Austin[/URL] list of other Non-Christological Interpreters[/URL][/font]) identifies the "He" as Antiochus Epiphanes. Montgomery feels that this prophecy was fulfilled in the second century before Christ noting how apostate Jews cooperated with Antiochus (see 1Mac 1:11, 12,13, 14, 15).

(4) A WEEK: The pronoun He has even been interpreted as a week by some who take he as neuter (not masculine), but such an interpretation of makes absolutely no sense in context. It does emphasize how far some commentators are willing to go in an attempt to "jettison" a literal, futuristic interpretation.

In summary, even applying the elementary grammatical rule of examination of the context for the nearest antecedent noun ("prince" in Da 9:26), there is little question that the pronoun He in Da 9:27 is the future Antichrist, the evil end times anti-Semitic leader who is known by many names in Scripture (see table). And as you review the list of the names of the Antichrist, remember that in Scripture one's name speaks of one's character.

For the complete article: Daniel 9:27 Commentary | Precept Austin


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Please try to stay on topic.

Explain to all of us how the translators of all 50+ English Bible versions translate the English word(s) "apostasy" or "falling away" for the Greek "apostasia" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Mind your own plate and leave your concerns over what I post refuting you to me!

You have been given the reasons why and how the Scriptures were altered in 1611 A.D., by scribes of an authorized English version of the Bible, after it had been properly interpreted over 16 centuries previously! Here it is again, for your edification:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

We know that the prince's people (Rome) destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and can deduce that this coming princehas his ancestral roots in the ancient Roman Empire and is thus part of what is often referred to as "the revived Roman Empire"

There is no "coming prince". Prince Messiah's people who destroyed Jerusalem were both the Romans, who were His instruments of judgment and destruction, and the Jews themselves, whom Jewish history records as being responsible for as much destruction as the Romans.

How can the reference be to Christ when we have just been introduced to the prince who is to come which describes one out of the Roman empire?

Because the only individual identified as a prince in the passage is Messiah.
There is no reference to a coming prince from the Roman empire. That is an imported imposition.

In summary, even applying the elementary grammatical rule of examination of the context for the nearest antecedent noun ("prince" in Da 9:26), there is little question that the pronoun He in Da 9:27 is the future Antichrist

Antichrist is unseen, unknown, and unmentioned except in the futurized fallacies of the dispensational imagination.


Prince Messiah is the theme of the entire passage.

 

[jgr]

Mind your own plate and leave your concerns over what I post refuting you to me!

You have been given the reasons why and how the Scriptures were altered in 1611 A.D., by scribes of an authorized English version of the Bible, after it had been properly interpreted over 16 centuries previously! Here it is again, for your edification:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92

This is a good example of what Scripture refers to as "vain repetition".

 

[BABerean2]

FYI, Daniel's people you refer to in the above, existed six centuries before Jesus first advent, when the gospels were preached. Both Romans and Galatians were epistles taught by Paul, Jesus apostle to the Gentiles. There is nothing in the Scriptures that provide any such time frame as the seven years you refer to that Israel was presented the gospels before the gentiles.

What, may I ask, is the point you are trying to make?


Quasar92

Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 is not "nothing".

Paul also preached the Gospel to Daniel's people, before he began his ministry to the Gentiles.

Act 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
Act 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
Act 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.



Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

 

[seventysevens]

There is no "coming prince". Prince Messiah's people who destroyed Jerusalem were both the Romans, who were His instruments of judgment and destruction, and the Jews themselves, whom Jewish history records as being responsible for as much destruction as the Romans.
.

OBVIOUS you have no clue to what the scripture really means -" the prince that is to come" is the False messiah -aka Antichrist is coming and he will sit in the temple declaring he is God and cause the desolation to occur
the failing of the historist deceptive teaching
What has happened will happen again -

 

[Quasar92]

This is a good example of what Scripture refers to as "vain repetition".

As it is with the Scriptures posted that refute you!


Quasar92