Are Protestants dead?

[Strong in Him]

Sorry I did it again. Replied to the wrong person lol.

It's ok.

 

[Strong in Him]

OK. So you think all His words spoken to men of His time and apostles are not applicable to us now?

Who said anything about that?
Saying that Jesus spoke to his disciples privately on one occasion, does not mean that ALL his words were only for the 12 and are not for us.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why is that Martin Luther wanted the books of James, Hebrews and Revelation removed from the canon?

I don't know - the fact is, though, that they weren't.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Christ had to suffer and die on the cross to pay for our sins. He is not still suffering brother.

If you want to get mired in semantics about my post, well, I can’t stop you. I do think it’s a little silly though.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you want to get mired in semantics about my post, well, I can’t stop you. I do think it’s a little silly though.

Forgive me brother I did not mean to offend you. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what your saying. Lol

 

[Strong in Him]

Where did Jesus claim that He was also God?

He didn't use the words "I am God"; if you need to see those to believe, they're not there.

But he forgave sins - and the Jews said "who can forgive sins but God alone?", Mark 2:7.
He used the name of God, I AM - and the Jews KNEW he was doing this because they picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy, John 8:58-59.
He said "I and the Father are one", John 10:30 - and they again picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy, John 10:31. When Jesus asked why, they said, "because you, a mere man, claim to be God", John 10:33.
He asked his Father to glorify him with the glory he had shared with him before the world began, John 17:5.
After his resurrection he accepted worship from them, Matthew 28:17, John 20:28.
After his resurrection he said that ALL authority in heaven and earth had been given to him, Matthew 28:18.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where did Jesus claim that He was also God?

““I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8‬

““Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

““Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:12‬ ‭

“This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:6‬

“Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the Lord, the First and the Last. I alone am he.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭41:4‬

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

““Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:8‬

 

[BukiRob]

And, again, He is still paying for our sins.

Umh NO not even close.

When Yeshua said IT IS FINISHED there were no asterisks.

He is the ETERNAL Passover sacrifice and his death COVERED ALL SIN. His resurrection is the victory over death and is the FIRST FRUIT of those whose HOPE is in the resurrection.

Show me anywhere in SCRIPTURE that teaches Purgatory. THERE IS NOT ANY.

Purgatory is a PAGAN rooted teaching that has perversely been co-opted into the church with its first observances in the early 12th century.

IT IS NOT AND WAS NEVER something that Messiah taught or any of the disciples taught.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Umh NO not even close.

When Yeshua said IT IS FINISHED there were no asterisks.

He is the ETERNAL Passover sacrifice and his death COVERED ALL SIN. His resurrection is the victory over death and is the FIRST FRUIT of those whose HOPE is in the resurrection.

Show me anywhere in SCRIPTURE that teaches Purgatory. THERE IS NOT ANY.

Purgatory is a PAGAN rooted teaching that has perversely been co-opted into the church with its first observances in the early 12th century.

IT IS NOT AND WAS NEVER something that Messiah taught or any of the disciples taught.

Purgatory didn’t become a doctrine until 1439AD

 

[BukiRob]

Purgatory didn’t become a doctrine until 1439AD

That may, in fact, be correct but there are historical roots that go back a little farther.

The point is that it is NOT a belief among the Jewish people prior to the coming of Messiah. Nor was a view held by the Sanhedrin at the time of Messiah or of any of the Apostolic age.

We know for certain that MUCH of Paul's ministry was dealing with and rooting out false doctrine as evidenced in several of his Epistles. Purgatory is NOT a biblical teaching... like not even a little bit.

 

[thecolorsblend]

.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That may, in fact, be correct but there are historical roots that go back a little farther.

The point is that it is NOT a belief among the Jewish people prior to the coming of Messiah. Nor was a view held by the Sanhedrin at the time of Messiah or of any of the Apostolic age.

We know for certain that MUCH of Paul's ministry was dealing with and rooting out false doctrine as evidenced in several of his Epistles. Purgatory is NOT a biblical teaching... like not even a little bit.

Yes I agree if it had been even a tradition of the church before 1054AD the Eastern Churches would also teach it. But they don’t.

 

[Ronald]

I don't question the deity of Jesus. Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father. He was the fullness of God in bodily form. That doesn't mean He was fully God.

John 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

"Who being in very nature God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped." Phil. 2:6
They did not grasp the concept then and some people like yourself don't grasp it now!
He claimed to be God, and the Pharisees thought it was blaspheme which fyekwd their passion to kill him.
He delivered a message that Mary and everyone could understand most of the time. It is like someone trying to explain quantum physics to a three old -- he won't grasp it. Even a little big shot wouldn't.
"For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible ... He is before all things and in Him all things hold together." Col. 1:16, 17 Other translations use "consist". That means every atom is held together in Him. Sounds like all mighty God to me.
Did He explain how He made the universe out of nothing? I don't think we would grasp that either. You don't understand how your own body functions or one single cell for that matter.
The Father referred to His Son as God.
"But about the Son He says, 'Your throne O God, will last for ever and ever ..." Heb. 1:8

 

[Ronald]

And He pays for them in Purgatory as well.

Judging by your post, what I'm not sure you're grasping about Purgatory is that the forgiveness remains God's, it remains a gift of grace, the sacrifice still comes from Our Lord, the only difference is the faithful doesn't have a pulse anymore.

Jesus said, if you believe in Me you will never die. We are spared from judgment if any kind. You pass this Purgatory off as is its not judgment, but a correctional institute with a psych ward. Do they have angels who specialize in helping you to shed the sins and prepare you for Heaven? How is a denial sin burned off? And then do mortal sins disqualify you? Burning off sins sounds kind of painful. Jesus took some painful stripes and nails and if course the crucifixion was the ultimate suffering. I would say that was enough. But maybe you think its not so bad to burn off sins. So what is it that actually burns, is it fire or 10,000 Hail Mary's? Or maybe its a kind of boot camp or Jenny Craig Spa where they trim off sins instead of pounds? There motto may be " no pain, no gain".
You aren't really sure are you? Are there any specifics about just this abstract place.
I find it difficult to grasp things that don't exist, abstract places in books that are not supported by the rest of scripture.
A requirement of being included in God's Word, is that scripture is tested against other scripture. The Bible is a book of unity, it doesn't contradict itself, it supports itself. So when we examine the place called Purgatory, we do not find it supported in any of the 66 books that we call the Bible. It is abstract, foreign and does not harmonize with the doctrine of Salvation. However you try to work it in, explain it, it doesn't fit. Jesus nor any of the Apostles ever spoke of it. The Prophets spoke of Sheol, which is Hades, but there concept of the afterlife was a bit blurry. They lived in the shadow of Christ. Christ came and clarified and fulfulled many things. Jews are still blinded to this day so they are clueless to the afterlife as well.
I know you will not accept this, it refutes what you've been taught. It's OK, just know this, it would be a hard sell to convince many Protestants, or any.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said, if you believe in Me you will never die. We are spared from judgment if any kind. You pass this Purgatory off as is its not judgment, but a correctional institute with a psych ward. Do they have angels who specialize in helping you to shed the sins and prepare you for Heaven? How is a denial sin burned off? And then do mortal sins disqualify you? Burning off sins sounds kind of painful. Jesus took some painful stripes and nails and if course the crucifixion was the ultimate suffering. I would say that was enough. But maybe you think its not so bad to burn off sins. So what is it that actually burns, is it fire or 10,000 Hail Mary's? Or maybe its a kind of boot camp or Jenny Craig Spa where they trim off sins instead of pounds? There motto may be " no pain, no gain".
You aren't really sure are you? Are there any specifics about just this abstract place.
I find it difficult to grasp things that don't exist, abstract places in books that are not supported by the rest of scripture.
A requirement of being included in God's Word, is that scripture is tested against other scripture. The Bible is a book of unity, it doesn't contradict itself, it supports itself. So when we examine the place called Purgatory, we do not find it supported in any of the 66 books that we call the Bible. It is abstract, foreign and does not harmonize with the doctrine of Salvation. However you try to work it in, explain it, it doesn't fit. Jesus nor any of the Apostles ever spoke of it. The Prophets spoke of Sheol, which is Hades, but there concept of the afterlife was a bit blurry. They lived in the shadow of Christ. Christ came and clarified and fulfulled many things. Jews are still blinded to this day so they are clueless to the afterlife as well.
I know you will not accept this, it refutes what you've been taught. It's OK, just know this, it would be a hard sell to convince many Protestants, or any.

The Roman Catholic Church believes that Jesus’ sacrifice only paid for mortal sins but venial sins must be purged in purgatory thru suffering before that person can enter heaven. Of course indulgences can be exchanged for forgiveness of those venial sins allowing that person to enter heaven without suffering. It works like this. When a person dies the Roman church tells that person’s family that their deceased loved one is suffering in purgatory and they can have that person released from purgatory if they pay tithes to the church. If the tithes are paid the priests will pray to Mary and she will have that person removed from purgatory so they can enter heaven. Apparently Mary has this ability because she asked Jesus to make wine out of water at the wedding in Cana and He did.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Jesus said, if you believe in Me you will never die. We are spared from judgment if any kind.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that I am attempting to persuade you (or anybody) on the truth of my Catholic faith.

Now seems like a good time to disabuse you of that.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like. My intent in this discussion has been to explain what I believe and why I believe it. "Debating" me on this isn't really a worthwhile endeavor as I'm not really interested in contests. If you reject Purgatory, that's okay. You're entitled to believe what you want. But at least now you know what how I view the matter.

Which is all I really needed to accomplish.

 

[Righttruth]

4Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”a Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6When Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy.

Mark is even more clear:
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” 63And the high priest tore his garments and said, “What further witnesses do we need?

To a Jewish Pharisee the use of I AM was to declare yourself as G-d, hence the statement by the High priest who accuses Yeshua of blasphemy

There is a difference between calling Jesus as the Son of God and God. Again, Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father.

 

[Righttruth]

I won’t argue with that. It’s true that He taught to only worship God but it was usually in contrast to worshiping idols. I don’t know of any scripture that directly addresses this situation.

Perhaps this may help:
John 5
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

 

[Righttruth]

I don't know - the fact is, though, that they weren't.

Luther wanted the books of James, Hebrews and Revelation to be removed because they went against the concept of 'faith only' based solely on Paul's

 

[Righttruth]

He didn't use the words "I am God"; if you need to see those to believe, they're not there.

But he forgave sins - and the Jews said "who can forgive sins but God alone?", Mark 2:7.
He used the name of God, I AM - and the Jews KNEW he was doing this because they picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy, John 8:58-59.
He said "I and the Father are one", John 10:30 - and they again picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy, John 10:31. When Jesus asked why, they said, "because you, a mere man, claim to be God", John 10:33.
He asked his Father to glorify him with the glory he had shared with him before the world began, John 17:5.
After his resurrection he accepted worship from them, Matthew 28:17, John 20:28.
After his resurrection he said that ALL authority in heaven and earth had been given to him, Matthew 28:18.

So people are making interpretations on their own against the revelation of Jesus! Of course, God had delegated certain authorities to Jesus as His Son. It doesn't mean He replaced God eventually. We go to God finally through Jesus.