Are Protestants dead?

[thecolorsblend]

Brother do you understand that the doctrine of purgatory was created by evil men in the church? The Roman church has admitted and apologized for the actions of these very same evil men. 1439AD at the council of Florence which took place during the selling of indulgences and during the inquisitions.

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: 'Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous.'"
-- Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160)

"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius."
-- Epitaph of Abercius (A.D. 190)

"That very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease... For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other... and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then... I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment... [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment."
-- The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 (A.D. 202).

"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]."
-- Tertullian, The Crown 3:3 (A.D. 211)

"A woman, after the death of her husband... prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice."
-- Monogamy 10:1–2 (A.D. 216)

All of those are (or contain) allusions to Purgatory. All of them originate before 1439. Were they all written by people who are evil?

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK. You can have the last word on that. I don't feel like debating it anymore. But here is one passage for you to ponder in the meantime.

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.​

Wow now that is the best evidence I’ve ever seen for purgatory. Thank you for sharing that. I’m not convinced of purgatory but it is something to consider when contemplating the idea. It does make me think about the possibility but the thing that worries me about it personally is suppose I did begin to believe in purgatory and that I must pay for my sins in the afterlife. Is it possible that God might look unfavorable on me for not fully relying on Jesus Christ as my one and only Savior and believing that He did not pay the full price for me? I would much rather fully believe in Jesus as my one and only Savior and that He did pay the price in full for my sins and be wrong. I highly doubt that God would look unfavorably on me for trusting in Christ and not believing in purgatory. In the end my choice must be the choice that honors God the most and I believe that is the choice I’ve made. God bless you and thanks for sharing that passage of scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus spoke which were recorded by His apostles who heard Him.

It sounds like you have some doubt that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writers to give an accurate testimony. The Holy Spirit is often hard for me to hear sometimes. Sometimes I wonder is this from the Holy Spirit or is this from my mind. I believe this is a different case than the authenticity of the scriptures tho. I believe that God wouldn’t allow the scriptures to be incorrect and have such a significant impact on humanity. If that were the case then how could we be held responsible for having incorrect beliefs based on incorrect evidence? Furthermore given the shear devotion of Luke and Paul to God and the authenticity of the scriptures I can’t believe that they would dare write something that Jesus said without being absolutely 100% certain that it was the truth. If there were any question of its authenticity they would surely omit it from their writings. They would not dare to put words in Jesus’ mouth that were not true because they undoubtedly believe in God and the consequences of their actions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Holy Spirit was sent specifically for this:

John 14:
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Holy Spirit was sent specifically for this:

John 14:
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

The word YOU in that passage is not you. Jesus was talking to the apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: 'Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous.'"
-- Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160)

"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius."
-- Epitaph of Abercius (A.D. 190)

"That very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease... For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other... and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then... I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment... [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment."
-- The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 (A.D. 202).

"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]."
-- Tertullian, The Crown 3:3 (A.D. 211)

"A woman, after the death of her husband... prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice."
-- Monogamy 10:1–2 (A.D. 216)

All of those are (or contain) allusions to Purgatory. All of them originate before 1439. Were they all written by people who are evil?

I have heard about these stories but honestly I can’t attest as to their validity. The Catholic Church was also aware of them and disregarded them for over 12 centuries. Apparently they also didn’t think that they were enough evidence to support a doctrine.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

It is YOU that has the burden of proof!

The ONLY inspired writing that occurred after Messiah left us is that of the Apostles AND NONE ELSE

And we Catholics agree with that. It was the Protestant Martin Luther who wanted to remove books like Revelation, and the Book of James.

Furthermore, we also have the Old Testament as insipired writing.

 

[Strong in Him]

Two Persons cannot be One God!

So you are.

Two persons can be one God - it is GOD we are talking about.
Is it possible for one man to be a father and a son? Or a father, a son and a brother?
Is it possible for you to have a body, a mind and a spirit?
Is it possible for H2O (water) to exist in 3 forms - liquid, ice and steam - and still be one substance?
Is it possible for a musical chord to have 3 separate notes and yet still be one unified sound?

Obviously those aren't perfect analogies, I'm just trying to show the concept of 3 in 1.
Scripture teaches that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, and that all are God.
If the Father isn't God, Jesus was lying because he always spoke of God his Father.
If Jesus isn't God, the Jews were mistaken when they crucified him for blasphemy, Thomas was wrong to call him "My Lord and my God" and when Jesus and the apostles said that he had existed from the foundations of the world, they were all wrong too. What's more, Jesus couldn't be our Saviour because he was only a man.
If the Spirit isn't God, then the OT is wrong to call him the Spirit of God and says that he was with the Father at the beginning of creation. What's more, it means that we do not have GOD living inside us - when Jesus and Paul talked about the Spirit of God living in us, they were both mistaken.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to remind us of His teaching.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples when he said that, "the Spirit will remind YOU of everything I have said", "the Spirit will take what is mine and make it known to YOU".
He said that, and taught the disciples personally after the resurrection, because he knew that they would write, or be involved in writing, the Gospels. Later, he met Saul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus and he was converted.

The Holy Spirit inspired the OT, Jesus' words and letters from Paul, Peter, John and James to be written down.

He did not indicate that writings will follow that go against His words. (John 14:26)

1. As I have said, he inspired these things to be written down for future generations. We only know what Jesus said because it is in the NT.
2. The NT does not contradict Jesus' words.

We need the Holy Spirit, who is God, to live in us, speak to us and so on - of course we do. Without the Spirit we cannot be born again and children of God.
But we do need more than JUST the Spirit. We need the book that he inspired to be written; the book that reveals God to us. Otherwise, anyone could say anything and claim that "it was the Holy Spirit who told me". If we had no point of reference, nothing that taught and explained our faith, we could believe, and be conned by, them.

The Moonies, for example, say that Jesus was supposed to get married while he was on earth, that he failed in that and that God sent a vision to a man called Mr Moon and told him that he was to do the work that Jesus had failed to do. If we didn't have the Bible - the OT which prophesies Jesus' coming, the Gospels and the epistles which expound his teaching - and had no idea who Jesus was and why he came; we might be willing to believe them.
You could say "God has told me/the Spirit has told me ...... and told me to tell you". How are supposed to believe you; how do we know that it was the Holy Spirit who said this to you and not your own thoughts/ideas, or that you are quoting something you have subconsciously remembered from a book?
How do YOU know, come to that?

 

[Strong in Him]

One in essence. It is not my claim. It is the claim of Jesus!
John 14
28 You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

When Jesus was on earth, he was a MAN as well as God. As a man he had most of the restrictions that we have.
He couldn't be in more than one place at once, for example - God the Father could, but he couldn't.
He sometimes knew what people were thinking; probably not always, as he asked questions like "what is your name?" or "what do you want me to do for you?" God the Father knew all things, but some things were hidden from Jesus - like when he said that the Son did not know the day of his return.
As a man, he got tired, thirsty, frustrated (but did not sin), sad, had a human body and felt pain. God the Father is Spirit and does not feel physical pain.

In that sense, and while he was on earth, his Father was greater than he was.
But Jesus also said, "I and the Father are one", and "if you have seem me, you have seen the Father". He also asked God the Father to glorify him, "with the glory that I had with you before the world began", John 17:5.

After his resurrection, Jesus would go back to his Father and no longer have the physical restrictions of a human body. Which is why Jesus can now be with his followers in different cities, in different countries, time zones etc. God the Father could always do this; Jesus, as a human being, couldn't.

 

[Tayla]

I was told by Catholics that Protestants dont actually partake of the real Lords supper. If this is true then doesnt that mean that protestants are dead, according to John 6:53?

This is another strange Catholic idea, as strange as saying that Protestants are actually Catholics but that they just don't realize it.

Protestants are fully capable of partaking of the Lord's Supper but, sadly, many don't, thinking it to be merely symbolic. Perhaps these are spiritually dead as Jesus states.

 

[Righttruth]

Why is that?

Two identities cannot be mixed into one casually.

 

[Righttruth]

Just to clarify, do you hold to the doctrine of the Trinity, as set forth in the Athanasian Creed?

I believe the Apostles Creed, not Athanasian or Nicene Creed.

 

[Righttruth]

Wait a sec. Standard Christology doesn't claim that the human is God. It claims exactly that he is the fullness of God in bodily form. Col 1:19

Remember that the standard definition of the Incarnation is that there is both the Logos, who is one person of God, and humanity, and they aren't the same, although they are united as a single "person." (I put quotation marks, because it's obvious the hypostasis is being used in a precise philosophical sense, and doesn't mean the same thing as ordinary English usage.) When you talk about "the fullness of God in human form," you're talking about the human nature, and you're absolutely right that the human nature isn't divine in nature. That would be "confusing the natures," which is heretical. The human was united to God, but retained its separate nature. (The technical term is that the Logos "assumed" human nature.)

Very relevant points. Thank you

 

[Righttruth]

It sounds like you have some doubt that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writers to give an accurate testimony. The Holy Spirit is often hard for me to hear sometimes. Sometimes I wonder is this from the Holy Spirit or is this from my mind. I believe this is a different case than the authenticity of the scriptures tho. I believe that God wouldn’t allow the scriptures to be incorrect and have such a significant impact on humanity. If that were the case then how could we be held responsible for having incorrect beliefs based on incorrect evidence? Furthermore given the shear devotion of Luke and Paul to God and the authenticity of the scriptures I can’t believe that they would dare write something that Jesus said without being absolutely 100% certain that it was the truth. If there were any question of its authenticity they would surely omit it from their writings. They would not dare to put words in Jesus’ mouth that were not true because they undoubtedly believe in God and the consequences of their actions.

How much of Jesus' words Paul has quoted? How much of His earthly ministry he knew? What was his gospel that he claimed?

 

[Righttruth]

So you are.


Scripture teaches that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, and that all are God.

Where does it say explicitly that they are all God? According to the Bible, we have God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. We cannot say God the Son and God the Spirit.

when Jesus and Paul talked about the Spirit of God living in us, they were both mistaken.

Are we Gods then because the Spirit is within us?

 

[W2L]

Protestants are fully capable of partaking of the Lord's Supper but, sadly, many don't, thinking it to be merely symbolic. Perhaps these are spiritually dead as Jesus states.

I wouldn't know, i have Gods Spirit inside, guiding me.

 

[Righttruth]

Jesus was speaking to his disciples when he said that, "the Spirit will remind YOU of everything I have said", "the Spirit will take what is mine and make it known to YOU".
He said that, and taught the disciples personally after the resurrection, because he knew that they would write, or be involved in writing, the Gospels. Later, he met Saul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus and he was converted.

The Holy Spirit inspired the OT, Jesus' words and letters from Paul, Peter, John and James to be written down.



1. As I have said, he inspired these things to be written down for future generations. We only know what Jesus said because it is in the NT.
2. The NT does not contradict Jesus' words.

We need the Holy Spirit, who is God, to live in us, speak to us and so on - of course we do. Without the Spirit we cannot be born again and children of God.
But we do need more than JUST the Spirit. We need the book that he inspired to be written; the book that reveals God to us. Otherwise, anyone could say anything and claim that "it was the Holy Spirit who told me". If we had no point of reference, nothing that taught and explained our faith, we could believe, and be conned by, them.

The Moonies, for example, say that Jesus was supposed to get married while he was on earth, that he failed in that and that God sent a vision to a man called Mr Moon and told him that he was to do the work that Jesus had failed to do. If we didn't have the Bible - the OT which prophesies Jesus' coming, the Gospels and the epistles which expound his teaching - and had no idea who Jesus was and why he came; we might be willing to believe them.
You could say "God has told me/the Spirit has told me ...... and told me to tell you". How are supposed to believe you; how do we know that it was the Holy Spirit who said this to you and not your own thoughts/ideas, or that you are quoting something you have subconsciously remembered from a book?
How do YOU know, come to that?

Why is the Catholic Bible is different from Protestants'? Why is that Martin Luther wanted the books of James, Hebrews and Revelation removed from the canon?

 

[Righttruth]

When Jesus was on earth, he was a MAN as well as God. As a man he had most of the restrictions that we have.
He couldn't be in more than one place at once, for example - God the Father could, but he couldn't.
He sometimes knew what people were thinking; probably not always, as he asked questions like "what is your name?" or "what do you want me to do for you?" God the Father knew all things, but some things were hidden from Jesus - like when he said that the Son did not know the day of his return.
As a man, he got tired, thirsty, frustrated (but did not sin), sad, had a human body and felt pain. God the Father is Spirit and does not feel physical pain.

In that sense, and while he was on earth, his Father was greater than he was.
But Jesus also said, "I and the Father are one", and "if you have seem me, you have seen the Father". He also asked God the Father to glorify him, "with the glory that I had with you before the world began", John 17:5.

After his resurrection, Jesus would go back to his Father and no longer have the physical restrictions of a human body. Which is why Jesus can now be with his followers in different cities, in different countries, time zones etc. God the Father could always do this; Jesus, as a human being, couldn't.

Where did Jesus claim that He was also God?

 

[Righttruth]

The word YOU in that passage is not you. Jesus was talking to the apostles.

OK. So you think all His words spoken to men of His time and apostles are not applicable to us now?