Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus didn't say someone can stop being a good tree

What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But ANYONE who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.

The word “ANYONE” applies to believers as well. All of the teachings in the Bible that explain the consequences for not bearing fruit and living in sin are for believers. They are not for unbelievers because unbelievers can do as many good works and refrain from sin as much as humanly possible and they still won’t receive salvation because they don’t believe. Only believers can be saved so these stipulations about obedience and loss of salvation can ONLY apply to believers.

Just saying you have faith, doesn't actually mean you have faith

Amen I absolutely agree. What is faith? Many people think it is simply believing in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Believing is just the first step. The reason many people don’t understand the biblical meaning of the word faith is because much of the original definition of the word is lost in the English translation. The same situation is also seen in the word repent. The original Greek word for faith is pistis. The definition of pistis is to believe, entrust, to have faithfulness, and fidelity. Faithfulness and fidelity have to do with loyalty and devotion. This includes obedience. The reason we are saved by Grace is we can never be fully obedient and faithful. God knows this and this is why Jesus had to die on the cross because if He didn’t no one could ever be saved. Many people confuse this idea as being salvation by works but it is not. James 2 gives examples of the difference between a saving faith and a dead faith. A saving faith is not just believing but it is a faith that produces good works. You see when we have a saving faith we are born again. We are a changed being. If someone says they are born again but still live their lives the same way they did before they were baptized they are not born again. The scriptures say repent and be born again. Now as I explained before the definition of the word repent according to today’s definition is a terrible example of the original meaning. The definition of repent is to have remorse or regret. That’s not even close to the original Greek definition. The original Greek word for faith is metanoia meaning a change of mind or way of life, a change of direction, or to turn away from something. Metanoia is turning away from our sinful life, turning to God and changing our way of life. This is achieved thru the guidance of the Holy Spirit and our obedience to His guidance. That is exactly what having faith is. Believing with faithfulness and fidelity. You see it is not the works that we do that saves us but our faith that produces those works that saves us. This is very clear in James 2.

Faith produces. Ok, how does this verse say you can lose salvation?

If our faith is dead and useless it is not beneficial to anyone. Hence it is not a saving faith as James said in verse 14.

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14

Who gathers the branches and burns them? Not God.
John 15:6 KJV If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

Actually the original Greek doesn’t use the word men but because it is a parable that should be obviously irrelevant anyway. Now it seems like your just looking for excuses and deliberately being obtuse. It’s not meant to be taken literally it’s a metaphor which I’m sure you are aware of. Here’s what the Greek version says.

John 15:6

6 if any one may not remain in me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned;

And you think the kingdom of God is just referring to eternal life? Not what Paul says in the following verses referring to the fruit of the Spirit.
The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
If you are doing the things listed in verses 19-21 you won't be displaying what is in 22-23

“For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God, and others will approve of you, too.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:17-18‬

A bad tree doesn't bear good fruit. How is this verse saying you can lose salvation?

It says EVERY TREE that does not produce fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire. This is specifically for believers. This is not for unbelievers because they cannot produce fruit. Producing fruit is showing God’s glory and bringing others to Christ.

How is this verse saying you can lose salvation?

Salvation is not received simply by talk it is by living or walking in the Spirit. Practice what you preach.

God promised His people He would not be angry with them ever.
Isaiah 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Amen that is true. So who are God’s people? They are not limited to the Jews. God’s people are His children. So who are God’s children?

“Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-14‬

“And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:25-27‬

“But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬

“Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:6-10‬

I will continue in another post before this gets too long.

 

[Acts2:38]

From the Church or God ?

Huh? I am confused by this question.

Are you putting the "bride" (church) on par with God and separate from God?

Scripture tells me that the church/kingdom is the body of Christ, 1 Cor 12; Rom 12.

It also tells me Christ is the head, Col 1:18.

Christ rules from His Kingdom now, Ephesians 1:17-23

Christ is part of the God head, 1 John 5:7 (Jesus is the "word" see John 1).

So both church and God would be synonymous. Doing harm, and never repenting of sin done, to one or the other would be losing your salvation.

 

[Acts2:38]

In Romans 11:11 Paul says he is speaking this passage to Gentiles, not the church of God.
This passage is for Gentiles.

Actually this in not correct.

Paul is speaking to Christians in Rome, and anywhere else. Hence it is called "Romans".

See the part of "provoke to jealousy"? That is mentioning Jews, while talking to Christians, who thought they were the cats meow because they WERE Gods chosen.

Humbly and respectfully, you should read the previous verses since it sounded like you cherry picked this.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Notice those who the blessed are and who the cursed are.
The blessed don't do good works to become blessed, but they do them because they are blessed.
The cursed don't do good works because they are cursed. Not to be cursed.

The sheep do good works because they have faith. The goats don’t do good works because they don’t have faith or their faith is dead and useless as described in James 2.

How is this verse saying you can lose salvation?

“The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:38‬

As you said God’s Kingdom is righteousness and I went over that in my previous post #181

“The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-42

 

[BNR32FAN]

Already dealt with in post 150

This doesn't even look like a person who was given salvation. He is still a slave, not a steward.

The parable is about a servant (believer) of the master (God) who thought the master would be away and began to do sinful things. When the master returned the servant was serverely punished. I agree this servant was not acting like a believer. That is the point of the parable. We must not only believe but we must live our lives as a believer. One who is born again of the Holy Spirit.

Your last comment I’ve already gone over about the Kingdom of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In 1 Corinthians 10:32 Pauls shows there are 3 groups of people.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Jews = National Israel.
Gentiles = Everybody else
Church of God = People from both groups who have accepted Christ.
In Galatians 3:28 Paul says There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So once you are in Christ your old definition of Jew or Gentile is gone.

In Romans 11:11 Paul says he is speaking this passage to Gentiles, not the church of God.
This passage is for Gentiles.

The passage is for believers. No one can be grafted in unless they are a believer. Paul said it to Gentiles that he was teaching to become believers.

 

[Doug Melven]

What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But ANYONE who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.

The word “ANYONE” applies to believers as well. All of the teachings in the Bible that explain the consequences for not bearing fruit and living in sin are for believers. They are not for unbelievers because unbelievers can do as many good works and refrain from sin as much as humanly possible and they still won’t receive salvation because they don’t believe. Only believers can be saved so these stipulations about obedience and loss of salvation can ONLY apply to believers.

You do realize Jesus is contrasting believers with unbelievers.
Believers accept Jesus' Word and so there house is built upon the rock.
Unbelievers don't accept Jesus' Word so there house is built on sand.

The passage is for believers. No one can be grafted in unless they are a believer. Paul said it to Gentiles that he was teaching to become believers.

Exactly

 

[zoidar]

In 1 Corinthians 10:32 Pauls shows there are 3 groups of people.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Jews = National Israel.
Gentiles = Everybody else
Church of God = People from both groups who have accepted Christ.
In Galatians 3:28 Paul says There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So once you are in Christ your old definition of Jew or Gentile is gone.

In Romans 11:11 Paul says he is speaking this passage to Gentiles, not the church of God.
This passage is for Gentiles.

1 cor 10

"31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;"

There are actually just two groups, group one unbelievers (jews and gentiles) and group two believers (jews and gentiles). It's the wrong understanding to think that Paul didn't recogize there are jewish believers and gentile believers, even both are one in Christ.


Gal 2

"11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

You see? Peter (Cephas) was reluctant and so were the believing jews to eat with believing gentiles and Paul didn't take it very lighty.

Gal 3

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

About what you are refering to in Gal 3:28, Paul makes it clear that to our Lord there is no difference between jew and gentile, man and woman etc. Still he wouldn't call a woman a man or a christian jew a christian gentile, but even so they are all one in Christ.

Eph 3

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

Paul is calling the believing Christians in Ephesus, gentiles: "you gentiles" talking to the believers.

Acts 21

"39 But Paul said, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city."

Paul refers to himself as a jew. Paul never stopped being a jew, but first and foremost he was a Christian.

 

[Doug Melven]

1 cor 10

"31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;"

There are actually just two groups, group one unbelievers (jews and gentiles) and group two believers (jews and gentiles). It's the wrong understanding to think that Paul didn't recogize there are jewish believers and gentile believers, even both are one in Christ.

It still looks like 3 groups to me.
Jews (1) Gentiles (2) Church of God (3)

You would have a point if Paul had said
Give no offense Jews and Gentiles or the Church of God.
Or if he had said
Give no offense to either unbelievers or believers.
But he didn't say either.

 

[zoidar]

It still looks like 3 groups to me.
Jews (1) Gentiles (2) Church of God (3)

You would have a point if Paul had said
Give no offense Jews and Gentiles or the Church of God.
Or if he had said
Give no offense to either unbelievers or believers.
But he didn't say either.

"Q: #302. Why did Paul rebuke Peter in (Gal 2:11-21)?

By: Steve Shirley

A: The city of Antioch (where people were first called Christians: Acts 11:26) was where this occurred. It was a city that had a large population of Gentile Christians. Peter ate meals with these Christians on a regular basis. A Jew sharing meals with a Gentile was something that had previously been unacceptable according to Jewish tradition (Acts 10:28). However, God nullified this tradition when He told Peter in a vision that Gentiles should not be considered unclean (Acts 10:1-11:18). This acceptance of Gentile Christians was later reaffirmed during the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:1-29)."

Read it in full here:
Why did Paul rebuke Peter in (Gal 2:11-21)?

 

[Doug Melven]

Paul states why he rebuked Peter.
Because Peter still kept his old prejudices and didn't recognize that in the Body of Christ there are no Gentiles or Jews. We are all one in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Technically true but the doctrine of Eternal Security doesn't deny that. The doctrine of Eternal Security states that it is the work of God to keep a believer enduring until the end. Those who were once believers and fell away were never born again believers in the first place. Once a person comes to Christ for salvation and receives the Holy Spirit that person is sealed as it says in Ephesians 4:30. The Holy Spirit will then work in that person to get that person to live the kind of life that God wants them to live. And that includes keeping them in the faith, keeping them into the works that God wants them to do (Ephesians 2:10), and helping them obey the commandments of God and the word. Sanctification is a lifelong process. If a persons life is showing the fruits of the spirit than that means that that person will endure until the end and that they are eternally secure. It doesn't mean that a born again Christian might not temporarily abandon the faith but once they are children of God they are ALWAYS children of God and they will always come back to Christ.

The doctrine of eternal security states that we have no free will.
So it is the work of God to keep us till the end. So I wonder how it is that if it's God that has to keep us, why do we sin? Does God fail in keeping us? If the responsibility is entirely His, what goes wrong when we sin?

In 1 John 2:1 he tells us that he is writing these things to us so that we may not sin. Why even write "these things" at all if anyway, it is up to God to maintain, or make us, persevere in our salvation? It would seem to me that God requires no help from us, mere mortals.

As to Ephesians 4:30 and the sealing of the Holy Spirit...this is true and we will be sealed for as long as we wish too. I mentioned this just some posts ago,,,here:

2 Corinthians 1:22 states that God sealed us in the Holy Spirit as a pledge, or a down payment, of what can be accomplished in Christ, or, our salvation. This is repeated in Ephesians 1:14. This "earnest" or down payment was given by God through the Holy Spirit as an assurance of an INTENT to pay. The final reward will be paid in full when we enter heaven.

The payment will be in heaven and not before...

Colossians 3:23-24
23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

1 Peter 1:4
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

And last but not least, the inheritance is given to those that are sanctified, the life-long process you speak of.

Acts 20:32
32- And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Temporarily abandoning the faith is a dangerous procedure.
Faith is what saves us...continuing faith continues to save us, abandoning the faith is not a good state to be in as it is faith that saves.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Antinomial = against law. They say you can just live however you want because your sin is paid for.
Paul preaches against this in Romans 6:1-3

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
Everlasting doesn't mean finite, or a short life. It is everlasting.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Acts 16:31 Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
If your heart is right with God, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. How could your then not become right with God?
That preacher who said that was dead wrong.He didn't understand the Scriptures nor the power of God.

If it is possible to lose your salvation, that means it is up to a fallible human being to keep there salvation.
Those who preach insecure salvation understand neither God's holiness or the sinfulness of man.

Those who preach insecure salvation must feel good about themselves because they believe they were able to keep there salvation while others lost it.

Those who preach insecure salvation, when they get to Judgment Day, all they can hope for is that God is in forgiving mood. Because they can never know if there faith was enough to save them.

Antinomial: Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, Paul preaches against living a sinful life in almost every writing of his; and it's obvious to me that you live a holy life; however, many take advantage of this doctrine to do exactly that when Jesus made it clear that we will be judged by our deeds as in Mathew 7:23 -- those who practice lawlessness will be asked to depart from Jesus at the judgement.

As to John 3:16, yes, God will give everlasting life to those who believe in His Son. Please notice that the word believe is in the present tense.
You must believe in Jesus at the time of death in order to be saved by Him. If the life is in Jesus, then we must always have Jesus in order to have that life. John 6:40... Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life.

Romans 4:4
As I'm sure you know, Paul is writing to the Jews. In Romans 3:21 he explains how the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law. The Jews had to WORK for their righteousness, now it is obtained from the grace and mercy of God through faith in His Son, Jesus. The persons faith is "reckoned as righteousness".
Paul is not speaking about works that we do out of our love or our faith in Jesus as in Ephesians 2:10.

As to Acts 16:31 you're answering my request to find one place where Jesus said to just believe in Him. In Acts it is not Jesus saying this.
But it would be important at this point to understand what the word believe means.

What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Is that what is necessary?

 

[GodsGrace101]

...Were they truly saved in the first place if there is no lasting evidence?
The Lord Jesus said: " ...by their fruits ye shall know them", (Matthew 7.20).

Jesus Himself said one could be saved and then decides to leave for some reason or other.

Mathew 13:20-21
Jesus tells the parable of the seed that fell on a rocky place.
This is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it WITH JOY.
But this is only temporary and when affliction comes along because of the word, he immediately falls away.

So this man was not saved
then he hears the word with joy and this denotes salvation
then he falls away and is no longer saved.

As to fruits: Yes, when one shows fruits he is saved - it's a sign of salvation. When one no longer shows any fruit, he has fallen away from salvation. We will know a tree by the fruit...

Hear what Luke says:
Luke 8:15
"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

We are always told to persevere, which means that it is possible to NOT persevere...

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is pure human reasoning.
You guys still haven't answered my question about what parent would disown there child because they were tired of there child not doing what they were told?

There is a good reason God calls is His children and not His employees or members of a squad.

Has anyone answered you yet?
Jesus knew what he liked in a child:
Matthew 21:28-32 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Two Sons
28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.

No parent would disown a son except in extreme circumstances.
However, a son could decide he wants to disown the parents...
At that point the parents become forced to also disown the son...
2 Timothy 2:12b

Another circumstance where the son disowned the parent:
Luke 15:11-23 The Prodigal Son

 

[Christie insb]

God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Because of his inability to lie, when God promises you ETERNAL/EVERLASTING life upon receiving Jesus Christ by faith, you cannot lose it, otherwise it wouldn't be everlasting. Nothing can separate from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39).

I mean, I would seriously like to know what Bible verses people who believe they can lose their salvation turn to in order to prove their beliefs.

How about the parable of the 10 virgins? They were all invited, all waiting, but some didn't bring enough oil. They were not able to get in later when they arrived aat the wedding. I agree with most of what you say but I do think someone can walk away if they are determined. I am curious about what you think happens to believers who commit suicide, because I think it would give me a better sense of where you are coming from.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Antinomians are heretical. But so are those who believe salvation must be maintained by ones works of obedience and if not they can lose it. Both groups deny the gospel of Christ although they give lip service to it. Can’t believe this is even a debate. And debated so often with modern day self righteous Judaizers. It’s so obvious that those who believe salvation can be lost by something they never attained to begin with, DO NOT BELIEVE eternal life rest in Christ. The lack of repentance is so evident. But I will say that free will theology is the basis for this Christ denying doctrine.

Thanks for mentioning that this is modern day debating.
It didn't exist until 1,500 AD, when this heretical doctrine came about.
It never existed before in the church --- if it did, could you please show me some support. From the time Jesus died onward we were always exhorted in all the biblical writings to follow Jesus and to behave as He would want us to.

Do you believe we should not be obedient?
Do you put all the responsibility on God? And what is your part? To do nothing? This is not what Jesus taught or what Paul taught.

In John 5:28-29 Jesus Himself tells us we will be judged by our deeds.
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


John 14:23
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”

James 1:22
But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

God has always demanded obedience.
How is this being self-righteous?

 

[GodsGrace101]

A performance Is absolutely required for Salvation...HIS not ours....ours is like filthy rags
God gave us the commandments to show us we can’t keep them.....they show the need for a Savior.If there were a way to keep them, Jesus died in vain

Isaiah 64:6
6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

I like how we take the parts of scripture we like and ignore the rest.
Our RIGHTEOUS deeds are like filthy rags.
So does this mean God demands nothing from us?
Faith produces works.
Ephesians 2:10
Without works our faith is a dead faith. A true love of God will make us WANT to do works for Him. WE are His hands and feet on this earth...
We must obey Him, after all, He is God!

And what about the second part of Isaiah?
Our iniquities take us away...
Not only those who cry Lord, Lord, but those who do the will of the Father...

Matthew 7:21-23 -
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[OSAS 101]

Jesus Himself said one could be saved and then decides to leave for some reason or other.

Mathew 13:20-21
Jesus tells the parable of the seed that fell on a rocky place.
This is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it WITH JOY.
But this is only temporary and when affliction comes along because of the word, he immediately falls away.

So this man was not saved
then he hears the word with joy and this denotes salvation
then he falls away and is no longer saved.

As to fruits: Yes, when one shows fruits he is saved - it's a sign of salvation. When one no longer shows any fruit, he has fallen away from salvation. We will know a tree by the fruit...

Hear what Luke says:
Luke 8:15
"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

We are always told to persevere, which means that it is possible to NOT persevere...

Wrong interpretation dear.
Luke 8; 15; Is being born again.
Luke 8; 11:14; these are the parallel verses to Mathew 13
The rock represents indifference, receiving the Word with no root is emotional hearing
then they are tested and fall away
This is instability, temptation, and backsliding, all of which equals "worldly hearers".

Take everything you've said and go back to this point, and correct yourself.
Because you keep talking of meaningless things.

 

[GodsGrace101]

John3:16 would be one of those scriptures

If Paul said it, it came from Jesus...Peter said everything Paul wrote was scriptural.In fact, the Bible says we are to follow Paul as he follows Jesus.

As it so happens, Jesus did say John 3:16. Not Paul.

So John 3:16 a couple of observations:

1. Jesus said we need to believe in Him. What does believe mean?
Is it a believing with the mind?

2. Jesus goes on to quote John 3:20-21
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Jesus went on to say verses 20 and 21 because He always based our salvation on our deeds NOT on our just believing with our minds.

As to what believe means, it means TO DO:

In the Word of God, Abraham is called "the father of all that believe." The Greek word translated faith is "pistis" which means belief. To believe is to have confidence and trust in that which you have heard to the end that you act upon it. God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. Abraham could believe the words God spoke or he could reject them. Abraham was fully persuaded that God would fulfil His promise. That is "pistis" - belief. Having heard the Word of God you are confident that it is true and you believe it.
The opposite of "pistis" is "apistia" which means unbelief. If, when you hear God's Word, you reject it without action you are demonstrating "apistia" - unbelief.

source: Believe and Obey