Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[GodsGrace101]

What happens later if you decide you don't like the consequences, are you still subject to them?
When we are born-again we get eternal life, mostly we think eternal life is for after we die.
But, there is more than just the next life.
When you were born-again, your spirit was made new, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Receiving eternal life after we die is a done deal.
Then there is this life we are living now.
Though our Spirit is sanctified forever (Hebrews 10:14) our souls and bodies still need work.
In James 5:19-20 it says that a soul can be turned from the error of its ways and will be saved from death.
When the Bible talks about death is not always referring to the Second Death.
Could be physical death, sickness is a form of death.
We need to be continually becoming more and more like Christ in our souls, are spirits are exactly like Christ already. 1 John 4:17
So this is why all of the Scriptures say we need to continue, hold firm, stand fast.
Also what we do in this life affects some of the things that will happen in the next life. 1 Corinthians 3
See also 1 Peter 1:3-4
If all our works are wood, hay or stubble they will be burnt up but we will still be saved yet so as by fire.

Hebrews 10:14
Are we already sanctified or is it an on-going process?
God commits to us salvation.
We commit ourselves to God for safe-keeping. The bible does not teach that once we are saved we are assured our salvation. It will belong to us at the end, now it is just a down payment.
Ephesians 1:13-14
We were sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE. He is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a VIEW to the redemption to God's own possession. A promise is a hope, a hope that is seen is not hope.
Romans 8:24-25
Romans 12:1
1 Corinthians 6:19-20

We consecrate our person to God for future redemption.

 

[JLB777]

How does one reverse a spiritual miraculous event given by God: the Salvation Event??

By no longer believing.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Eternal life is promised to those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are promised the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[Bible2+]

Micah888 said in post #231:

If you are truly in Christ, it is too late for you to decide whether you want out. It's like a baby wanting to go back into its mother's womb. Not possible.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Micah888 said in post #231:

However, Christians who refuse to repent of their sins face some very serious consequences, including premature death.

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But note that the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

 

[Bible2+]

MDC said in post #235:

And you, by continually saying that ones works is meritorious towards justification and salvation, needs to be rebuked.

Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

MDC said in post #235:

This is self righteousness.

No, because it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

 

[112358]

Hebrews 6:4-6
I don't know what clearer warning can be given with regard to abandoning one's faith. The ENTIRE BOOK of Hebrews is a plea to remain in the faith. These Jewish Christians were under intense persecution and were being tempted to return to Judaism, where "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" (10:26, which I have already cited).

I repeat: In order to accept OSAS, one must toss Hebrews (among many others) directly out the window. This is dangerous territory on which to tread!

 

[Bible2+]

112358 said in post #245:

Hebrews 6:4-6
I don't know what clearer warning can be given with regard to abandoning one's faith.

That's right.

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him in order to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

 

[Doug Melven]

Even though we have free will, once we become His child, we are no longer our own, we belong to Him.
1 Corinthians6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Exodus 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Once this choice has been made, he can't change his mind later on.
He now belongs to his master forever.
Once we make the decision to become His child, we belong to Him forever.

 

[OSAS 101]

By no longer believing.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Eternal life is promised to those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are promised the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8


JLB

Sir, I do believe you have misquoted Luke 8:12-13;
The reason they have no root is because they are emotional hearers.
Through instability and temptation, they go right back into the world.
No one is saved in this parable except those in verse 15.
"But the seed on good soil stands for those with a good and noble heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

 

[Call me Nic]

How about the parable of the 10 virgins? They were all invited, all waiting, but some didn't bring enough oil. They were not able to get in later when they arrived aat the wedding. I agree with most of what you say but I do think someone can walk away if they are determined. I am curious about what you think happens to believers who commit suicide, because I think it would give me a better sense of where you are coming from.

Suicide is a form of a murder (the murder of self), and murder is a sin that Jesus Christ died for. A person who is saved, but commits suicide, is still saved.

 

[112358]

Suicide is a form of a murder (the murder of self), and murder is a sin that Jesus Christ died for. A person who is saved, but commits suicide, is still saved.

If this is true then all Christians should commit suicide at the earliest opportunity. Would this not be the most expedient manner by which we could enter heavenly rest and the presence of the Creator? That is the goal after all, is it not? Do you not see the absurdity of this logic?

 

[Oldmantook]

Suicide is a form of a murder (the murder of self), and murder is a sin that Jesus Christ died for. A person who is saved, but commits suicide, is still saved.

How can persons who commits suicide still be saved since it is impossible to repent of murdering themselves since they are incapable of doing so since they are already dead?

 

[Doug Melven]

If this is true then all Christians should commit suicide at the earliest opportunity. Would this not be the most expedient manner by which we could enter heavenly rest and the presence of the Creator? That is the goal after all, is it not? Do you not see the absurdity of this logic?

That would be quite selfish on the believer's part.
Paul said he had a desire to depart and be with Christ, but it was better for the Philippians if Paul remained in the flesh.
And if believer's did that, who would preach the Gospel?

 

[Call me Nic]

If this is true then all Christians should commit suicide at the earliest opportunity. Would this not be the most expedient manner by which we could enter heavenly rest and the presence of the Creator? That is the goal after all, is it not? Do you not see the absurdity of this logic?

The wisdom of the world is foolishness with God.

Don't think about it logically, because apart of loving God and having faith in him is trusting your life to him and his decision for when he ends your life, not your own decision. You continue to live on earth to work for the Lord as a faithful servant, rejoicing in the free gift of salvation he's given you. A Christian can indeed kill themselves and will still be saved, but it doesn't mean that God won't be angry or disappointed with it; and it is in fact very selfish because you then become a bad steward of the blessing of life God has given to you.

I'm not advocating suicide as you're making it sound like I'm doing with your "logical" twist, I'm merely explaining to you that suicide is not an automatic ticket to hell for a Christian: that would be contrary to the grace of God. The only sin that is unforgiveable is unbelief (blasphemy of the witness of the Holy Ghost), and if a person dies without believing, they are caught dead in their sins. If a person kills themselves having been justified freely by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus, they're still justified. That's simply what the Bible says.

 

[Call me Nic]

How can persons who commits suicide still be saved since it is impossible to repent of murdering themselves since they are incapable of doing so since they are already dead?

We don't repent of sins to be saved, we are saved by grace through faith. If you have faith in the Lord Jesus at the time you kill yourself, you're still saved without having repented of your sin, because repenting from sins doesn't save you.

 

[Oldmantook]

We don't repent of sins to be saved, we are saved by grace through faith. If you have faith in the Lord Jesus at the time you kill yourself, you're still saved without having repented of your sin, because repenting from sins doesn't save you.

So if you don't kill yourself but instead choose to murder someone else, that's okay because you're still saved - even if you don't of repent killing another? Sorry but you're digging yourself a deeper hole. Let's allow the Apostle Paul to describe the gospel message he himself preached which contradicts your gospel message:
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20
Saving faith without repentance is no saving faith at all.

 

[Call me Nic]

So if you don't kill yourself but instead choose to murder someone else, that's okay because you're still saved - even if you don't of repent killing another? Sorry but you're digging yourself a deeper hole. Let's allow the Apostle Paul to describe the gospel message he himself preached which contradicts your gospel message:
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20
Saving faith without repentance is no saving faith at all.

David murdered and was still saved. Saul murdered and was still saved.

What does the verse say when you read it? It says what they should do based upon the two clauses that come after the supposition: a person should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their works meet for repentance. So Paul is saying that works SHOULD follow after conversion, but the Bible also speaks expressly what one MUST do for salvation.

Acts 16:30 - "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what MUST I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31 - "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

See the difference? The Bible commands us that we SHOULD do good works meet for repentance and have repenting of our sins, but the Bible expressly explains that all one MUST do to be saved is believe. The wording is key, my friend.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Yes, God's eternal security is irrevocable. Without repentance. We did not save ourselves. God's gift of grace saves. And no one can take that from us. Even if we leave the faith, God knew his own, his sheep who would hear the voice of the Shepherd, before the creation of the world.
What God knows, and whom he calls, is not overcome by human will or forethought. Nor by those who would uphold false teaching that claims salvation can be thrown away by human choice.



John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.


Romans 11:28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience...

Ephesians 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

By no longer believing.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Eternal life is promised to those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are promised the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8


JLB

Unfortunately you've found another audience wherein you can pursue insisting Romans 11:29 is false. How sad.

 

[JLB777]

Unfortunately you've found another audience wherein you can pursue insisting Romans 11:29 is false. How sad.

More opinion with no scripture.

 

[Oldmantook]

David murdered and was still saved. Saul murdered and was still saved

Yes David murdered BUT the Bible states that David repented and was saved. He did not murder again, did he?
No Saul was not saved. In fact he committed suicide so there was no opportunity to repent. Big difference which you have failed to account for.

What does the verse say when you read it? It says what they should do based upon the two clauses that come after the supposition: a person should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their works meet for repentance. So Paul is saying that works SHOULD follow after conversion, but the Bible also speaks expressly what one MUST do for salvation.

Indeed works should follow repentance. Works are the outward evidence that one has repented as one no longer practices the sins one used to do prior to becoming saved. True repentance involves trying to live a sanctified life. Suicide is a sin - plain and simple. One still sins when living a sanctified life. When occasional sin occurs, one repents and refrains from habitual sin, God then forgives. Suicide is unlike other sins in that there is no opportunity to repent when one is already dead and therein lies the difference.
Furthermore, in Acts 26:20 you also fail account for the Greek verb tense as the word for repent is the word metanoein | μετανοεῖν | pres act inf. Metanoien is a present tense verb indicating ongoing action. Therefore one repents not only when one comes to Christ upon repentance but repentance is an ongoing action in the life of the believer which nullifies your contention that repent only applies to conversion and not afterwards in the life of a believer.

Acts 16:30 - "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what MUST I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31 - "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

If you had bothered to look just a few chapters earlier in Acts 8:22 Simon who was already a believer is rebuked and warned to repent. Repent therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. The condition of repentance is linked with Simon possibly obtaining God's forgivness. No repentance = no forgiveness = no salvation.

See the difference? The Bible commands us that we SHOULD do good works meet for repentance and have repenting of our sins, but the Bible expressly explains that all one MUST do to be saved is believe. The wording is key, my friend.

The problem is you cherry-pick verses and ignore such verses as Acts 2:38 "And Peter said to them, “Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
This verse clearly indicates that repentance is also necessary for salvation and not only belief as you claim.