Examples of Sacred Tradition

[narnia59]

And God spoke all these words .. And wrote them twice in stone .. Deuteronomy 10:4 What do you come up with ?

For a numbering system? I prefer the Catholic one because it doesn't equate coveting a spouse with coveting property. It also aligns better with how the commandments that tell us not to actually do those things are listed as different commandments (thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit adultery).

This is the Jewish numbering system if you're interested. In your view, did they leave out a commandment?

 

[narnia59]

Yes i am. We have the scriptures. If im wrong then who is right? Whos church should we submit to? Of course you'll say your church, just every other denominationalist will say. Jesus didnt give us complicated doctrine. Its mans traditions that have made it complicated.

I'm just saying you should find out where that apostolic trail Paul starts through Timothy ends up.

You are welcome to your church of one.

 

[4x4toy]

Now what, I found this .. I guess I'll stick with the shepherds in the fields as my clue

Much evidence exists. If God intended for us to celebrate Christ’s birthday, He would have had the scriptures record the time of His birth, as well as the location. The exact date is not known, yet evidence points to an autumn birth.

Luke 2:8 provides the first indication, as flocks were still in the fields at night. The flocks were brought in for the winter season of mid-October to mid-March.

Another indication is the fact that Jesus was born six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-26, 36). The question then becomes, when was John the Baptist conceived? Because Zacharias’ priestly functions were carried out during the course of Abijah, at the time of the angel’s appearance (Luke 1:5-20), John’s conception occurred in mid-June, as verses 23-24 indicate. Thus, he would have been born in about mid-March. Therefore, Christ’s birth had to be in early autumn.

There is one additional clue. At the time of Christ’s birth, the area of Jerusalem was very crowded with visitors, because of the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles. People took advantage of this journey to Jerusalem to pay their taxes (see Luke 2:1-5), as they were collected at this time of the year. Leviticus 23:24-40 proves that the seventh month was the time in question. When we combine Luke 2:1-5 and John 7:2-10 we see evidence of Jesus’ parents traveling to Jerusalem for the spring and fall Holy Days.

While there is virtually no evidence of Christ being born on December 25, there is abundant evidence of an early autumn birth. The world celebrates Christ’s birth in a winter pagan “season,” when, in fact, our Savior was born during a fall festival season that actually pictures the salvation of mankind ..

 

[W2L]

I'm just saying you should find out where that apostolic trail Paul starts through Timothy ends up.

You are welcome to your church of one.

I fellowship and compare scripture with many christians on CF. I get prayer, exhortation, scripture, fellowship in the spirit, and edification. Am i alone? Why do i need to follow anyone in particular but the Lord and the apostles of the bible? Their words teach us everything we need to know, and the Spirit guides us. That trail you mentioned ends us here:

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[a]

 

[4x4toy]

For a numbering system? I prefer the Catholic one because it doesn't equate coveting a spouse with coveting property. It also aligns better with how the commandments that tell us not to actually do those things are listed as different commandments (thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit adultery).

This is the Jewish numbering system if you're interested. In your view, did they leave out a commandment?
View attachment 227404

That was a slick move Bro

 

[Albion]

Because there are multiple claims doesn't mean that one is not true. But Sola Scriptura has failed to get me, or the Christian community an answer to that question.

Well, you just explained that if there are multiple claims, it does not mean that one of them is not true. You have refuted your own argument from the post in which you wrote--

Well let's see. I can go talk to the Lutherans, General Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Church of Christ, Amish, Mennonites, Methodists, Assembly of God who have all turned to Scripture for that answer and be told that yes, I can lose my salvation.

Or, I can go talk to most Baptists, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Pentecostals who have all turned to Scripture for that answer and be told that no, I cannot lose my salvation.

In short, the fact that there are multiple claims from these different churches that believe in Sola Scriptura does not mean that one of them--drawing from Scripture and it alone--is not correct. That is THE SAME as for the Sacred Tradition churches.

So either system could give the correct answer, but the word of God surely beats the word of Men when it comes to trustworthiness.

 

[narnia59]

I fellowship and compare scripture with many christians on CF. I get prayer, exhortation, scripture, fellowship in the spirit, and edification. Am i alone? Why do i need to follow anyone in particular but the Lord and the apostles of the bible? Their words teach us everything we need to know, and the Spirit guides us. That trail you mentioned ends us here:

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[a]

And in doing so you, and those I assume you are in fellowship with, have rejected the gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) God has given you "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" because you have decided that you have no need of them.

 

[narnia59]

Well, you just explained that if there are multiple claims, it does not mean that one of them is not true. You have refuted your own argument from the post in which you wrote--


In short, the fact that there are multiple claims from these different churches that believe in Sola Scriptura does not mean that one of them--drawing from Scripture and it alone--is not correct. That is THE SAME as for the Sacred Tradition churches.

So either system could give the correct answer, but the word of God surely beats the word of Men when it comes to trustworthiness.

One of the claims from the churches that believe in Sola Scriptura has to be correct. There's a 50/50 chance, and the churches are pretty much split down the middle over the issue.

The Scriptural way to resolve this would be to call a church council.

 

[narnia59]

That was a slick move Bro

Once again I'm clueless...

 

[W2L]

And in doing so you, and those I assume you are in fellowship with, have rejected the gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) God has given you "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" because you have decided that you have no need of them.

I cant speak for others. As far as me supposedly not needing the apostles, this is false because i follow their writings and the Holy Spirit who they spoke through.

 

[Philip_B]

I cant speak for others. As far as me supposedly not needing the apostles, this is false because i follow their writings and the Holy Spirit who they spoke through.

I understand your position, however there is a risk that you set yourself up as the arbitor of scripture which could be as dangerous as handing it of unchecked to an institutional Church. Which is why in the end I go with Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The Word of God is left as our guide. Psalm 119.105. Acts 2.42 gives an account of how the early Christians continued steadfastly" “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”

That passage isn't favorable to your view. The apostles doctrine, is it man made or is it from God?, Did it suffer corruption like other things that originate from the hand of man? If the bible were sufficient then if their were no Christians on earth but their bibles remained, with just a bible another Church could be formed and be led to 'all truth'. Meaning truth not in the bible.

 

[Eloy Craft]

By what is the testing? By hearing His Word in recognition as human spirit agrees with Holy Spirit within, spiritually. Knowledge itself could never do that.

That's Gnostic. If you can find God within who needs an Incarnation of God? Also how do you distinguish the voice of the Holy Spirit from the evil spirit or your own spirit? Authority cannot emerge out of that without miraculous signs. That's why Jesus had to do them.

In scripture the apostles themselves speak of their authority. And His sheep know His voice and they follow Him.

God can be heard in the scriptures but it must be received unambiguously if you plan to receive universal truth. The Holy Spirit reveals personal truth's to individual persons. He reveals universal truth to universal realities. Jesus established a universal institution so that universl truth's could be received. That's why Scripture isn't for an individual interpreter but for the Church to enterpret. That's what councils are all about.

That doesnt mean to listen to the Catholic church however. It means to listen to the real apostles, who wrote the scriptures for us.

Where is that authority? Authority that comes from God is like God, He came, He is here, and He will come again. So what Church is teaching the Gospel without error? Where is the Church that God promised to be with and guide it to 'all truth' until He returns. I know that Church would be seen as arrogant today. How dare they say the truth belongs to them? Perhaps only the Bride would have such security with the Groom.

Interpretation of scripture has not changed the scriptures but those interpretations have. The relevancy is in scripture.

That's the problem though. Without authority from above, placed into human hands, Scriptures are relative truth.

They are not dogmas, for one thing. And they are not dependent upon any "Sacred Tradition" since the answer is taken from Scripture.

One sword can't sharpen it's self, it just gets blunt with use. Two swords will sharpen each other. Sacred Tradition confirmed the canon not the other way around. They work together like two legs that keep marching on. That someone thinks they can march one legged a thousand years later doesn't mean that one leg is better. That will prove it'self and is, in fact, self evident. Your faith is handed down to you by a tradition, and there IS a Sacred Tradition on earth. Is it still on the earth or did it corrupt and die like a creature? Like a work of man. If you really believe that, how can a Holy Tradition emerge out of corruption?

Luke 22

7 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” He replied, “It is enough.”




Apparently He had a lesson there. Two swords in the context He was speaking would hardly be enough. Also, who He was forewarning is important. He was prophesying suffering the entire Church would experience, it follows that "two swords is enough" had a deeper meaning. He would have said that's too much if one were enough. Or He might say, you'll need many more swords than that to defend all of you. But He said, two swords is enough.

 

[Eloy Craft]

If you let a church authority tell you different from scripture be prepared to run away

But how do you distinguish authentic development of the faith from a 'different' Gospel? Scriptures aren't able to accomplish that or else a united faith would have emerged from Martin Luther. That's what he expected but the opposite happened.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Then tell me where it landed because Paul handed it down and instructed Timothy to do the same, and others to do the same....

Protestants can't admit that authority from an eternal source would be inherently eternal. That would require a serious look at the claims of the Catholic Church. That maybe she is what she claims to be.

 

[Eloy Craft]

You twisted that scripture to say what you want it to mean.

Pot meet Kettle

 

[Eloy Craft]

Why are there no apostles then? Apostles display signs of an apostle. Where are these signs?

Universities and colleges in every state and county. Hospitals. Ever wonder why so many have Saints names? Public Schools the work of the first American Saint, Elizabeth Anne Seton. The quality of life skyrocketed in western societies ( formerly known as Christianity) because of these institutions. These are Christ's gifts to all peoples through the Catholic church. Are there any other institutions that have benefited human society to that degree? Even if there were, you should be thanking that institution not throwing stones at it. Notice too, as that institution is rejected by the society it improved, the morals of that society are rejected as well. Seeing those signs may require a panoramic view, but that doesn't degrade their value as signs of authentic Gospel teaching.

 

[Albion]

Sacred Tradition confirmed the canon not the other way around. They work together like two legs that keep marching on. That someone thinks they can march one legged a thousand years later doesn't mean that one leg is better. That will prove it'self and is, in fact, self evident. Your faith is handed down to you by a tradition, and there IS a Sacred Tradition on earth..

Once again, this ^ appears to show a misunderstanding of what Sacred Tradition IS and what its function IS.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Once again, this ^ appears to show a misunderstanding of what Sacred Tradition IS and what its function IS.

That's an opinion. What is your source for understanding what Sacred Tradition IS?

 

[W2L]

I understand your position, however there is a risk that you set yourself up as the arbitor of scripture which could be as dangerous as handing it of unchecked to an institutional Church. Which is why in the end I go with Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

I dont think there is any risk in following the Lords commands. How can you go wrong with Love?