Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[JLB777]

OSAS has several different flavors and they all fail differently.

In the one you suggest above "you can't know if you are saved today - - until you find out that 20 years from today you still have not fallen away". That is no assurance at all by some standards.

In the Arminian model you can know for certain you are born-again forgiven and saved "today" but you cannot know that 20 years from today you will still be saved.

In the form of OSAS you described above -- you can't even know "that".

Brother, please just use scripture and make your point from scripture.

I don’t know about all these terms you are using.


The scripture says the way to eternal life is to believe.

Believers are promised salvation.

Believers are promised eternal life.


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving, and are no longer believers.


It’s not complicated.



JLB

 

[112358]

That means even we cannot choose to return to what we once were.

Then please explain your understanding of the purpose of the book of Hebrews. It is a treatise imploring Christian Jews to resist the temptation to choose exactly what you say we cannot choose.

 

[BobRyan]

Brother, please just use scripture and make your point from scripture.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those joined to Christ -- severed from Christ
Those under grace -- fallen from grace.

You cannot be severed from something you were never joined to in the first place.
you cannot fall from a position you never had.

Jesus gives examples in Matthew 13 of falling away -- where the seed "springs to life" - but later dies.

Rather than "never came to life in the first place".

Matthew 18 we have "forgiveness revoked" ... "I forgave you all the debt" followed by "turn him over to the torturers until he should repay all"
And ending with this "so shall My Father do to each one of you - if you do not forgive others" -- just AS you have been fully forgiven.

Ezek 18 -- "forgiveness revoked"

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith... do not be arrogant but fear - for if He did not spare them He may not spare you either"


I don’t know about all these terms you are using.

The scripture says the way to eternal life is to believe.

agreed but it also says there is no way to lock God in a box - and "by their fruits you shall know them".

God provides examples of those with full forgiveness having forgiveness revoked. So it is not as though this is complicated.

 

[Doug Melven]

The word metanoein translated into English as "repent" is a present tense verb as indicated by "pres" in the parenthesis. Present verb tense in the Greek indicates ongoing, continuous action.

So we are to continue to change our mind about sin? Not.
Should we continually renew our mind to be more like Christ? Yes. Romans 12:2
The problem is, whenever you see "Repent" you believe it means "Repent from sin". It doesn't.
Repent = change mind. meta = change noia = mind
Mark 1:15 Repent (change mind) and believe the Gospel.
Stop believing in yourself for salvation and believe the Gospel.

Then please explain your understanding of the purpose of the book of Hebrews. It is a treatise imploring Christian Jews to resist the temptation to choose exactly what you say we cannot choose.

The purpose of Hebrews is to show the superiority of Christ to everything.
Superior to angels.
Superior to old priesthood.
Mediator of a better covenant.
Jesus is superior to everything.

 

[112358]

The purpose of Hebrews is to show the superiority of Christ to everything.
Superior to angels.
Superior to old priesthood.
Mediator of a better covenant.
Jesus is superior to everything.

While true, this is not the purpose of the epistle. The audience were Christians. They understood Christ's superiority over everything. The emphasis on His superiority is just that, a reiteration or reinforcement if you will, intended to underscore the POINT of the BOOK. I suggest a deeper study with an eye toward what the author is asking of his readers.

 

[Oldmantook]

So we are to continue to change our mind about sin? Not.
Should we continually renew our mind to be more like Christ? Yes. Romans 12:2
The problem is, whenever you see "Repent" you believe it means "Repent from sin". It doesn't.
Repent = change mind. meta = change noia = mind
Mark 1:15 Repent (change mind) and believe the Gospel.
Stop believing in yourself for salvation and believe the Gospel.
The purpose of Hebrews is to show the superiority of Christ to everything.
Superior to angels.
Superior to old priesthood.
Mediator of a better covenant.
Jesus is superior to everything.

Did you even read what I wrote? Your unawareness of the Greek verbs is quite apparent and it shows as your interpretation has nothing to do the the present tense use of "repent." We are not to change our mind about sin. Sin is to be avoided. Therefore repent means to change our minds and refrain from committing further sin. We are to engage in actions that befit repentance.
If you continually commit a sin, is it evidence that you have repented of that sin? Of course not. Instead of sinning, we are to repent and obey God instead. If you think nothing is required of us and we only need "believe the Gospel" you are following a wrong Gospel taught to you by false teachers.
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9
Belief is required but obedience is also required. No obedience = no salvation.

 

[Doug Melven]

Therefore repent means to change our minds and refrain from committing further sin.

Change your mind about what?
We do not become more like Christ by continually repenting of sin.
We become more like Christ by beholding Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

As we are transformed into His image, we will not want to sin.

 

[GodsGrace101]

There are mainly two reasons: (1) the early Christians were subject to extreme persecution and martyrdom and (2) there were many Jewish converts vacillating between Moses and Christ.

"Falling from grace" -- taken in context -- means attempting to revive the practices of the Mosaic Law and falsely believing that grace + the works of the law are necessary for salvation. And even reviving Moses (as done by Messianic Jews) contravenes the letter and spirit of the New Testament.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel...For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor... I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.... This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?... But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years... For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 1:6;2:18,21;3:2,3;4:9,10; 5:3,4 )

As to eternal security, since salvation is of the Lord, and totally supernatural, there is nothing anyone can do to reverse it. All this talk about losing one's salvation stems from people who have no clue about God's salvation and Christ's finished work.

There are mainly two reasons: (1) the early Christians were subject to extreme persecution and martyrdom and (2) there were many Jewish converts vacillating between Moses and Christ.

"Falling from grace" -- taken in context -- means attempting to revive the practices of the Mosaic Law and falsely believing that grace + the works of the law are necessary for salvation. And even reviving Moses (as done by Messianic Jews) contravenes the letter and spirit of the New Testament.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel...For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor... I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.... This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?... But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years... For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Gal 1:6;2:18,21;3:2,3;4:9,10; 5:3,4 )

As to eternal security, since salvation is of the Lord, and totally supernatural, there is nothing anyone can do to reverse it. All this talk about losing one's salvation stems from people who have no clue about God's salvation and Christ's finished work.

I understand what you're speaking about. The book of Hebrews covers this pretty well, also Romans. The Jews came to Christ, then they doubted they had done the right thing and began to wonder if they shouldn't go back to following the law.

However, being born again does not abolish the law.
Jesus states this in Mathew 5:17
In every writing of his Paul mentions how we are to behave.
Romans 13:8-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12 states that we should not even associate with our sinful brothers. This was so important to Paul.

How do you explain:
Mathew 5:13
2 Peter 3:17

These verses clearly state that salvation can be lost.

 

[Doug Melven]

How do you explain:
Mathew 5:13
2 Peter 3:17

These verses clearly state that salvation can be lost.

Really?
17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing [these things] beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.
5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Since when does stedfastness mean salvation?
The people Jesus was addressing, none of them were born-again.

 

[Micah888]

However, being born again does not abolish the law.

Correct. As a matter of fact, the New Birth (under the New Covenant) writes the Law (the Ten Commandments) in the hearts and minds of the saints. And it works itself out as the Law of Christ.

How do you explain:
Mathew 5:13
2 Peter 3:17
These verses clearly state that salvation can be lost.

Let's examine these verses:

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

This is obviously metaphorical, but we should note the "IF". At this point in time, Christ was not teaching on the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the baptism by the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the filling with the Holy Spirit.

So while the metaphor is true, it does not reveal that once a sinner is sealed with the Holy Spirit, the issue of the salt losing its savor is moot. Christians cannot lose the Holy Spirit (as noted in other Scriptures), but if they persist in wilful sin, God will deal with them appropriately.
********************************************
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

This verse does not say "lose your salvation" or "lose the gift of eternal life". But it does say that a Christian can fall from his or her steadfastness. So what is Peter saying? First of all what does he mean by "steadfastness"?

Strong's Concordance
stérigmos: a setting firmly, steadfastness
Original Word: στηριγμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stérigmos
Phonetic Spelling: (stay-rig-mos')
Short Definition: firmness, steadfastness
Definition: firmness, steadfastness.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4740: στηριγμός
στηριγμός, στηριγμοῦ, ὁ (στηρίζω), firm condition, steadfastness: of mind, 2 Peter 3:17. (of a standing still, Diodorus 1, 81; Plutarch, mor., p. 76 d.)

So what Peter is saying is that Christians who are not solidly grounded can be adversely influenced by the wicked, to either sin, or to believe false doctrine. They go into "error". But that does not automatically mean that they lose their salvation. God can and will chasten them, and put them on the right track (see Hebrews 12). But again, if they persist in sin and false doctrine, God will deal with them appropriately.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Really?
17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing [these things] beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.
5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Since when does stedfastness mean salvation?
The people Jesus was addressing, none of them were born-again.

How about writing in syntax so we could all know to what you're referring?

2 Peter 3:17
Peter begins his letter TO CHRISTIANS to remind them of the Lord's commandments and the words spoken by the prophets.

In verse 14 Peter tells them to be diligent so that Jesus might find them spotless and blameless at His coming. I can assume that this means that I should be spotless and blameless in doing my best to follow our Lord Jesus and if it were not so important Peter would not be discussing this.

It is required that I be steadfast. Holding fast to the teachings of Jesus.

Hebrews 3:14
New American Standard Bible
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.


Mathew 5:13
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Self-explanatory.
WE, CHRISTIANS, are the salt of the earth.
If we lose our saltiness, we are good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Correct. As a matter of fact, the New Birth (under the New Covenant) writes the Law (the Ten Commandments) in the hearts and minds of the saints. And it works itself out as the Law of Christ.

Let's examine these verses:

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

This is obviously metaphorical, but we should note the "IF". At this point in time, Christ was not teaching on the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the baptism by the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the filling with the Holy Spirit.

So while the metaphor is true, it does not reveal that once a sinner is sealed with the Holy Spirit, the issue of the salt losing its savor is moot. Christians cannot lose the Holy Spirit (as noted in other Scriptures), but if they persist in wilful sin, God will deal with them appropriately.
********************************************
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

This verse does not say "lose your salvation" or "lose the gift of eternal life". But it does say that a Christian can fall from his or her steadfastness. So what is Peter saying? First of all what does he mean by "steadfastness"?

Strong's Concordance
stérigmos: a setting firmly, steadfastness
Original Word: στηριγμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stérigmos
Phonetic Spelling: (stay-rig-mos')
Short Definition: firmness, steadfastness
Definition: firmness, steadfastness.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4740: στηριγμός
στηριγμός, στηριγμοῦ, ὁ (στηρίζω), firm condition, steadfastness: of mind, 2 Peter 3:17. (of a standing still, Diodorus 1, 81; Plutarch, mor., p. 76 d.)

So what Peter is saying is that Christians who are not solidly grounded can be adversely influenced by the wicked, to either sin, or to believe false doctrine. They go into "error". But that does not automatically mean that they lose their salvation. God can and will chasten them, and put them on the right track (see Hebrews 12). But again, if they persist in sin and false doctrine, God will deal with them appropriately.

Yes. And the way God will deal with them is that they will no longer be saved.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you,provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Correct. As a matter of fact, the New Birth (under the New Covenant) writes the Law (the Ten Commandments) in the hearts and minds of the saints. And it works itself out as the Law of Christ.

Let's examine these verses:

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

This is obviously metaphorical, but we should note the "IF". At this point in time, Christ was not teaching on the gift of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the baptism by the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the filling with the Holy Spirit.

So while the metaphor is true, it does not reveal that once a sinner is sealed with the Holy Spirit, the issue of the salt losing its savor is moot. Christians cannot lose the Holy Spirit (as noted in other Scriptures), but if they persist in wilful sin, God will deal with them appropriately.
********************************************
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

This verse does not say "lose your salvation" or "lose the gift of eternal life". But it does say that a Christian can fall from his or her steadfastness. So what is Peter saying? First of all what does he mean by "steadfastness"?

Strong's Concordance
stérigmos: a setting firmly, steadfastness
Original Word: στηριγμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stérigmos
Phonetic Spelling: (stay-rig-mos')
Short Definition: firmness, steadfastness
Definition: firmness, steadfastness.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4740: στηριγμός
στηριγμός, στηριγμοῦ, ὁ (στηρίζω), firm condition, steadfastness: of mind, 2 Peter 3:17. (of a standing still, Diodorus 1, 81; Plutarch, mor., p. 76 d.)

So what Peter is saying is that Christians who are not solidly grounded can be adversely influenced by the wicked, to either sin, or to believe false doctrine. They go into "error". But that does not automatically mean that they lose their salvation. God can and will chasten them, and put them on the right track (see Hebrews 12). But again, if they persist in sin and false doctrine, God will deal with them appropriately.

P.S. I covered Mathew 5:13 in my post no. 291.
Here it is again:

Mathew 5:13
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Self-explanatory.
WE, CHRISTIANS, are the salt of the earth.
If we lose our saltiness, we are good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled.

 

[Oldmantook]

Change your mind about what?
We do not become more like Christ by continually repenting of sin.
We become more like Christ by beholding Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

As we are transformed into His image, we will not want to sin.

So when you sin, and I assume you do sin since no one is without sin, do you repent of your sin??

 

[Micah888]

Yes. And the way God will deal with them is that they will no longer be saved.

You are free to believe that you can lose your salvation. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[zoidar]

You are free to believe that you can lose your salvation. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

That's not a very convincing argument ... everyone think they know what the bible teaches....

 

[Doug Melven]

So when you sin, and I assume you do sin since no one is without sin, do you repent of your sin??

I do not change my mind about that sin, I still see it as evil.
I thank God He has forgiven me and I ask for strength to not do that again.
I do not see how either of us are getting anywhere.
I believe repentance has nothing to do with sin.
Repentance has everything to do with who we are depending upon. Either self or God.
Dependence on self is the essence of pride.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is my take on eternal security. According to 1 John 2:17b, he who does the will of God ABIDETH FOR EVER.

Then 1 John 3:6a, Whosoever abideth in him SINNETH NOT.

Therefore (and I have certainly not said here all that can be said on this) salvation is a transformation of the nature and character of the heart (2 Corinthians 5:17) and cannot be lost; I am also speaking of the imparted holiness and righteousness of God (Matthew 1:21, Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:15-19, 1 John 3:7).

 

[Micah888]

That's not a very convincing argument ... everyone think they know what the bible teaches....

I already provided sufficient refutation to the idea that people can lose their salvation. Some will accept Bible truth, and others will reject it.

 

[justbyfaith]

I understand...but salvation IS conditional.

John 3:16
"For WHOEVER BELIEVES"

Jesus died for those who believe. Those who believe follow Him and are His disciples. Belief is necessary for salvation.

So,
If I believe...............I am saved.
If I do not believe.... I am not saved.

No matter WHEN that unbelief happens.

We are eternally secure as long as we do not ABANDON God.
It would be our choice to abandon Him --- we should know this consequence.

The analogy is more like this: If I eat every day I will live.
My living is conditional on my eating. As long as I eat, I will live.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 teaches us that eternal security is predicated on THE FEAR OF THE LORD even of losing His salvation. I know that this will short-circuit someone's brain...