7th Trumpet Rapture?

[BABerean2]

The Holy Spirit will not be taken out of the way for no one can be saved without the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

You have just spoken the truth and at the same time violated one of the basic claims of modern Dispensational Theology.

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[seventysevens]

You prove nothing as you have shown you do not understand the point - the purpose or the reason that there will be a Great trib to begin with 0 but since you deny Jesus will reign on earth you have shown there is not much about it that you understand

There is nothing in the text which says when the following people accept Christ.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

That would be "your derided adulterated opinion".

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[BABerean2]

You prove nothing as you have shown you do not understand the point - the purpose or the reason that there will be a Great trib to begin with 0 but since you deny Jesus will reign on earth you have shown there is not much about it that you understand

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

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[seventysevens]

You prove nothing as you have shown you do not understand the point - the purpose or the reason that there will be a Great trib to begin with - but since you deny Jesus will reign on earth you have shown there is not much about it that you understand

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

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[jerry kelso]

You have just spoken the truth and at the same time violated one of the basic claims of modern Dispensational Theology.

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baberean2,

1. Many Old Dispensationalists believe the Holy Spirit was the one taken away from 2 Thessalonians 2.

2. The truth is that he who lets will be taken out of the way is the church by the pre-trib rapture.

3. Michael the Archangel as Israels protector will step aside so the antichrist can have his way with them for he will wear out the saints when he starts up the Beast kingdom in Revelation 13.

4. Not all dispensationalists believe that about the Holy Spirit and it really doesn’t matter. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

4. Not all dispensationalists believe that about the Holy Spirit and it really doesn’t matter.

It does matter, because it reveals how the doctrine has been changed over time in an attempt to make it better align with scripture.
It is like trimming rotten fruit.

However, in this case the rot goes all the way to the core.

You have correctly said that we are now under the New Covenant of Christ.
However, other Dispensationalists on this forum recently argued that the New Covenant only applies to the Jews during the millennium.
One of their chief arguments revolved around the KJV translation of the Greek word "diatheke" as "testament" in some places and "covenant" in other places.
They tried to ignore Hebrews 12:22-24, because it destroys their argument.

They are New Covenant deniers.

This "Covenant Confusion" has been very damaging to the modern Church, because the New Covenant links the Old Testament to the New Testament.
(Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:16-18, Hebrews 12:22-24, 2 Corinthians 3:6-8)

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[Micah888]

7. The Holy Spirit will not be taken out of the way for no one can be saved without the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

We are in general agreement according to this post. However, the Holy Spirit was poured out for the Church, and indwells the true Church (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body).

Ever since the time of Abel, men (OT saints) were saved (justified) by grace through faith (Hebrews 11) before the Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost. Therefore men can still be saved after He is "taken out of the way".

There are many Christians who refuse to believe that the Holy Spirit is the Divine Restrainer of Satan. And He is the one who prevents this earth from becoming a literal Hell through the wickedness of Satan and his evil spirits. Some people claim that Michael the archangel is the Restrainer, but Jude tells us that when Michael contented with the Devil, he said "the LORD rebuke thee". So ultimately it is the Lord who rebukes and controls Satan.

But we know from Scripture that within God's eternal plans and purposes, the Antichrist (the Beast) and Satan will be give TOTAL POWER AND CONTROL over all the world's inhabitants for 3 1/2 years (42 months):

And they worshipped the dragon [Satan] which gave power unto the beast [the Antichrist]: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months... and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him...(Rev 13:4,5,7,8).

Now this can only become a reality if the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" (His restraining power is removed from the earth and the Church (indwelt by the Spirit) is also removed at the same time. Thus we have this Scripture:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Gk katechon = restrains] will let [He who restrains will restrain], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:7,8).

 

[keras]

You are blinded and cannot see it , You cannot find not even one verse that proves what you say has merit -

I asked you, nicely; not like your accusations of 'blindness', to provide a verse that says God will take His people to heaven. You fail to do so and your tactic of demanding that I prove my case, is an indictment against you.

I have plenty of scripture proving that we Christians never leave this earth. John 3:13 Eventually heaven will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

-that is forcing your views on scripture to suit your own desire

It is the 'rapture to heaven' believers who force their views onto scripture.

You can disagree but you can’t rebut the truth. If you think you can then read Post #838 to riberra which he couldn’t rebut.

You 'raptureists' are hot on abusive remarks, but cold on solid Biblical proofs of your theory.
It is bad enough to believe in such a false teaching, but to promote it with such fervor, displays a questionable motivation. Why must rapture believers be so vehement in their attempts to rebut those who disagree?
Why say we will remain on earth if we reject a rapture? How unchristian and plain disgusting is that?

 

[jerry kelso]

It does matter, because it reveals how the doctrine has been changed over time in an attempt to make it better align with scripture.
It is like trimming rotten fruit.

However, in this case the rot goes all the way to the core.

You have correctly said that we are now under the New Covenant of Christ.
However, other Dispensationalists on this forum recently argued that the New Covenant only applies to the Jews during the millennium.
One of their chief arguments revolved around the KJV translation of the Greek word "diatheke" as "testament" in some places and "covenant" in other places.
They tried to ignore Hebrews 12:22-24, because it destroys their argument.

They are New Covenant deniers.

This "Covenant Confusion" has been very damaging to the modern Church, because the New Covenant links the Old Testament to the New Testament.
(Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:16-18, Hebrews 12:22-24, 2 Corinthians 3:6-8)

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baberean2,

1. The New Covenant in the tribulation will be for Jew and gentile alike because there is only one covenant that man’s soul can be saved.

2. The Jews will be in need of the New Covenant to inherit the KoH reign with Christ.

3. Revelation 7:1-8 are the 144,000 Jews not gentiles. They are the firstfruits that are sealed in chapter 7; protected through the trumpet judgements 9:4; raptured as the manchild caught up to God’s Throne Revelation 12:5 and seen on the Heavenly Mt. Sion in chapter 14. They were redeemed from among men and from the earth and are before the throne of God.

4. Revelation 15:1-2 they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb. These are NC Jews.

5. Revelation 4:1 shows John told to come up hither to Heaven through a door. This represents the church going to Heaven. Revelation 5:10 we shall reign on the earth is future for the saints which are the Old Testament and New Testament Saints before the tribulation.

6. Hebrews 12:22-24; are Old Testament Christians like Abraham who will be in Heaven for he is in Christ and was perfected with the New Testant Christians at Calvary Hebrews 11:40.

7. Nobody denies the NC connection to the church or the New Testament connection to the Old Testament or vice versa.

8. The New Covenant was in Gods mind before an Old or New Testament existed Genesis 3:15-16. and even before the foundations of the world Ephesians 1:4. Got to go to bed but the only one confused is you. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

7. Nobody denies the NC connection to the church or the New Testament connection to the Old Testament or vice versa.

This man denies it.

He claims that it may be Moses who brings the New Covenant to the Jewish people.

Another member of this forum used this video last week to claim that the New Covenant was not in effect yet, and that it did not apply to the Church.

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[Choose Wisely]

Follow @Messagesfromgod66_
God is real. Share to everyone you know. Evil is finished

Not sure what this video about the moon god has to do with anything other than you are trying to show you are confused.

 

[seventysevens]

keras
if you had any understanding to the topic it would be shown

you have no understanding of the Purpose of the rapture

you have no understanding of the Purpose of the Great Tribulation

you have no understanding of the Purpose the Man of Lawlessness

you have no understanding of the Purpose of the reasons God himself has designed and implemented these things

I asked you, nicely; not like your accusations of 'blindness', to provide a verse that says God will take His people to heaven. You fail to do so and your tactic of demanding that I prove my case, is an indictment against you.

I have plenty of scripture proving that we Christians never leave this earth. John 3:13 Eventually heaven will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

It is the 'rapture to heaven' believers who force their views onto scripture.

You 'raptureists' are hot on abusive remarks, but cold on solid Biblical proofs of your theory.
It is bad enough to believe in such a false teaching, but to promote it with such fervor, displays a questionable motivation. Why must rapture believers be so vehement in their attempts to rebut those who disagree?
Why say we will remain on earth if we reject a rapture? How unchristian and plain disgusting is that?

 

[jerry kelso]

I asked you, nicely; not like your accusations of 'blindness', to provide a verse that says God will take His people to heaven. You fail to do so and your tactic of demanding that I prove my case, is an indictment against you.

I have plenty of scripture proving that we Christians never leave this earth. John 3:13 Eventually heaven will come to us. Revelation 21:1-7

It is the 'rapture to heaven' believers who force their views onto scripture.

You 'raptureists' are hot on abusive remarks, but cold on solid Biblical proofs of your theory.
It is bad enough to believe in such a false teaching, but to promote it with such fervor, displays a questionable motivation. Why must rapture believers be so vehement in their attempts to rebut those who disagree?
Why say we will remain on earth if we reject a rapture? How unchristian and plain disgusting is that?

keras,

Abusive? No, because I don’t don’t know you personally and it doesn’t really matter when we are are raptured we are to occupy til he comes.
I do take issue with improper hermeneutics that people don’t seem to like to use.

2. John 3:13 has nothing to do with no rapture or no second advent.
V 13: And no man hath ascended up to Heaven, but he that came from Heaven, even the son of man.
He was from Heaven men are from earth so he did descend down to earth which no man had done before.
And no man hath ascendeth up was not true by itself for Enoch was translated and Elijah taken to heaven by chariots of Fire.

3. The context is that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about salvation as born of water and the spirit.
To a Jew historically, the water was the Red Sea deliverance.
They were baptized by the water and sea 1 Corinthians 10:2; 1-4.
Nicodemus was supposed to know this as a master of Israel and he didn’t v 10.
Verse 12; If I have told you of earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall we believe, if I tell you Of heavenly things.
Verse 13 doesn’t seem to be spoken by Jesus at that moment. Why? Even the son of man which is in Heaven. The son of man was on talking to Nicodemus on earth not Heaven.
V13 is related to verse 14-21 about the son of man being lifted up on the cross and rising again.
This has nothing to do with disallowing a rapture of any kind.
Verse 12 Christ descended to earth, ascended to Heaven was the death and resurrection of Christ is why the son was in Heaven.
John wrote this verse after the fact not Jesus.

4. Revelation 21:1-7; The Holy Jerusalem does come down to earth and God tabernacles with men on earth.
This is 1000 years after the beginning of the millennial kingdom.
This doesn’t mean there is no rapture.

5. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Revelation 4:1; 5:10; 11:18; 19:7-10 is the church age saints in Heaven before the tribulation to the end of the tribulation. We are with the Lamb who is in Heaven during the whole tribulation Revelation 5:6,8,12; 6;16; 7:9,10,17; 14:1,4; 19;7,9.

6. I don’t know what scriptures you think you have to prove that believers will remain on earth and none will go to Heaven at all. Feel free to show your position. Jerry kelso

 

[seventysevens]

I asked you, nicely; not like your accusations of 'blindness', to provide a verse that says God will take His people to heaven. You fail to do so and your tactic of demanding that I prove my case, is an indictment against you.

keras
99.9 % of the time you speak in a condescending manner- without any respect for anyone who holds a view that you disagree with -
You are entitled to your opinion but you have a serious lack of understanding what the scripture means
many times you post a verse that you interpret incorrectly and when anyone shows your error and the proper interpretation you dont accept it

The county's judicial policy is that when someone makes an accusation it is their responsibility to prove it -there are many scriptures that refute what you propose - but like Bab2 you refuse to acknowledge anything that refutes your position

The only proper way to discuss the matter is step by step incrementally like a,,b..c..d etc -that way any discrepancies can be addressed as they come up
posting a wall of scripture verses is fruitless unless the poster can show they properly understand the intended meaning of the passage
Sadly is the case when I ask the poster to give their own view of how they see /interpret the verse and they choose not to is to show they can't do so \if they could they would - they cant so they don't
You should stop with your condescending demeanor and just prove your case

 

[jerry kelso]

This man denies it.

He claims that it may be Moses who brings the New Covenant to the Jewish people.

Another member of this forum used this video last week to claim that the New Covenant was not in effect yet, and that it did not apply to the Church.

.

Thanks

baberean 2,

1. I don’t claim Moses will bring the Jewish people to God.
Elijah is coming before the great and dreadful day to turn the hearts and the father to the children Malachi 4:4-6
John was the forerunner of this message in the spirit of Elijah. Historically, this is what Jesus told his disciples. Matthew 11:14.
Matthew 17:11; And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias, truly shall first come. This is the real Elijah that was translated to Heaven in the Old Testament.

2. Enoch is the witness who was translated Genesis 5:22-24 for God took him.
Enoch prophesied that the Lord will come back with thousands of his saints to execute judgement and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed and all of their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. This will happen on the Day of the Lord.
Some believe that one of the witnesses is Moses but I don’t because he died & God buried him. Deuteronomy 34:5-6.

3. The New Covenant has always been in force since the testator of the New Testament died at Calvary Hebrews 9:16-17.
It is today and will be through the tribulation.
This belief is not dispensationalism. So what is your point? There are extremes to each belief of most system.

4. Finish your context and point. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The New Covenant has always been in force since the testator of the New Testament died at Calvary Hebrews 9:16-17.
It is today and will be through the tribulation.
This belief is not dispensationalism. So what is your point? There are extremes to each belief of most system.

The point is that you cannot have it both ways.
You claimed that nobody believes the New Covenant is not now in effect.
We just found out that you were wrong on that point.

There is good reason for proponents of Dispensational Theology to deny the New Covenant.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[Riberra]

riberra,


10. Proper exegesis shows the rapture will happen before the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:10 `

How do you manage to see the ''CHURCH RAPTURED IN HEAVEN'' in the text of Revelation 4:1; Revelation 5:10 ? - using intensive imagination gymnastic- or maybe being under the influence of illegal substance (funny tobacco) can give that result.

and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 back it up as a Pre-Tribulation rapture of dead and living believers.

Something described to happen AT THE LAST TRUMP 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 which will be The TRUMP OF GOD (VOICE OF GOD) SOUNDING THE RESURRECTION AND THE GATHERING OF THE BELIEVERS 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 cited in the text to happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD ,can very hardly happen ''BEFORE'' THE TRIBULATION .

So you have no evidence to prove your view except in your own context and not the biblical context in what I have shown in proper exegesis.
You can believe what you want but I have seen no proper evidence in a proper rebuttal or otherwise. Jerry kelso

See above, i have proved that you see things which are not written in the text...and you call that exercise of yours proper exegesis ?... Hmm !

 

[keras]

You should stop with your condescending demeanor and just prove your case

Condescension is better than abuse and inappropriate comments, as you do.

Until YOU come up with a scripture that says God will take His people to heaven, then I will continue to oppose the rapture as a false teaching.
That Enoch and Elijah went to heaven does not prove a general rapture removal to heaven of the Church in the last days. Actually; if those two really did go to be with God, is disputable from careful studies. Moses and David died and remain in their graves. All the Prophets and the martyrs souls are kept in heaven, awaiting the last trump, when everyone who has ever lived will be Judged. Revelation 20:15-18

Your attempts to make John 3:13 mean something other than what it plainly says, is another indictment against you.
Jesus said several times that people cannot go to heaven and He prayed to the Father: I do not pray You to take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one. John 17:15

There is still time for all who have been taken in by false teachings, to change their minds and believe the truth of God's plans for His people. And although wrong beliefs don't cause a loss of salvation, it will be far better to not be in the dark. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

 

[jerry kelso]

The point is that you cannot have it both ways.
You claimed that nobody believes the New Covenant is not now in effect.
We just found out that you were wrong on that point.

There is good reason for proponents of Dispensational Theology to deny the New Covenant.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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baberean2,

1. You just outright lied.
I did not say that nobody believes the New Covenant is not in effect.
I said it was in effect since the cross and will be in the tribulation as well. I demand an apology right now!!!!!!!
Just because you want to come through the back door by believing you can’t have it both ways because of your belief that no one can be saved without the church age saints in another age is wrong.
There have been people today who have gotten saved without being witnessed to by a believer of the church present.

2. God called out Abraham out of a heathen nation who didn’t serve God at all.
There wasn’t the Jewish nation or the church of today to witness to Abraham.
The Holy Spirit draws a person to God and Jesus forgives sin.

3. God used conscience before Israel came along.
Israel was to be the light of the world and salt of the earth but that doesn’t mean every single person that got saved who didn’t know the Jews really wasn’t saved.
God has to judge righteously and that is why those under conscience have to be judged by it.

4. You limit God and say the church has to go through the tribulation otherwise no one can be saved without them.
That is the same pious attitude as the Jewish nation had because they were given the oracles of God and being the chosen people. Ezekiel 18 shows they were so bad they didn’t think God should save the wicked if they asked for forgiveness and not forgive them.
when they wouldn’t repent.
The perception looks like you value the church in salvation more than God. Proud gentiles are just as detrimental pious Jews? Get the point? Jerry kelso

 

[seventysevens]

You have a severe lack of ability to truly understand the bible principles
THAT IS WHY you refuse to present a case for your belief !
You place yourself up on high to decide that other views are wrong but you are incapable of proving it and that is why you are too afraid to attempt to present a case !
You have no case that you can defend so you cry about not needing to present a case
you have no case you have no credibility ! Yet you choose to be condescending and bitter and mean in your failed attempt to prove anything ,. you cannot prove me wrong and you cannot prove your self right and you know it so you choose to try to be judge of matters you do not even understand
You are the accuser it is Your responsibility to prove your case - you know you cannot so you are just being vindictive and spiteful because you know you cannot prove what you say is valid

Condescension is better than abuse and inappropriate comments, as you do.

Until YOU come up with a scripture that says God will take His people to heaven, then I will continue to oppose the rapture as a false teaching.
That Enoch and Elijah went to heaven does not prove a general rapture removal to heaven of the Church in the last days. Actually; if those two really did go to be with God, is disputable from careful studies. Moses and David died and remain in their graves. All the Prophets and the martyrs souls are kept in heaven, awaiting the last trump, when everyone who has ever lived will be Judged. Revelation 20:15-18

Your attempts to make John 3:13 mean something other than what it plainly says, is another indictment against you.
Jesus said several times that people cannot go to heaven and He prayed to the Father: I do not pray You to take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one. John 17:15

There is still time for all who have been taken in by false teachings, to change their minds and believe the truth of God's plans for His people. And although wrong beliefs don't cause a loss of salvation, it will be far better to not be in the dark. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11