JUSTICE, JUST and the Wrath of God

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Please show me at least one verse, more would be better, where "Love Omnipotent", God Himself, NOT Paul or some other writer, says in no uncertain terms that He will save/reconcile all mankind, even the unrepentant after death?

Can you show me one verse that says in no uncertain terms that God will never save anyone, even the unrepentant after death. No you can't. There are none.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
Upvote 0

Micah888

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,091
778
81
CALGARY
✟21,176.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Satan enters God's presence in the book of Job.
But not necessarily in God's Heaven. We are not told precisely where, but there are two other heavens which could have been the venue.
According to universalism there is hell but no endless hell
And Christians know that Universalism is false doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"he will cast thee off for ever; from being king, or enjoying that peace, prosperity, and happiness, which otherwise would be enjoyed."
(Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible) 1 Chronicles 28:9 Commentaries: "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
The word in question is Strongs # 5703, AD. Like the Hebrew word OLAM (5769) it can refer to durations that are finite.
It is used in Hab.3:6. If the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" why would they have translated it as "ancient", "perpetual" and "age-old" as they did here:
"ancient(AD) mountains crumbled" (NIV)
"the perpetual(AD) mountains were shattered" (NASB)
"The age-old mountains were shattered" (ISV)
Likewise, if the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" why would they have translated it as "perpetually" & "continually" as they did here:
"...and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever." (Amos 1:11, JPS)
"...In their rage, they slashed them continually and were unrelenting in their anger." (Amos 1:11, NIV)
"...His anger also tore continually..." (Amos 1:11, NASB)
Thus says Yahweh, Due to three transgressions of Edom, and due to four, I will not turn it back, due to his pursuing his brother with the sword, since he ruins his own compassions. His anger is preying into the future[AD, 5703], and his rage, he keeps it permanently. [CLV, Amos 1:11]
One scholarly lexicon states:
"...As a rule the LXX translates AD as AION. Exceptions include EIS TELOS (1 Chr.28:9) EN KAIRO (Isa.64:8[9]) and APO TOU ETI (Job 20:4)."
(Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, TDOT, Vol.10, p.462, by Botterweck, G. Johannes, Ringgren, Helmer, Fabry, Heinz-Josef).
Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (TDOT) (15 vols.)
Bible scholar Spiros Zodhiates states in his lexicon:
"'AD (5703, which see) has about the same spectrum of meaning as OWLAM. The Septuagint generally translates OWLAM by AION (165), cf. NT lexical section, referring to a long age or period of time..." (Spiros Zodhaites, The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, in the section Lexical Aids To The Old Testament, p. 1621)
"AD...meaning terminus, duration, advance, perpetuity, eternity...Hebrew had no special terms for the past, the present, the future, or eternity. There simply was no general word for time in that language...Only twice was AD used with regard to the past (Job 20:4; Hab.3:6). Otherwise it always denotes the unforseeable future" (p.1620).
Likewise from another well known lexicon:
"AD (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as OLAM (usually long continuance into the future, but c.f. Job 20:4)" (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, TWOT, Harris, Archer & Waltke, p.673):
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT)
https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Wordbook-Testament-Laird-Harris/dp/0802486495
Helena Keizer remarks in her PHD dissertation:
"...the Hebrew noun 'AD is consistently rendered in the LXX by aion. This indicates that 'AD is semantically related to OLAM." (p.119).
"...JENNI (1976a)...lists as synonyms 'AD, DOR WADOR, OLAM and NETSACH." (p.119, note 34)
"...Short as it is, the word 'AD turns out to be used as a more pointed and less descriptive counterpart of OLAM. Etymologically the noun is related to the homonymous preposition 'AD "unto", "until", "as long as" as well as to the root 'DH "to go on", "to pass". (p.120)
Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo
The aforementioned Hebrew language scholar Ernst Jenni remarks concerning AD being synonymous with OLAM, DOR WADOR & NESAH & DE OBED on page 855 of the lexicon "The Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament", TLOT, by Jenni & Westermann:
Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (3 vols.)
https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Lexicon-Testament-English-Aramaic/dp/1565631331
The NAS Exhaustive Concordance definition is "perpetuity". The NASB translates AD as perpetual, continually, old, etc..
Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity
"From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition)" (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) at Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity
The Brown Driver Briggs lexicon of the OT lists for AD "advancing time", "of past time", "of future time", "during lifetime, of king", etc. See:
Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity
A thought on the context of 1 Chr.28:9 is that it isn't speaking about the after life or any "hell", but of Solomon inheriting "the good land" (v.8), both him & his sons after him "unto the eon" (v.8):
And now, before the eyes of all Israel, the assembly of Jehovah, and in the ears of our God, keep and seek all the commands of Jehovah your God, so that ye possess this good land, and have caused your sons to inherit after you unto the age. (1 Chr.28:8, YLT)
Most translations say "forever" (1 Chr.28:8). How will the "good land" be inherited forever when it is going to pass away with the old earth (Rv.20-21)?
if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. (1 Chr.28:9b, KJV)
This passage (1 Chr.28:9) is about Solomon. Did he or anyone else in the Scriptures ever forsake the Lord & then come back to Him later? (If so, would that prove that the word AD in 1 Chr.28:9 does not mean "forever"?). For example, David, who committed premeditated adultery & murder? Or Peter who denied the Lord three times? Or those spoken of in 1 Cor.5:4,5 & 1 Tim.1:20? Was not OT Israel continually forsaking the Lord & then later returning to Him again?
I'd suggest 1 Chr.28:9 is more favorable to the UR viewpoint than the POV of those who delight in the "good news" of endless tortures.
Also that the pro ECT Bible versions are once again misleading & decieving the public, injecting their own theological biases into the Scriptures, just as they do with the words aion/ios & olam.
According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.
You blow off all the sources which disprove your assumptions/assumptions,
"Also that the pro ECT Bible versions are once again misleading & decieving the public, injecting their own theological biases into the Scriptures, just as they do with the words aion/ios & olam."
How do we know that the sources which you cite as reliable are not just as misleading & deceiving the public, injecting their own theological biases into the Scriptures as the ones you reject or even more so? We don't!
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Can you show me one verse that says in no uncertain terms that God will never save anyone, even the unrepentant after death. No you can't. There are none....
I have never said or implied that "God will never save anyone" therefore I have no requirement to provide verses for something I never said. However you have repeatedly made the claim that "Omnipotent Love has no expirary date like a carton of milk" and "Love Omnipotent will grant people to repent, either in this life or postmortem."
 
Upvote 0

Hethatreadethit

ClintR
Supporter
Dec 7, 2016
638
120
66
Foristell Mo.
✟118,834.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"Unfathomable Love" would be more appropriate, but are you suggesting that because God is Love, He is not Light in whom is no darkness at all?

Light for God is not only His ineffable glory, but also His absolute holiness and righteousness. Therefore God cannot allow defiling sin into His presence. And unless the blood of Christ is applied to a sinner's soul, he cannot enter into God's presence. Therefore the unsaved are judged according to their works, then cast into eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire). And that provides the reason for the necessity and urgency of the Gospel.

Love works through righteousness:

John 14: 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Did you read my post, THE GARMENT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS? I truly recommend it though I later made some changes but not on the one that is posted but nevertheless is full of good spiritual meat.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I have never said or implied that "God will never save anyone" therefore I have no requirement to provide verses for something I never said.

For one example of "one" i am referring to, you have implied that God will never save Judas. But never proven your case. Neither have you ever shown that God's love expires for the lost after death. Such ideas are make belief, not Scripture.

7 Myths About Universalism
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You blow off all the sources which disprove your assumptions/assumptions,
"Also that the pro ECT Bible versions are once again misleading & decieving the public, injecting their own theological biases into the Scriptures, just as they do with the words aion/ios & olam."
How do we know that the sources which you cite as reliable are not just as misleading & deceiving the public, injecting their own theological biases into the Scriptures as the ones you reject or even more so? We don't!

You might try asking & seeking God:

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

OTOH you might also consider:

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

-----------------------------------------------


According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You might try asking & seeking God:
This reminds me of a story I heard which is partially based on fact.
========================================
A biker goes into a large mega Church. He was wearing clean but worn jeans, leather, jacket, boots. He had long hair in a pony tail and a beard, some tatoos. The "good" people in the church edged away from him.
After the service as he was leaving the pastor stopped him and said "Son, if you come back next week you should pray and ask God how you should dress when you come to this church." The next week he came back and just like the previous week the "good" people tried to avoid him. After the service the pastor stopped him again and said "I told you to pray and ask God how you should dress when you come to this church." The biker said "I did, He said He didn't know He has never been in this church."
=============================
A few years ago a biker pastor, who looked like a biker; jeans, leather jacket, long hair, pony tail, beard etc., visited the church where I was ministering. The church has a fellowship in the foyer with coffee, snacks etc. before the service. The visiting pastor was surprised and grateful for the Christian reception he received. He said he had visited another church in the area but was stopped at the door by two ushers who told him he would have to leave he "represent[ed] 'the world' and he was not welcome."

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
OTOH you might also consider:
Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):
Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.
Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."
"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)
-----------------------------------------------
According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.
“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."
Except for the scripture quotations most of this is the same ol' repetitious arguments and quotes. For every "scholar" you quote who supports UR I can quote an equal or greater number who oppose it. And I will pay as much attention to the "scholarly" quotes you post as you do to my posts. As I said before this is not for your benefit. I joined this forum abut 2 decades ago and I quickly learned the hard core believers of any heterodox doctrine are almost impossible to reach. My target audience are the disgruntled, searching, discouraged, unsure etc. who are thinking about joining or leaving such a group. Every insult that you hurl at scholars who disprove UR are equally applicable to UR writers. They are just as biased as anyone else.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
For one example of "one" i am referring to, you have implied that God will never save Judas. But never proven your case. Neither have you ever shown that God's love expires for the lost after death. Such ideas are make belief, not Scripture...
Please show me where I have ever said or implied that God would never save Judas or anyone else? I have quoted scripture which states that some go away into "eternal punishment" are "thrown into gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." etc.
.....And I have said that the recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of 1000 prisoners released from prison, more than 660 will return. Many of those blame everyone but themselves for their situation; parents, judges, lawyers, juries, witnesses and many try to take vengeance on those they blame. If those who go away into "eternal punishment" are "thrown into gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." etc. are released after some period of time will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they be just like a majority of criminals are today?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I have quoted scripture which states that some go away into "eternal punishment" are "thrown into gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." etc.


Already addressed here:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Mark 9: 43-49 addressed here:
Early church opposition to endless hell



.....And I have said that the recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of 1000 prisoners released from prison, more than 660 will return. Many of those blame everyone but themselves for their situation; parents, judges, lawyers, juries, witnesses and many try to take vengeance on those they blame. If those who go away into "eternal punishment" are "thrown into gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." etc. are released after some period of time will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they be just like a majority of criminals are today?

In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.
Does not address my post in any way. You keep repeating this over and over but you have not been able to provide me even one scripture where "Love Omnipotent", i.e. God Himself, not one of the prophets or a NT writer, says unequivocally that He will save all mankind even after death. Why don't you ask some of the "experts" you endlessly quote e.g. tents-r-us, high priestess Illaria Ramelli, Gary Beauchamin etc.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Does not address my post in any way.


It clearly did & referred to your example:


.....And I have said that the recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of 1000 prisoners released from prison, more than 660 will return. Many of those blame everyone but themselves for their situation; parents, judges, lawyers, juries, witnesses and many try to take vengeance on those they blame. If those who go away into "eternal punishment" are "thrown into gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." etc. are released after some period of time will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they be just like a majority of criminals are today?

In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

You keep repeating this over and over but you have not been able to provide me even one scripture where "Love Omnipotent", i.e. God Himself, not one of the prophets or a NT writer, says unequivocally that He will save all mankind even after death.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It clearly did & referred to your example:
In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone woprovide me even one scripture where "Love Omnipotent", i.e. God Himself, not one of the prophets or a NT writer, says unequivocally that He will save all mankind even after death. Why don't you ask some of the "experts" you endlessly quote e.g. tents-r-us, high priestess Illaria Ramelli, Gary Beauchamin etc.uld reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk....
Meaningless biased rhetoric unless you can provide me even one scripture where "Love Omnipotent", i.e. God Himself, not one of the prophets or a NT writer, says unequivocally that He will save all mankind even after death. If you can't locate one on your own why don't you ask some of the "experts" you endlessly quote e.g. tents-r-us, high priestess Illaria Ramelli, Gary Beauchamin etc.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No, it directly responded to your comment.
No it did not. You demonstrate over and over that your entire argument is nothing but copy/paste from tents-r-us, high priestess Illaria Ramelli, Gary Beauchamin etc. You endlessly repeat your catch phrase as if it was some kind of magic mantra "Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk." If "Love Omnipotent" intends to save everyone, even the unrepentant after death He must have clearly stated that somewhere. Where is the verse, more than one would be better, where "Love Omnipotent" unequivocally stated that He would in fact save everyone including the unrepentant after death. Until you can do that your entire argument is nothing but empty rhetoric.
 
Upvote 0