WHY IS DANIEL 9:24-27 ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE ?

[claninja]

Jesus did NOT return in 70 A.D., nor at any time during the days of His Apostles, unless you count the 40 days right after His resurrection when He appeared to them before He ascended to The Father per Acts 1. Yet that period was not His second coming. Jesus' second coming has NOT happened yet to this day. Full Preterism is a doctrine of men, nothing more, it is not written in God's Word.

I could say the same thing about pre-mill, so let's stick to objective arguments.

So the owner of the vineyard has not come yet to destroy the wicked tenants and give the kingdom to another people? The king has not yet sent an army to destroy the original guests and invited other to his wedding feast?

Scripture explicitly disagrees with you:

Matthew 21:40-41, 45
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them

Matthew 23:35-36
And so upon YOU will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell YOU, all this will come on THIS GENERATION.

Luke 19:12-15,27
He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ When he returned, having received the kingdom....
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Strange how you contradict yourself. You are admitting the Wailing Wall of huge stones in Jerusalem at the temple mount complex are still standing, yet you still want to say there's not one stone standing atop another there

If I said the wailing wall was a part of the temple buildings, then yes, I would be contradicting myself. But I never said the wailing was a part of the temple buildings, so please no strawman argument.

However, even as you admit, the wailing was not a part of the temple buildings (if the wailing wall even existed at time of Jesus, as archaeological evidence has shown a possible much later date of construction for the wailing all).

Jesus is explicitly talking about the temple buildings only. And the temple buildings were completely demolished, just as Jesus had predicted.

You'll have to provide evidence that the wailing wall was a part of the temple buildings to prove your point.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Luke 21:6 As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Could the disciples see the wailing wall from where they were at?

That of course is a totally irrelevant statement. The fact that the huge stones of the western wall of the 2nd temple complex are still standing today showing the Matt.24 prophecy was not completed by the Romans has nothing to do with any arguments to try and disprove Christianity. You are jeering away from the subject and getting into attempts at character assassination with that suggestive statement.

The point is that Christ predicted the temple would be destroyed in their generation. And it was in 70ad. But there are those out there that point to the wailing wall still standing in order to call Christ a false prophet or to use it to push a false doctrine of a earthly physical temple.

1.) the wailing was not a part of the temple buildings
2.) archaeological evidence has shown that the wailing wall was built much later and possibly a part of a roman fort.

And their disciples after them in later centuries thought the same thing. And many today think they are living in the final generation in the end of the world, which we very well might be since many prophecies are coming to pass just in this and the last century. See, that argument you raise there becomes totally irrelevant when you forget that Christ's Apostles did not live to see world events that we today have seen.

My question is WHY did the disciples believe that they were living at the end of the age? Did someone tell them that certain events would happen in their generation?

 

[claninja]

Yes, actually, Jesus did point to another temple for the end of this world within His Olivet Discourse:

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

The placing of that abomination is about the setting up of an idol in false worship, and requires a standing "sanctuary" (or temple). That's the subject there.

Historical Antiochus Epiphanes almost fulfilled the Dan.11 prophecy of the "vile person". Antiochus is the blueprint for the final Antichrist. He took Jerusalem in 165 B.C., went into the temple and sacrificed swine on the altar, spread its broth inside, and then setup an idol image to Zeus worship and demanded all to worship it.

For the end of this world, the coming Antichrist will do likewise, in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem which orthodox Jews even today have the materials ready to build.

You do know that the romans sacrificed to their ensigns in the temple in 70ad right?

 

[The Times]

The Dan.9 prophecy is about Jerusalem and Daniel's people the Jews

Yes.

The Dan.9 prophecy is about Jerusalem and Daniel's people the Jews, not Christianity

No.
The Kingdom transferred to another people. God judged Israel through the many Gentile nations under Rome. In contrast to the Old Covenant where Israel was the Kingdom of God in dispensing His judgement upon other Gentile nations.
When the roles were reversed, those Roman legions were not under Titus, it was sanctioned by the Prince of the Covenant of God Jesus Christ.

Titus was amazed at the personal and total rampage being executed by his legions. They went above and beyond their call of duty. Titus saw it was very personal, but didn't apprehend as to why.

If God wanted to save Jerusalem, then he would have, but it clearly highlights that God used the Roman Legions to dispense his Judgement. Just like God called the Assyrian king his servant in dispensing His judgement upon the ten Tribes of Israel

The people of the prince that destroyed the city and sanctuary are the Romans under the Roman general Titus

Yes

The people of the prince that destroyed the city and sanctuary are the Romans under the Roman general Titus, they were not Gentile Christians under the New Covenant. That's a totally crazy idea, that it was Messiah'

Not so crazy idea!
How do you know that some in all nations were not Christians. Did the Roman Legions or Titus need to be directly represented of Jesus. The Assyrian king was called God's servant, yet he didn't need to know that he was doing God's will.

The mere fact that the many gentile nations under Rome were serving God's purpose, without them needing to acknowledge it or know it. Yet there were definitely among those nations Christians. If two or more are gathered in Christ's name, within their numbers then the Lord is with them, therefore they are the People of Messiah dispensing God's judgement.

So, how do you know that more than two Gentile Christians were NOT amongst their numbers?

Simply put, you don't. So you can't say that they were not Gentile Christians.

 

[BABerean2]

So, how do you know that more than two Gentile Christians were NOT amongst their numbers?

Good question.

There could have been Roman Christians taking part in the siege of 70 AD.


Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.


Act 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

.

 

[Revealing Times]

Because there are two groups reliant on their theologians. (1) historists who believe the Pope/Papacy is the Antichrist (2) Dallas theological seminary dispensationalists who think the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is a peace treaty.

The two groups vie with each other over eschatology.

This is a BOGUS accusation, I never heard of the "Dallas group" until a couple of years ago and the 7 Year Peace Agreement has been seen by me for 30 years. Its scriptural. You are starting to sound like the "Darby" accusers who say they invented the Rapture brother, come on, stop trying to protect that "Israel accepts the Anti-Christ as their King doctrine" which is nowhere to be found in scriptures.

 

[Revealing Times]

You make many assumptions to fit your theory
now you claim that all muslim nations will be gone during the 70th week , that is a lot a of nations that will disappear just on your say so
The covenant of Daniel 9.27 is about peace between Israel and surrounding muslim nations
They have several covenants written since 1967 but every time they have 'peace talks ' and seemingly come to agreement something happens which calls an end to the peace talks - so the covenants have not been finalized

I haven't studied it, but many scholars think the Gog-Magog war sets the stage for the Anti-Christ to FORCE this "quasi peace" on the region, it may even see the Dome of the Rock Destroyed and Radical Muslim Extremism wiped out setting the stage for a PEACE with MANY. This Peace is not about Israel per se. To me this is where everyone goes off the rails. Its the Anti-Christ making a treaties WITH MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) and then reneging on this agreement with MANY in this region, and I am not just guessing, its scriptural. Allow me to pinpoint the MANY !!

Dan. 9:27 And he(Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

{{{ So this Little Horn/Anti-Christ makes AGREEMENTS with MANY including Israel of course. We then see in chapter 8 that he will destroy the holy people (Israel), Daniel ch. 12 says he scatters their power at the 1260. Then we see in verse 25 that not only does he come against Israel, but via a FAKE PEACE he will destroy MANY. This means MANY NATIONS as I prove below. }}}
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan.11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north (Anti-Christ) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. { Jordan or Petra is not captured, Israel escapes to Petra/Edom. }

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east(China) and out of the north(Russia) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

{{{ So, as I was saying, my understanding is scriptural, he makes these SEVEN YEAR AGREEMENTS with MANY or the whole (MSR) and then he reneges on these agreements. }}}

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think he does force the Muslim nations/Arab nations and Israel into some kind of Armistice Agreement with conditions that both sides will have to trust him and his European Union Kings to protect the whole region. The E.U. already has 7 Year Agreements in place with most everyone in the (MSR) and I made a thread on it a while back.

The European Neighborhood Policy governs the EU's relations with 16 of the its closest Eastern and Southern Neighbors. To the South: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestine*, Syria** and Tunisia, and to the East: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine. Russia takes part in Cross-Border Cooperation activities under the ENP, but is not part of the ENP as such.

 

[Davy]

I could say the same thing about pre-mill, so let's stick to objective arguments.

Uh, you first.

So the owner of the vineyard has not come yet to destroy the wicked tenants and give the kingdom to another people? The king has not yet sent an army to destroy the original guests and invited other to his wedding feast?

Scripture explicitly disagrees with you:

Matthew 21:40-41, 45
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them

Matthew 23:35-36
And so upon YOU will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell YOU, all this will come on THIS GENERATION.

I thought you wanted to stick to "objective arguments"? Inserting your Preterist doctrines of men into those Scriptures goes against the objective context of those verses. The object is about the vineyard as symbolic of Christ's Kingdom, and the Son of the Owner being Christ, and His being murdered by those who had care of the vineyard. Thing is, those symbols applied to Jesus 1st coming and their crucifying Him, meaning the Kingdom did not come then. Further, the later 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem further showed how the vineyard (Kingdom) is still waiting today to manifest in that area of Jerusalem!

For brethren not on the Preterist or Historicist doctrines of men: the Matt.21 vineyard parable is about the ten tribed "house of Israel" as the vineyard, and the "house of Judah" as God's "pleasant plant"; those symbols first given in Isaiah 5. The "nation" it was given to that would produce its fruits represents the western Christian nations after The Gospel was rejected by the majority of Judah in Jerusalem. They represent the "company of nations" of Jacob per Genesis 35. But in final, God promised He would gather the lost tribes of Israel along with Judah, back to the holy lands of promise. So the vineyard is actually scattered still today, thus the vineyard parable is not yet complete.

 

[Davy]

You do know that the romans sacrificed to their ensigns in the temple in 70ad right?

Antiochus IV is the blueprint of the final Antichrist. God made sure of that, because Antiochus did most of those things in Daniel 11 to a tee. And the "abomination of desolation" event is about the act like Antiochus did in a STANDING TEMPLE in Jerusalem.

And the fact that today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have the materials for a new temple ready, and even artifacts used in the old worship, and looking for Levitical priests, etc., further shows the likelihood of another temple for the end. Just looking at the prophecies in Revelation 11:1-2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 about a temple in Jerusalem for the end is also plentiful proof of another standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

But in this world, there are many who refuse to face the reality of the times as written in God's Holy Writ, such are those who want to live back in 70 A.D.

 

[seventysevens]

I see your point and I somewhat agree - It seems that the peace with Many can also be the same countries That surround Israel that are against Israel and want to destroy Israel, "to wipe Israel off the earth" So it can easily be that the
Anti-Christ is making peace with the many countries that are against/enemies of Israel that gives the people of Israel a "peace of mind" factor that their king has found a way to stop all the hated and attacks on Israel and they can live in peace and safety for awhile , Even though neighboring countries want Israel vanished it is not until Jesus returns that Jesus destroys those enemies who are positioned to destroy Israel after the Anti-Christ has broken the covenant and decides to kill everyone in the Judean area - I see an earthquake taking place - but one that can destroy all muslims and not other peoples does not seem to fit the rest of scripture

I haven't studied it, but many scholars think the Gog-Magog war sets the stage for the Anti-Christ to FORCE this "quasi peace" on the region, it may even see the Dome of the Rock Destroyed and Radical Muslim Extremism wiped out setting the stage for a PEACE with MANY. This Peace is not about Israel per se. To me this is where everyone goes off the rails. Its the Anti-Christ making a treaties WITH MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) and then reneging on this agreement with MANY in this region, and I am not just guessing, its scriptural. Allow me to pinpoint the MANY !!

Dan. 9:27 And he(Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

{{{ So this Little Horn/Anti-Christ makes AGREEMENTS with MANY including Israel of course. We then see in chapter 8 that he will destroy the holy people (Israel), Daniel ch. 12 says he scatters their power at the 1260. Then we see in verse 25 that not only does he come against Israel, but via a FAKE PEACE he will destroy MANY. This means MANY NATIONS as I prove below. }}}
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan.11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north (Anti-Christ) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. { Jordan or Petra is not captured, Israel escapes to Petra/Edom. }

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east(China) and out of the north(Russia) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

{{{ So, as I was saying, my understanding is scriptural, he makes these SEVEN YEAR AGREEMENTS with MANY or the whole (MSR) and then he reneges on these agreements. }}}

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think he does force the Muslim nations/Arab nations and Israel into some kind of Armistice Agreement with conditions that both sides will have to trust him and his European Union Kings to protect the whole region. The E.U. already has 7 Year Agreements in place with most everyone in the (MSR) and I made a thread on it a while back.

The European Neighborhood Policy governs the EU's relations with 16 of the its closest Eastern and Southern Neighbors. To the South: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestine*, Syria** and Tunisia, and to the East: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine. Russia takes part in Cross-Border Cooperation activities under the ENP, but is not part of the ENP as such.

 

[BABerean2]

But in this world, there are many who refuse to face the reality of the times as written in God's Holy Writ, such are those who want to live back in 70 A.D.

And there are others here who want the whole world to see that Jesus Christ fulfilled the New Covenant found in Daniel 9:24-27, before 70 AD.


In the passage below from the NKJV the text from the Old Testament is written in Uppercase letters.
The first two verses come straight from the promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"

Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel.

.

 

[Davy]

No.
The Kingdom transferred to another people. God judged Israel through the many Gentile nations under Rome. In contrast to the Old Covenant where Israel was the Kingdom of God in dispensing His judgement upon other Gentile nations.
When the roles were reversed, those Roman legions were not under Titus, it was sanctioned by the Prince of the Covenant of God Jesus Christ.

In the Matt.21 vineyard parable, the ten-tribed "house of Israel" is represented by the vineyard. The vineyard symbols were first given in Isaiah 5:

Isa 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

To this day, the ten-tribed house of Israel is still lost to the Jews and to the world. Yet in Amos 9:9, God said He would gather them like corn through a seive, and not the least grain would fall to the ground. In many OT passages, they are to be gathered back to the holy land with Judah. So you can't say the ten-tribed house of Israel (the vineyard) is no longer a part of God's future Kingdom.

Titus was amazed at the personal and total rampage being executed by his legions. They went above and beyond their call of duty. Titus saw it was very personal, but didn't apprehend as to why.

Titus and his army is who destroyed Jerusalem, and all God had to do was pronounce its destruction and allow it to happen. Jerusalem has been sieged at least 27 times in its history, and destroyed more than once. God allowed them all to happen, but He Himself didn't do it. He warned His people through Moses what would happen if they went after idols and forgot Him (Deut.4 & 28). So if you're going to try and remove the responsibility of Jerusalem's 70 A.D. destruction from the Romans, then the actual ultimate responsibility for its destruction was the rebellious Jews of that time. Still, the Romans are the ones who LITERALLY destroyed it, and that is who the 2nd sentence of Dan.9:26 is speaking about; it's not speaking of who ultimately was responsible, but the ones who actually carried the sentence out, i.e., Titus and the Romans.

 

[Revealing Times]

I see your point and I somewhat agree - It seems that the peace with Many can also be the same countries That surround Israel that are against Israel and want to destroy Israel, "to wipe Israel off the earth" So it can easily be that the
Anti-Christ is making peace with the many countries that are against/enemies of Israel that gives the people of Israel a "peace of mind" factor that their king has found a way to stop all the hated and attacks on Israel and they can live in peace and safety for awhile , Even though neighboring countries want Israel vanished it is not until Jesus returns that Jesus destroys those enemies who are positioned to destroy Israel after the Anti-Christ has broken the covenant and decides to kill everyone in the Judean area - I see an earthquake taking place - but one that can destroy all muslims and not other peoples does not seem to fit the rest of scripture

What of the Gog Magog War (or some war that comes just before the Rapture) winds up destroying all the Radical factions on all of Islam, what if this Man of Sin some kind of way leads destruction of the Radical Islamist throughout the whole world. He would gain on posterity, Israel would probably trust him somewhat. Or, he might destroy these Radicals and then have stern words for the Arab, Muslims and Israel forcing them to give up their weapons and allow the European Union to become their de facto protectors like the USA protected Japan and Germany for 75 years. Either way, this Anti-Christ, European Leader forces or entices the whole region into AGREEMENTS where he has a tactical advantage via a Blitzkrieg of sorts if he wants to attack in a violent rush, and that's exactly what he will do. We can't know all of the particulars, but where it took most of those other Empires years to become Empires (Besides Alexander the Great), this man will become a Beast over the Mediterranean Sea Region overnight it seems. Of course with today's weapons, if one is will to use them in a tyrannical manner (See Hitler) he can Conquer vast areas quickly.

I think these other Countries are going to be dictated to in violent ways also, this man is going to totally destroy all religions (Islam and all religions) in order to be worshiped as the only God. So its going to be every man/country for himself, even these other Countries are going to suffer. But their hatred for Israel will eventually show up. I think the Kings of the East in Rev. 16 is Iran, Iraq, Turkey, I don't actually think the nations in and around Israel attack her during the end times (I saw that on YOUTUBE from I think David Reagan the other day) but I have to research this more. We know Jordan doesn't because Israel escapes there. I will have to re-watch the video, he was naming 9 Wars of the end times, saying people only seen to think about the Armageddon war but he names like 9 end times wars. Gog and Magog was one.

Remember, his goal is world domination, to be worshiped as God, he needs to gain as much territory as possible in a fast blitzkrieg like strike.

 

[Revealing Times]

Antiochus IV is the blueprint of the final Antichrist. God made sure of that, because Antiochus did most of those things in Daniel 11 to a tee. And the "abomination of desolation" event is about the act like Antiochus did in a STANDING TEMPLE in Jerusalem.

I saw something else while studying this the other night, w all see Antiochus Epiphanes as a TYPE but do we miss his running partner?

I saw something new that I had never thought of via the Antiochus/Abomination angle yesterday. Jason bribed Antiochus to become the High Priest, his brother Onias III was killed by Antiochus and Jason thus became the High Priest he changed his name from Yeshuah to a Hellenized Jason. Maybe hes a TYPE of the False Prophet !! He betrayed his own people.

Since I see Israel as having repented by the time the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem because I think the 1335 is the Two-witnesses showing up to turn Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6), the High Priest of Israel would be the same High Priest we currently have, Jesus, and to them he would be called Yeshua. Then they would get a False Prophet like Jason.

Interesting times we live in !!

 

[The Times]

To this day, the ten-tribed house of Israel is still lost to the Jews and to the world. Yet in Amos 9:9, God said He would gather them like corn through a seive, and not the least grain would fall to the ground.

Ten tribes of Israel is lost to the Jews?
Yes.
Ten tribes of Israel is lost to the world?
No.

God has allready gathered them under his SEED of Promise Jesus Christ, the King of the Commonwealth of Israel.

Those ten tribes were assimilated by the Assyrians and are the greater Europe now. You cannot un-assimilate what has been assimulated over the course of history, some 4000 years.

So you can't say the ten-tribed house of Israel (the vineyard) is no longer a part of God's future Kingdom.

God established his Kingdom according to Daniel 2:44, within the 1st Century.

Does scripture state that God will bring back Israel and Judah from captivity?

7I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before. 8I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me.

How does God do this and through whom?

4“ ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15“ ‘In those days and at that time

I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;

he will do what is just and right in the land.

16In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’

17For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’ ”

The prophecy speaks of Jesus coming and being given the Kingdom to sit on the throne of David and to minister on our behalves in the Holy of Holies, as our Kingly High Priest.

Obviously the promise, along with the prophecy has been fulfilled in the Promised Seed Jesus Christ.

As far as God is concerned, Israel and Judah have been united through Christ and it therefore follows that Israel was assimilated within the Gentile nations and are representative of the many Gentile nations of Europe, that is Greater Rome within the 1st Century context.

Jerusalem has been sieged at least 27 times in its history, and destroyed more than once. God allowed them all to happen, but He Himself didn't do it.

6Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. 7All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him.

8“ ‘ “If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the Lord, until I destroy it by his hand. 9So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon.’ 10They prophesy lies to you that will only serve to remove you far from your lands; I will banish you and you will perish. 11But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the Lord.” ’ ”

12I gave the same message to Zedekiah king of Judah. I said, “Bow your neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon; serve him and his people, and you will live. 13Why will you and your people die by the sword, famine and plague with which the Lord has threatened any nation that will not serve the king of Babylon? 14Do not listen to the words of the prophets who say to you, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon,’ for they are prophesying lies to you. 15‘I have not sent them,’ declares the Lord. ‘They are prophesying lies in my name. Therefore, I will banish you and you will perish, both you and the prophets who prophesy to you.’ ”

God used Titus and the Romans as his servants and so those Gentiles became the Lord's forces against Jerusalem, just like Nebuchadnezzar was sent to burn Jerusalem and kill Zedekiah's sons in front of him and blinded Zedekiah's eyes afterwards.

The People of the Prince are Gentile servants of the Lord, sent to dispense God's judgement.

Still, the Romans are the ones who LITERALLY destroyed it, and that is who the 2nd sentence of Dan.9:26 is speaking about; it's not speaking of who ultimately was responsible, but the ones who actually carried the sentence out, i.e., Titus and the Romans.

God is credited for the destruction of Jerusalem and its inhabitants, because they rejected the Prince of the Covenant Jesus Christ and miserably failed to meet the six condition criteria, in anointing the Most High, meaning as Jesus told them, they must say blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord.

As scripture states........

12Kiss his son, or he will be angry

and your way will lead to your destruction,

for his wrath can flare up in a moment. (Psalm 2)

 

[Davy]

I saw something else while studying this the other night, w all see Antiochus Epiphanes as a TYPE but do we miss his running partner?

I saw something new that I had never thought of via the Antiochus/Abomination angle yesterday. Jason bribed Antiochus to become the High Priest, his brother Onias III was killed by Antiochus and Jason thus became the High Priest he changed his name from Yeshuah to a Hellenized Jason. Maybe hes a TYPE of the False Prophet !! He betrayed his own people.

Since I see Israel as having repented by the time the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem because I think the 1335 is the Two-witnesses showing up to turn Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6), the High Priest of Israel would be the same High Priest we currently have, Jesus, and to them he would be called Yeshua. Then they would get a False Prophet like Jason.

Interesting times we live in !!

At present, I assign the "false prophet" of Rev.16 & 19 as just another role the Antichrist will play, the actual one who does the great signs and wonders of Rev.13:11 forward, and Matt.24:23-26, and 2 Thess.2.

I do not see the unbelieving Jews repenting and believing on Jesus until Jesus actually appears coming in the clouds on the last day of this world.

Per Rev.11, God's two witnesses are killed at the end of their 1260 days of prophesying. Then 3.5 days later they arise, and the 7th Trumplet blows signaling the coming of Christ and end of this world. Thus the 1290 days and 1335 days of the Book of Daniel, are for after Jesus has returned.

 

[BABerean2]

I do not see the unbelieving Jews repenting and believing on Jesus until Jesus actually appears coming in the clouds on the last day of this world.

In 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 Paul reveals that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.

In the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25 Christ reveals that those not ready at His return will be rejected.

Based on the passages above, nobody will be saved on the day of His Second Coming.

.

 

[Davy]

Ten tribes of Israel is lost to the Jews?
Yes.
Ten tribes of Israel is lost to the world?
No.

God has allready gathered them under his SEED of Promise Jesus Christ, the King of the Commonwealth of Israel.

Those ten tribes were assimilated by the Assyrians and are the greater Europe now. You cannot un-assimilate what has been assimulated over the course of history, some 4000 years.

Yes, I too believe the majority of the ten tribes were scattered to the western nations and became the Christian nations, fulfilling the prophecies that Jacob's seed would become a "company of nations" and that Ephraim's see would become a "multitude of nations" (Gen.35 & 48). Yet in Jerusalem is where God's Kingdom is to be established with the return of all 12 tribes and believing Gentiles under Christ Jesus.

God established his Kingdom according to Daniel 2:44, within the 1st Century.

That Scripture has yet to be fulfilled. It is for the time of Christ's 2nd coming, which is still future. The five piece beast statue still has one final kingdom to be established over the whole earth before Jesus returns (Rev.13). And Jesus will literally return to this earth like Acts 1 declares.

Does scripture state that God will bring back Israel and Judah from captivity?

7I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before. 8I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me.

How does God do this and through whom?

4“ ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15“ ‘In those days and at that time

I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;

he will do what is just and right in the land.

16In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’

17For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’ ”

The prophecy speaks of Jesus coming and being given the Kingdom to sit on the throne of David and to minister on our behalves in the Holy of Holies, as our Kingly High Priest.

Obviously the promise, along with the prophecy has been fulfilled in the Promised Seed Jesus Christ.

You're mixing up a lot of OT verses. The return of the house of Israel and house of Judah, both sticks being put back together in the holy land with David as their king in Jerusalem is still yet to happen today (Ezekiel 37; Jer.23:3 especially!). Jesus is to inherit David's throne which is an earthly throne at Jerusalem on earth. There still is no throne established in Jerusalem today with one of the house of David sitting on it. Only Jesus will fulfill that when He returns. But for the future tribulatiion, the coming Antichrist is going to try and fulfill that, working with a small group of traitors there in Jerusalem (Dan.11).

As far as God is concerned, Israel and Judah have been united through Christ and it therefore follows that Israel was assimilated within the Gentile nations and are representative of the many Gentile nations of Europe, that is Greater Rome within the 1st Century context.

That is a very wild... assumption. Nothing of that sort has happened yet today. The majority of Jews in the world today still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. And by the way, Britain was a Christian nation while the Romans were still pagan. So the "Greater Rome within the 1st Century context" isn't really all that authentic.

God used Titus and the Romans as his servants and so those Gentiles became the Lord's forces against Jerusalem, just like Nebuchadnezzar was sent to burn Jerusalem and kill Zedekiah's sons in front of him and blinded Zedekiah's eyes afterwards.

The People of the Prince are Gentile servants of the Lord, sent to dispense God's judgement.

The fact still is that it was the Roman general Titus and his army that 'literally' destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, and that's what the 2nd sentence of the Dan.9:26 verse is about. Speculation that someone else did it is just that, speculation and not fact.

 

[jgr]

The fact still is that it was the Roman general Titus and his army that 'literally' destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, and that's what the 2nd sentence of the Dan.9:26 verse is about. Speculation that someone else did it is just that, speculation and not fact.

Still seeing things, I see.

I see Messiah.

I don't see Titus. Neither does anyone else.

 

[claninja]

The object is about the vineyard as symbolic of Christ's Kingdom, and the Son of the Owner being Christ, and His being murdered by those who had care of the vineyard.

Partially agree.

Part of the of parable of the wicked tenants, is as you state: the wicked tenants kill the servants sent by the vineyard owner, then they kill the son of the vineyard owner. This is about Jesus' coming in the flesh

I bet we can agree this is about the killing of the prophets and the crucifying of Jesus by the Jews.

But the other point of the parable is what happens to those who killed the vineyard owners son.

So, what happens to those Jews, that killed the vineyard owner's son, when the vineyard owner comes?
According to the pharisees, the vineyard owner 'ends' the wicked tenants and gives the vineyard to a new people:
Matthew 21:41
“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his fruits in their seasons.”

Jesus then tells the pharisees, that God will take the kingdom of God away from them and give it to a new people.
Matthew 23:43
Therefore I tell YOU that the kingdom of God will be taken away from YOU and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

The pharisees then realize Jesus is talking about them:
Matthew 23:45
When the chief priests and Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew He was speaking about them.

Objectively, without changing any meaning, we can clearly see that Jesus is talking about the destruction of wicked tenants, who are the pharisees standing in front of him.

Thing is, those symbols applied to Jesus 1st coming and their crucifying Him, meaning the Kingdom did not come then. Further, the later 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem further showed how the vineyard (Kingdom) is still waiting today to manifest in that area of Jerusalem!

If you believe the coming of the kingdom of God means Jesus' future literal reign on earth in a political fashion, just as the unbelieving Jews did, then you completely misunderstand the kingdom of God, and any further debate will be futile.

But if you understand the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, to which a nobleman went to a far away country to receive and then return, and that it is not of this world, then maybe a dialogue can begin.

the Matt.21 vineyard parable is about the ten tribed "house of Israel" as the vineyard, and the "house of Judah" as God's "pleasant plant"; those symbols first given in Isaiah 5.

Absolutely disagree, the vineyard is NOT the house of Israel and Judah, in this parable.

The only way I could agree, is if the by house of israel and judah being the vineyard, that when the wicked tenants are ended, the other nations are grafted in. In other words, the gentiles are grafted in to the seed of Abraham, while unbelieving Jews are cut off.

The wicked tenants are unfaithful Israel, who killed the prophets and the vineyard owner's son.

The "nation" it was given to that would produce its fruits represents the western Christian nations after The Gospel was rejected by the majority of Judah in Jerusalem.

"western christian" nations? what?

No the other nation the kingdom is given to is the gentile nations along with believing Jews:

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

But in final, God promised He would gather the lost tribes of Israel along with Judah, back to the holy lands of promise. So the vineyard is actually scattered still today, thus the vineyard parable is not yet complete.

The parable of the wicked tenants was completed in 70ad, when the owner of the vineyard came and ended the wicked tenants that killed his son.

Even the pharisees knew that Jesus was talking about them.

 

[claninja]

Antiochus IV is the blueprint of the final Antichrist. God made sure of that, because Antiochus did most of those things in Daniel 11 to a tee. And the "abomination of desolation" event is about the act like Antiochus did in a STANDING TEMPLE in Jerusalem.

And the fact that today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have the materials for a new temple ready, and even artifacts used in the old worship, and looking for Levitical priests, etc., further shows the likelihood of another temple for the end. Just looking at the prophecies in Revelation 11:1-2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 about a temple in Jerusalem for the end is also plentiful proof of another standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

But in this world, there are many who refuse to face the reality of the times as written in God's Holy Writ, such are those who want to live back in 70 A.D.

This doesn't answer my question.

You do know that the romans sacrificed to their ensigns when they were destroying the temple, right?