Eternal Security based on a holy walk and the fear of falling away.

[aiki]

1st of all, in John 10:27-28 we find the words, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck them out of my hand.

This of course is to be interpreted by Matthew 7:23, where Jesus says, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why? Why is John 10:27-28 to be interpreted so directly in light of Matthew 7:23? Those Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:23 he said he had never known. That is, they hadn't once been his but were no longer. So how, then, does Matthew 7:23 qualify or clarify John 10:27-28? The latter speaks of genuinely born-again sheep of the flock of God; the former of those who had never been of the flock.

This is substantiated by a comparison of 1 John 2:17, which also speaks of eternal security, and 1 John 3:6. I quote them below:

1 John 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

By not being careful about what Jesus said, you are using these verses to substantiate what you have yet to establish.

It seems evident to me that the apostle John was describing an ideal, not practical reality, when he wrote of those who abide in Christ "sinning not." Why? John had noted two chapters earlier that no one can claim sinlessness:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The apostle Paul agrees with John:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Romans 7:22-23
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Most, if not all, of the writers of the New Testament letters are critical in some measure of the believers to whom they are writing yet, although these believers are guilty of sin, they are not regarded as non-believers. Clearly, sinlessness is not required for membership in God's family.

Now the second point I want to make in this thread is that the fear of falling away is one of the reasons by which anyone might be eternally secure in the Lord. Consider:

Jeremiah 32:38-40, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them.: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

This scripture tells us that there is a group of people who will be the people of God; and God will be their God. They will fear Him for ever; that is, their fear of Him will never have an end. He will make a covenant with them that will last for ever, and will not turn away from doing them good for ever. And finally, they will not depart from Him because of His fear in their hearts; while He previously said they would fear Him for ever. So they will fear Him for ever; and this fear that will last for ever will keep them from departing from Him.

Jeremiah is referring specifically to the Israelites in the passage you've cited. He was not talking about born-again, post-Calvary believers. Provoked by God, Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem but, although God had given Jerusalem and Judah into Nebuchadnezzar's hand as a punishment upon the Israelites wickedness, through Jeremiah, God promised to bring Israel out of bondage again. This is the promise given to Israel in the passage you cited.

Isn't it interesting, however, that although Israel had sinned and was being punished by God, they were not utterly rejected of God. The deep wickedness of Israel could not overcome God's faithfulness to His promises to them. And so, in due time, He brought them free of the bondage to their enemies that often resulted from their sin. If Israel is a picture or figure of the New Testament believer - and I think it is - we see no ground in God's dealings with His Chosen People for believing that our sin can exceed God's grace and move us outside of His redemption of us through Christ.

Romans 5:19-21
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now it has been argued that this scripture is given only to Israel

It is only given to Israel. The immediate context itself imposes this interpretive constraint.

I will only mention that in 2 Timothy 2:25 and elsewhere, the Bible speaks of that group of people who oppose themselves; and gives ministers of the word the instruction not to argue with them but to gently instruct them in the spirit of meekness.

This assumes the rightness of your position and the wrongness of the position of those who disagree with you. You have not yet established what you are assuming. Not at all. But we will trust God to "give you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."

I will say this: that according to Romans 11 we can obtain the promises that are mentioned in the Old Testament; and if they are given to Israel, we can also partake of them (see Hebrews 11:33, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20): because as born again believers we also are governed by God.

The only promise to Israel Paul cites in chapter 11 of his letter to the Romans is that of a future Redeemer or Deliverer:

Romans 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

I see no ground at all in what Paul writes in chapter 11 for thinking that every OT promise made by God to His Chosen People is for the New Testament believer, too. The promise of a Deliverer, of one who would take away sins, though, is one promise that we all - Jew and Gentile - can appropriate.

(see Hebrews 11:33, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20)

None of these verses/passages say anything about God's promises made to Israel being for the New Testament believer, too.

Here we find a few things. We stand by faith and by continuing in His goodness according to this scripture. There is the possibility that we will not be saved if we do not continue in His goodness and faith; He will not spare us just as He did not spare certain of the Jewish people who departed from Him because of unbelief (note that Jeremiah 32:38-40, as pertains to the Jewish people, refers to the last days, and not to those who fell away because of unbelief at the time that the Gentiles were graffed in). He will be good to us as long as we continue to be good.

Paul never wrote, "He will be good to us as long as we continue to be good." In context, Paul was talking specifically about belief and the necessity of it to being "in the Vine." Paul speaks about being in God's (His) goodness (vs. 22), not about maintaining our own goodness. What is God's goodness in the context of Romans 11? The redemption of mankind from their sins through Christ. Paul says that when/if the Jews cease to continue in unbelief (unbelief in what? In the Deliverer, who is Christ) they will be "grafted in again." (vs. 23) The issue Paul is addressing isn't works, then, but belief. And this is consistent with Paul's other comments elsewhere in his letters where he makes it clear that the believer, one who by faith is grafted into the Vine, is made righteous by their faith in Christ, not by their works (Romans 3:20-24; Romans 4:23-24; Philippians 3:9).

As a final note I want to add what it says in Philippians 1:6,

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Therefore confident faith is not a bad thing; but it is highminded confidence, or presumption, that we are to look out for, and seek to eradicate from our thinking. In Philippians 1:6 it is given as an exhortation that we ought to be confident; while in Romans 11:19-22 the exhortation is to not be highminded but fear.

In Philippians 1:6, Paul exhorts believers to be confident in God's faithfulness in bringing to completion the good work He began in drawing them to faith in His Son (John 6:44). The believer's confidence cannot be high-minded or presumptuous when it is in God's infinite mercy, grace and faithfulness (rather than their own success in being sinless). Paul in Romans 11:19-22, however, is warning against a feeling of superiority over the Jews, not about being confident in God's faithfulness.

In Hebrews 11:29 we have the answer: By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

If you have a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, you can confidently traverse the depths of the Red sea as though it were dry land (in the allegorical sense); but woe to the person who thinks they can do the same because someone else did or because they think they have faith when they really don't, i.e. they assay to do something that they don't really have faith for, out of presumption.

And thus the attention, the center of Christian living, is no longer Christ, but the believer who must believe just so, and perform good works, and who ought to be occupied with, and motivated, not by love for God, but by Self-preservation.

Now faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God; so if I have a diet of reading the word of God and really hearing in my heart its message, and receiving it, I will have faith.

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Faith is activated and directed by God's word, but faith - saving faith - itself is found in God, in His Spirit (Galatians 5:22). Again, your thinking puts the onus and emphasis upon the believer rather than on God (where it should be).

Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It seems evident to me that the apostle John was describing an ideal, not practical reality, when he wrote of those who abide in Christ "sinning not." Why? John had noted two chapters earlier that no one can claim sinlessness:

Sorry, no. "Practical reality?" Come on now..... look to something as mundane and carnal as football team.
How often do the members of the team DO what the quarterback calls ? The play he calls, THEY ALL DO TOGETHER, right? Play after play after play. Game after game after game. Season after season after season.

How often do people YOU have known for years, decades even,
go out and drive right on through red lights WITHOUT slowing down or stopping ?
THAT would be TOO HARD to do , right? according to you stopping at red lights,
or
DOING the play the quarterback calls is TOO HARD TO DO !?!?

 

[aiki]

Sorry, no. "Practical reality?" Come on now..... look to something as mundane and carnal as football team.
How often do the members of the team DO what the quarterback calls ? The play he calls, THEY ALL DO TOGETHER, right? Play after play after play. Game after game after game. Season after season after season.

How often do people YOU have known for years, decades even,
go out and drive right on through red lights WITHOUT slowing down or stopping ?
THAT would be TOO HARD to do , right? according to you stopping at red lights,
or
DOING the play the quarterback calls is TOO HARD TO DO !?!?

What does any of what you've written here have to do with what I wrote?

Anyway, does a football team always execute plays perfectly? No. The ball is dropped; a pass fails; the quarterback gets sacked; a linesman misses his tackle, and so on. Mistakes are common to playing football. So, too, in the Christian life. A believer may work toward executing the "plays" of his divine "Quarterback" well, but as the verses I cited about the believers struggle against sin illustrate, perfection awaits the believer only on the other side of the grave.

I know plenty of people who have run red lights. Plenty. I've done so myself. Not on purpose, of course, but in a moment of distraction, or following behind a big truck that obscures the light, or when I've misjudged the timing of the lights, or a pedestrian suddenly crosses the road against the light. The Christian life is also fraught with the unexpected, and distractions, and things that obscure the light. Consequently, no believer ever gets through life error-free. Not even you.

 

[BobRyan]

In these scriptures we find that those who have eternal life and shall never perish and cannot be removed from Jesus' hand, are known by Jesus; but of course Jesus never knew them which do or work iniquity. Therefore the promise of eternal security in John 10:28 is for those who don't do or work iniquity.

...

In Romans 11:19-22 there are the following statements:

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity: but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Here we find a few things. We stand by faith and by continuing in His goodness according to this scripture. There is the possibility that we will not be saved if we do not continue in His goodness and faith; He will not spare us just as He did not spare certain of the Jewish people

True - it is called "perseverance of the saints" only those who persevere after being saved - will go to heaven.

 

[justbyfaith]

When we repent and give our hearts to Jesus Christ, we make a 180-degree turn away from sin, hell, and death; and towards righteousness, heaven, and life...in fact we have life, and that abundant (John 10:10) and everlasting/eternal (John 3:14-16, John 5:24, John 6:47).

We are walking in the direction of righteousness country as believers, and become more righteous as we continue our walk; and I do not believe that leaving the territory where sin and temptation besets us immediately causes us to physically die. There is a boundary line that we can cross, wherein the old sins can no longer have dominion over us (Romans 6:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9) (kjv), even in this life.

 

[justbyfaith]

@aiki wrote:

Why? Why is John 10:27-28 to be interpreted so directly in light of Matthew 7:23? Those Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:23 he said he had never known. That is, they hadn't once been his but were no longer. So how, then, does Matthew 7:23 qualify or clarify John 10:27-28? The latter speaks of genuinely born-again sheep of the flock of God; the former of those who had never been of the flock.

Because scripture interprets scripture. It is a rule of inductive Bible study; and also the way the Bible says that the Holy Spirit teaches us (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)). As for your last statement, we learn by contrast. The person whom Jesus knows is contrasted to him whom Jesus never knew; The one whom Jesus never knew and therefore doesn't know is him which does iniquity: therefore him whom Jesus does know is him who does no iniquity (Psalms 119:3 (kjv)). And since John 10:28 applies to him whom Jesus does know and not to him whom he doesn't know (John 10:27), I find that it is the one whom Jesus knows, who does not work iniquity, who has eternal life, and shall never perish, and neither shall anyone pluck him out of Jesus' hand. But for him whom Jesus doesn't know (defined in Matthew 7:23 as the one who does iniquity), this does not apply (John 10:27), since according to John 10:27, John 10:28 only applies to him whom Jesus knows.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jeremiah 32:38-40 is a scripture that guarantees eternal security if you look at it more closely. Too bad you have chosen in your interpretation to apply it only to Israel. It means you do not have this promise by faith. I'm thankful that I personally have obtained this promise by faith; it is a great source of comfort for me and tells me that I cannot lose my salvation because I have a healthy fear of going near the edge of the cliff where I actually might be able to lose it. Because I fear going near the edge, I don't ever have to fear falling off the edge; because my fear keeps me far away from the edge.

I do not have a view of scripture that is biased towards one specific doctrine (such as OSAS). I find that the scripture is clear that eternal security is not OSAS but POTS.

The promise of Jeremiah 32:38-40 is for the people of God. The name Israel means governed by God. So then, any promise that is given to Israel is something I can apply to myself as a child of God who is governed by Him.

Hebrews 11:33, Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

2 Peter 1:3-4, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Corinthians 1:20, For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[justbyfaith]

@aiki wrote:

Paul never wrote, "He will be good to us as long as we continue to be good." In context, Paul was talking specifically about belief and the necessity of it to being "in the Vine." Paul speaks about being in God's (His) goodness (vs. 22), not about maintaining our own goodness. What is God's goodness in the context of Romans 11? The redemption of mankind from their sins through Christ. Paul says that when/if the Jews cease to continue in unbelief (unbelief in what? In the Deliverer, who is Christ) they will be "grafted in again." (vs. 23) The issue Paul is addressing isn't works, then, but belief. And this is consistent with Paul's other comments elsewhere in his letters where he makes it clear that the believer, one who by faith is grafted into the Vine

Olive tree: which is Israel.

, is made righteous by their faith in Christ, not by their works (Romans 3:20-24; Romans 4:23-24; Philippians 3:9).

I believe wholeheartedly in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.

However, goodness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Now, is this fruit something that works itself out practically in our behaviour? or is it only some kind of esoteric knowledge that God is good, that never enters into us so that we can behave the way God wants us to?

Why did Jesus die on the Cross? Was it only to save us from the penalty of our sins, or was it to save us from sin itself? (see Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:11-14, 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 10:29, Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 12:14)

 

[justbyfaith]

@aiki wrote:

None of these verses/passages say anything about God's promises made to Israel being for the New Testament believer, too.

You should go back to the OP and read what I said about Romans 11 (look up specifically verses 16-24). I think that if you read it with an open heart you will understand my point. I will repeat it a little here for the sake of other readers. Gentiles are graffed into Israel according to this scripture, so we can partake of the promises to Israel.

 

[justbyfaith]

@aiki wrote:

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Faith is activated and directed by God's word, but faith - saving faith - itself is found in God, in His Spirit (Galatians 5:22). Again, your thinking puts the onus and emphasis upon the believer rather than on God (where it should be).

Of course God is the one who saves. But if we had no part in the process of God saving us, God would just save everyone. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The same heat that melts the butter hardens the clay. How something responds to God's work of turning up the heat tells us what kind of material is being affected. Does clay choose to harden itself? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Does butter choose to melt under the heat? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Maybe clay chooses to harden itself because it is clay, and butter chooses to melt because it is butter.

It remains that for everyone there is a response to what God has to say. Some respond in faith, others with unbelief.

 

[justbyfaith]

↑

justbyfaith said: In Hebrews 11:29 we have the answer: By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

If you have a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, you can confidently traverse the depths of the Red sea as though it were dry land (in the allegorical sense); but woe to the person who thinks they can do the same because someone else did or because they think they have faith when they really don't, i.e. they assay to do something that they don't really have faith for, out of presumption.

@aiki responded: And thus the attention, the center of Christian living, is no longer Christ, but the believer who must believe just so, and perform good works, and who ought to be occupied with, and motivated, not by love for God, but by Self-preservation.

How so, is my question. It seems to me that the focus of this scripture and my commentary on it is faith. Are we not saved by grace through faith? Now of course in Romans 1:5 and the end of Romans 16:26, the obedience of faith and obedience to the faith is mentioned. So Paul is in agreement with James that faith without works is dead.

 

[justbyfaith]

@aiki wrote:

In Philippians 1:6, Paul exhorts believers to be confident in God's faithfulness in bringing to completion the good work He began in drawing them to faith in His Son (John 6:44). The believer's confidence cannot be high-minded or presumptuous when it is in God's infinite mercy, grace and faithfulness (rather than their own success in being sinless). Paul in Romans 11:19-22, however, is warning against a feeling of superiority over the Jews, not about being confident in God's faithfulness.

It is the work of God in a person's life, not to make him sinless, but to take away from him the practice of sinning. In 1 John 1:8, it says, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This is talking about indwelling sin. However, indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.

So it is the work of God: it is not "our own success at being sinless". Although I find that those who try usually come to the end of themselves a lot faster so that they can put their hope and trust in Jesus Christ alone, who saves us from the power of sin so that we do not commit it. Now I may indeed be using hyperbole here as I believe John also did in 1 John 3:5-9 (kjv). What it means is that our inclination and practice as believers is towards righteousness and in abhorrence of all sinful behaviour, so that if we lay hold of certain promises in scripture (such as Jude 1:24 (kjv) and 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv)), we cannot sin even in the sense of a non-hyperbole statement (see 1 John 3:9 (kjv)). Agape love, laid in the heart of the true born again believer, rejoiceth not in iniquity (1 Corinthians 13:6 (kjv)). So as a born again believer who has been transformed by the love of God, I do not rejoice in iniquity. If I sin I become miserable until it becomes confessed before God. A sheep has no pleasure in eating its own vomit or in wallowing in the mud. That is the behaviour and attitude of pigs and dogs.

 

[justbyfaith]

@aiki wrote:

By not being careful about what Jesus said, you are using these verses to substantiate what you have yet to establish.

It seems evident to me that the apostle John was describing an ideal, not practical reality, when he wrote of those who abide in Christ "sinning not." Why? John had noted two chapters earlier that no one can claim sinlessness:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The apostle Paul agrees with John:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Romans 7:22-23
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it,and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Most, if not all, of the writers of the New Testament letters are critical in some measure of the believers to whom they are writing yet, although these believers are guilty of sin, they are not regarded as non-believers. Clearly, sinlessness is not required for membership in God's family.

If someone is a babe in Christ and continues to act like a babe in Christ his whole life and never matures, or never receives the second benefit, stays carnal and does not move on to being spiritual, continues to work iniquity, this is what the scripture says:

Matthew 7:21-23, Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So then, working or doing iniquity is the reason why they must depart from Jesus and be cast into the furnace of fire.

If someone continues to act as a "babe in Christ" (living carnally because he excuses himself by such verses as you have quoted above) after 20 years of being a Christian, for example, he ought to question as to whether he has really been saved (see 2 Corinthians 13:5 (kjv)). A true believer in Christ will be sanctified over time, until that second benefit is obtained of being sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), 2 Corinthians 1:15 (kjv)). And being perfected for ever because he is sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

 

[justbyfaith]

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[EmSw]

Jeremiah 32:38-40 is a scripture that guarantees eternal security if you look at it more closely. Too bad you have chosen in your interpretation to apply it only to Israel. It means you do not have this promise by faith. I'm thankful that I personally have obtained this promise by faith; it is a great source of comfort for me and tells me that I cannot lose my salvation because I have a healthy fear of going near the edge of the cliff where I actually might be able to lose it. Because I fear going near the edge, I don't ever have to fear falling off the edge; because my fear keeps me far away from the edge.

I do not have a view of scripture that is biased towards one specific doctrine (such as OSAS). I find that the scripture is clear that eternal security is not OSAS but POTS.

The promise of Jeremiah 32:38-40 is for the people of God. The name Israel means governed by God. So then, any promise that is given to Israel is something I can apply to myself as a child of God who is governed by Him.

Hebrews 11:33, Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

2 Peter 1:3-4, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Corinthians 1:20, For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

What actually preserves a man is fear of the Lord.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

Proverbs 2:5
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Isaiah 11:2
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Isaiah 33:6
And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the Lord is his treasure.

The fear of the Lord is blatantly missing from many today. Without this fear, there is no knowledge, for the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. And many of the OSAS camp despise intstruction, for it impedes on their do-nothing grace beliefs.

They have no wisdom because wisdom comes from the fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord is not their treasure. With wisdom and knowledge, which comes by the fear of the Lord, is stability and strength of salvation; it is a treasure to those who find it. Now there is man's security; it starts with the fear of the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

deleted.

 

[St_Worm2]

If someone is a babe in Christ and continues to act like a babe in Christ his whole life and never matures, or never receives the second benefit, stays carnal and does not move on to being spiritual, continues to work iniquity, this is what the scripture says:
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Hi again JBY, a true "babe in Christ" is a Christian. IOW, this is someone who has been given a new heart/new spirit and has been regenerated and caused to be born again by God. The Bible also tells us that a "babe" has been made into a wholly new creature in Christ, as well that they have become His workmanship/masterpiece. He/she has also been indwelt by the Holy Spirit and has been given the very mind of Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, 15-16.

Since this is so, how could the Lord possibly say to them, "I NEVER knew you"

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi again JBY, a true "babe in Christ" is a Christian. IOW, this is someone who has been given a new heart/new spirit and has been regenerated and caused to be born again by God. The Bible also tells us that a "babe" has been made into a wholly new creature in Christ, as well that they have become His workmanship/masterpiece. He/she has also been indwelt by the Holy Spirit and has been given the very mind of Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, 15-16.

Since this is so, how could the Lord possibly say to them, "I NEVER knew you"

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

My point was that someone might think they are a Christian and actually not be. If someone says they believe in Jesus, but there is no repentance; and if they call themselves a believer but walk in iniquity for many years, and do not ever graduate from living in Romans 7 to a Romans 8 lifestyle; if they never move on from being carnal to being spiritual, they should question as to whether they even had a genuine conversion. 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Now if they did have a genuine conversion, then Jesus will never say to them, I never knew you. But what I am saying is that if someone has a genuine conversion, the love of God gets shed abroad in their heart. And love does not rejoice in iniquity (1 Corinthians 13:6). So if I am born again I will not rejoice in iniquity; I will be pleased to graduate from Romans 7 to Romans 8. If I am living in Romans 7, my attitude will be that of self-hatred..."Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death." I will despise my own behaviour as long as I am walking in iniquity, if I am truly born again. So there will be the effort to graduate to Romans 8, a strong desire to do so. As a sheep, I have no pleasure in eating my own vomit or in wallowing in the mud. That is the attitude and behaviour of dogs and pigs. Therefore a true believer will be desiring holiness; and since in Matthew 7:7 it declares that if we ask it will be given to us...and since if we desire we will ask...I don't see how a true believer can go on behaving like a "babe in Christ" i.e. walking and thinking carnally...for twenty years or more and not understand that he might not really be a Christian.

 

[aiki]

Because scripture interprets scripture.

Yes, of course it does. But not just any verse in Scripture can be used to interpret any other verse. You have used verses speaking of different things to do your interpreting and, as I explained, the result is a faulty conclusion.

As for your last statement, we learn by contrast.

In regard to Matthew 7:23 and John 10:27-28, you wrote in your OP:

"In these scriptures we find that those who have eternal life and shall never perish and cannot be removed from Jesus' hand, are known by Jesus; but of course Jesus never knew them which do or work iniquity. Therefore the promise of eternal security in John 10:28 is for those who don't do or work iniquity."

If you mean to say here that a Christian will never be guilty of "iniquity," you have many places in Scripture that will disagree with you. I offered verses in my first post to this thread from both Paul's letters and John's that indicate this particularly well (1 John 1:8-10; Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:15-20). Certainly, a believer ought to be moving toward greater and greater holiness throughout his walk with God, but the idea that the believer can have no walk with God whatever unless he is utterly free of sin is entirely unbiblical.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 is a scripture that guarantees eternal security if you look at it more closely. Too bad you have chosen in your interpretation to apply it only to Israel.

You have yet to present anything from the passage from Jeremiah 32 itself (and its immediate context) that offers any ground for reading it's divine promise given to OT Israel as given to NT believers, too. I am on very solid ground scripturally for taking the view I do on this passage. Can't say the same for you, though.

It means you do not have this promise by faith.

It means I don't wrongly appropriate to myself promises that were never for me.

I'm thankful that I personally have obtained this promise by faith; it is a great source of comfort for me and tells me that I cannot lose my salvation because I have a healthy fear of going near the edge of the cliff where I actually might be able to lose it. Because I fear going near the edge, I don't ever have to fear falling off the edge; because my fear keeps me far away from the edge.

Ah, so it is fear that secures you in your salvation, not love? Interesting. And unbiblical (Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3).

1 John 4:15-19
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

The promise of Jeremiah 32:38-40 is for the people of God. The name Israel means governed by God. So then, any promise that is given to Israel is something I can apply to myself as a child of God who is governed by Him.

Nope. The promise of God that Jeremiah gave was clearly for the people of OT Israel. The chapter makes this absolutely plain.

However, goodness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Now, is this fruit something that works itself out practically in our behaviour? or is it only some kind of esoteric knowledge that God is good, that never enters into us so that we can behave the way God wants us to?

Being a person in whom the goodness of God's Spirit is manifested does not mean being a person who is, in practice, perfectly righteous. A saved person who does not always act in a perfectly good way is not consequently deprived of their salvation.

Gentiles are graffed into Israel according to this scripture, so we can partake of the promises to Israel.

And I will repeat what I said: The only promise in view for both Jew and Gentile in Romans 11 is that of a Deliverer (vs. 26, 27) who will take away their sin.

The same heat that melts the butter hardens the clay.

We are, quite obviously, neither butter nor clay.

However, indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.

In Romans 6, Paul is very careful to explain that every genuine believer is already dead to sin. The separation of the believer from the "old man" (vs. 6) is an accomplished fact that has only to be reckoned so (vs. 11) in order for it to begin to be experienced in daily living.

If someone is a babe in Christ and continues to act like a babe in Christ his whole life and never matures, or never receives the second benefit, stays carnal and does not move on to being spiritual, continues to work iniquity, this is what the scripture says:

Matthew 7:21-23, Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The perennially carnal "babe in Christ" (ie. born-again believer) is not described in Matthew 7:21-23. A babe in Christ would be known to Christ as one of his own: The babe is in Christ. But those who are described in Matthew 7:21-23 are people whom Christ never knew as his own. What you are using the Matthew 7 passage as grounds for, then, isn't valid.

If someone continues to act as a "babe in Christ" (living carnally because he excuses himself by such verses as you have quoted above) after 20 years of being a Christian, for example, he ought to question as to whether he has really been saved (see 2 Corinthians 13:5 (kjv)).

Perhaps. But I have known carnal, baby Christians who were so for decades simply because they had not been taught well concerning the faith, they had not been properly discipled, and did not know who they really were in Christ and how to lay hold of their "spiritual inheritance" in him.

A true believer in Christ will be sanctified over time, until that second benefit is obtained of being sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), 2 Corinthians 1:15 (kjv)). And being perfected for ever because he is sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

"Second benefit" of entire sanctification? One is entirely sanctified at the moment of one's conversion. (1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:10, etc.) This fact is reflected more and more over time in a believer's living but I see no where in Scripture anything that would indicate that a believer should expect to be in both position and condition entirely sanctified. Such an idea also holds a very low view of God's holy perfection. Anyone thinking they can actually attain to His level of holiness does not yet understand how far beyond them He is in this regard. Paul mentions a "second benefit" in 2 Corinthians 1:15, but he doesn't stipulate that the benefit is total, perfect sanctification. Such an idea you must read into his words.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

This verse concisely and exactly describes what I explained about being entirely sanctified in Christ (perfected forever) at the moment of conversion, but then learning to manifest this spiritual reality in one's daily living (being sanctified). This side of the grave, no believer ever concludes being more and more sanctified.

[Staff edit].

 

[justbyfaith]

[Staff edit].

Of course. The bad news is that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God; and the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God).

Now the good news is that Christ is able to redeem us from the penalty and power of sin in this life. There is a coming judgment, wherein the things done in the body, whether good or bad, will be judged in all of our lives, whether we be Christians or not Christians. See 2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Colossians 3:25, Romans 2:6-11. Notice that in two of these scriptures, it declares that with God there is no respect of persons. So God will not respect your person if you say to him on the day of judgment, "But I believed in You, that your blood covered over all my sins." if you were not really redeemed by His blood. Now His blood does cover all our sins if we are redeemed by Him. But if we are redeemed by Him, He grabs a hold of our hearts and makes us new creatures in Christ: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. The old things are a sinful lifestyle, the new things are a righteous heart and life. His blood also cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7, Psalms 51:7, Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29.

So there are those who think they are redeemed because they have bought "fire insurance" from God. They think that their sins are covered, when in reality they are not because they are not born again; they have not received the Holy Spirit and do not live according to His leadings and guidings, which would translate into a righteous walk.

God tells all men everywhere to repent. Now in Romans 6:23 it says, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But the second statement doesn't make the first statement null and void. The wages of sin IS death. So in giving us the gift of eternal life He does so by setting us free from sin so that we will not incur its wages anymore. Consider the context in Romans 6:22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.