aiki
Regular Member
1st of all, in John 10:27-28 we find the words, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck them out of my hand.
This of course is to be interpreted by Matthew 7:23, where Jesus says, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Why? Why is John 10:27-28 to be interpreted so directly in light of Matthew 7:23? Those Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:23 he said he had never known. That is, they hadn't once been his but were no longer. So how, then, does Matthew 7:23 qualify or clarify John 10:27-28? The latter speaks of genuinely born-again sheep of the flock of God; the former of those who had never been of the flock.
This is substantiated by a comparison of 1 John 2:17, which also speaks of eternal security, and 1 John 3:6. I quote them below:
1 John 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
By not being careful about what Jesus said, you are using these verses to substantiate what you have yet to establish.
It seems evident to me that the apostle John was describing an ideal, not practical reality, when he wrote of those who abide in Christ "sinning not." Why? John had noted two chapters earlier that no one can claim sinlessness:
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The apostle Paul agrees with John:
Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Romans 7:22-23
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
Most, if not all, of the writers of the New Testament letters are critical in some measure of the believers to whom they are writing yet, although these believers are guilty of sin, they are not regarded as non-believers. Clearly, sinlessness is not required for membership in God's family.
Now the second point I want to make in this thread is that the fear of falling away is one of the reasons by which anyone might be eternally secure in the Lord. Consider:
Jeremiah 32:38-40, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them.: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
This scripture tells us that there is a group of people who will be the people of God; and God will be their God. They will fear Him for ever; that is, their fear of Him will never have an end. He will make a covenant with them that will last for ever, and will not turn away from doing them good for ever. And finally, they will not depart from Him because of His fear in their hearts; while He previously said they would fear Him for ever. So they will fear Him for ever; and this fear that will last for ever will keep them from departing from Him.
Jeremiah is referring specifically to the Israelites in the passage you've cited. He was not talking about born-again, post-Calvary believers. Provoked by God, Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem but, although God had given Jerusalem and Judah into Nebuchadnezzar's hand as a punishment upon the Israelites wickedness, through Jeremiah, God promised to bring Israel out of bondage again. This is the promise given to Israel in the passage you cited.
Isn't it interesting, however, that although Israel had sinned and was being punished by God, they were not utterly rejected of God. The deep wickedness of Israel could not overcome God's faithfulness to His promises to them. And so, in due time, He brought them free of the bondage to their enemies that often resulted from their sin. If Israel is a picture or figure of the New Testament believer - and I think it is - we see no ground in God's dealings with His Chosen People for believing that our sin can exceed God's grace and move us outside of His redemption of us through Christ.
Romans 5:19-21
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now it has been argued that this scripture is given only to Israel
It is only given to Israel. The immediate context itself imposes this interpretive constraint.
I will only mention that in 2 Timothy 2:25 and elsewhere, the Bible speaks of that group of people who oppose themselves; and gives ministers of the word the instruction not to argue with them but to gently instruct them in the spirit of meekness.
This assumes the rightness of your position and the wrongness of the position of those who disagree with you. You have not yet established what you are assuming. Not at all. But we will trust God to "give you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."
I will say this: that according to Romans 11 we can obtain the promises that are mentioned in the Old Testament; and if they are given to Israel, we can also partake of them (see Hebrews 11:33, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20): because as born again believers we also are governed by God.
The only promise to Israel Paul cites in chapter 11 of his letter to the Romans is that of a future Redeemer or Deliverer:
Romans 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
I see no ground at all in what Paul writes in chapter 11 for thinking that every OT promise made by God to His Chosen People is for the New Testament believer, too. The promise of a Deliverer, of one who would take away sins, though, is one promise that we all - Jew and Gentile - can appropriate.
None of these verses/passages say anything about God's promises made to Israel being for the New Testament believer, too.
Here we find a few things. We stand by faith and by continuing in His goodness according to this scripture. There is the possibility that we will not be saved if we do not continue in His goodness and faith; He will not spare us just as He did not spare certain of the Jewish people who departed from Him because of unbelief (note that Jeremiah 32:38-40, as pertains to the Jewish people, refers to the last days, and not to those who fell away because of unbelief at the time that the Gentiles were graffed in). He will be good to us as long as we continue to be good.
Paul never wrote, "He will be good to us as long as we continue to be good." In context, Paul was talking specifically about belief and the necessity of it to being "in the Vine." Paul speaks about being in God's (His) goodness (vs. 22), not about maintaining our own goodness. What is God's goodness in the context of Romans 11? The redemption of mankind from their sins through Christ. Paul says that when/if the Jews cease to continue in unbelief (unbelief in what? In the Deliverer, who is Christ) they will be "grafted in again." (vs. 23) The issue Paul is addressing isn't works, then, but belief. And this is consistent with Paul's other comments elsewhere in his letters where he makes it clear that the believer, one who by faith is grafted into the Vine, is made righteous by their faith in Christ, not by their works (Romans 3:20-24; Romans 4:23-24; Philippians 3:9).
As a final note I want to add what it says in Philippians 1:6,
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Therefore confident faith is not a bad thing; but it is highminded confidence, or presumption, that we are to look out for, and seek to eradicate from our thinking. In Philippians 1:6 it is given as an exhortation that we ought to be confident; while in Romans 11:19-22 the exhortation is to not be highminded but fear.
In Philippians 1:6, Paul exhorts believers to be confident in God's faithfulness in bringing to completion the good work He began in drawing them to faith in His Son (John 6:44). The believer's confidence cannot be high-minded or presumptuous when it is in God's infinite mercy, grace and faithfulness (rather than their own success in being sinless). Paul in Romans 11:19-22, however, is warning against a feeling of superiority over the Jews, not about being confident in God's faithfulness.
In Hebrews 11:29 we have the answer: By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
If you have a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, you can confidently traverse the depths of the Red sea as though it were dry land (in the allegorical sense); but woe to the person who thinks they can do the same because someone else did or because they think they have faith when they really don't, i.e. they assay to do something that they don't really have faith for, out of presumption.
And thus the attention, the center of Christian living, is no longer Christ, but the believer who must believe just so, and perform good works, and who ought to be occupied with, and motivated, not by love for God, but by Self-preservation.
Now faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God; so if I have a diet of reading the word of God and really hearing in my heart its message, and receiving it, I will have faith.
Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith is activated and directed by God's word, but faith - saving faith - itself is found in God, in His Spirit (Galatians 5:22). Again, your thinking puts the onus and emphasis upon the believer rather than on God (where it should be).
Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums
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