Are Protestants dead?

[Righttruth]

You're not saying there are two Gods?

Two Persons cannot be One God!

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK this is a lot of material and I don't feel like writing a long response.

For Col 1:22 you are clearly wrong. The text states that he has now reconciled by his death, and of course his death on the cross was a one time event in the past. But you are only presented holy and blameless "if indeeed you continue in the faith." That is a conditional phrase, which makes being presented holy and blameless contingent on future satisfaction of the condition. You are not presented holy and blameless until some future point after the condition has been satisfied.

The other verses you cite are also easily dealt with. Just because you are made holy today does not mean that you will remain holy tomorrow.

And your assertion that forgiveness requires that we forgo punishment (and the accompanying "spit in your face" analogy) is neither consistent with Scripture or common sense. You need only take a look at 2 Samuel 12 where God takes away David's sin for murdering Uriah, and after taking away his sin, God punishes David by taking away his son. Did David say "God, since you took away my sins, you can no longer punish me"? No, but this is essentially what you are saying.

And plenty of parents lovingly forgive their children for all sorts of bad things. That doesn't mean that when the kid plays hooky and skips school, he is not going to get grounded for two weeks merely because his parents love and forgive him.

There are consequences for sin, and Sacred Scripture does not state anywhere that Jesus died to spare you from all the consequences of your poor decisions. Our Lord suffered and died to save you from eternal damnation.

The rest of your arguments are simply Ad Hominem.

He (Jesus) has now reconciled who in His death? Who has been reconciled? Past tense. Who has been made right with God? Yes absolutely we must remain in our faith. What is faith? Faith is trusting in Jesus as our Savior. What else is faith if not trusting in Jesus as our Savior? What else must we have faith in?

The analogy I used about being spit on was to show an example of what forgiveness is. A person is not forgiven if they are still required to suffer to pay for their sin or offense. That would not be a true reconciliation.

Friend your usage of Samuel is a bad example of how we receive salvation. That was during the Old Covenant which was very different than the New Covenant. Salvation required obedience to the law and punishment for offenses against the law. It also required constant animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sin. We are no longer under the Mosaic law. We have evolved into a much more comprehensive law by Jesus’ 2 commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love each other as Jesus loves us. Since Jesus has already paid for our sins and we have been reconciled there is no need for purgatory. His one time sacrifice paid for all sins of humanity from creation until the second coming.

In your analogy about skipping school doesn’t quite fit the scenario. There would have to be a consequence of skipping school that is waived. For example the wages of sin is death. If the wages of skipping school is being grounded then there hasn’t been anyone who reconciled the student to the parents. If punishment is still necessary the student still is not considered reconciled until after that punishment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

500 hundred posts later...

Are Protestants dead?

No

That’s the most comprehensive answer I can give.

 

[Afra]

He (Jesus) has now reconciled who in His death? Who has been reconciled? Past tense. Who has been made right with God? Yes absolutely we must remain in our faith. What is faith? Faith is trusting in Jesus as our Savior. What else is faith if not trusting in Jesus as our Savior? What else must we have faith in?

The analogy I used about being spit on was to show an example of what forgiveness is. A person is not forgiven if they are still required to suffer to pay for their sin or offense. That would not be a true reconciliation.

Friend your usage of Samuel is a bad example of how we receive salvation. That was during the Old Covenant which was very different than the New Covenant. Salvation required obedience to the law and punishment for offenses against the law. It also required constant animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sin. We are no longer under the Mosaic law. We have evolved into a much more comprehensive law by Jesus’ 2 commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love each other as Jesus loves us. Since Jesus has already paid for our sins and we have been reconciled there is no need for purgatory. His one time sacrifice paid for all sins of humanity from creation until the second coming.

In your analogy about skipping school doesn’t quite fit the scenario. There would have to be a consequence of skipping school that is waived. For example the wages of sin is death. If the wages of skipping school is being grounded then there hasn’t been anyone who reconciled the student to the parents. If punishment is still necessary the student still is not considered reconciled until after that punishment.

OK. You can have the last word on that. I don't feel like debating it anymore. But here is one passage for you to ponder in the meantime.

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.​

 

[Righttruth]

Well that's just it; there is.

The Bible is the written, inspired word of God. In the OT, prophets proclaimed, "this is what the Lord says"; in the NT Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would live in all believers and show them the truth.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, Jesus is the truth, God's word is also truth. The Spirit inspired the Bible to be written - ALL of it - and it is the Spirit who interprets it to us.

A number of groups, known as cults, which are different from mainstream Christianity, either don't accept the Scriptures, accept them in part but have made subtle changes, (so that when they promote their doctrine they can say "it's in the Bible" and Joe Public probably won't know the difference), or they have a book which they consider as important as Scripture, if not more so.
Christians who don't accept that the Bible is true and our standard, will probably fall for any doctrine that people care to suggest.

The Holy Spirit does not bear witness to untruth.

Which version of the Bible is God's truth? Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to remind us of His teaching. He warned of false prophets. He did not indicate that writings will follow that go against His words. (John 14:26)

 

[W2L]

No

That’s the most comprehensive answer I can give.

Thank you. It will suffice.

 

[Righttruth]

Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE" - yet you claim he is inferior to the Father.

One in essence. It is not my claim. It is the claim of Jesus!
John 14
28 You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

 

[Afra]

Two Persons cannot be One God!

Why is that?

 

[Righttruth]

Okay, I didn't know, your profile indicated seeker of truth but not that you were a Christain.
My doubt came when you said Jesus wasn't fully God. Then I mentioned you can't come away from the book of John where Jesus deity and eq[fundamental to Christianity. That while on earth, He prayed to and was obedient to the Father, yet He claimed to be God.
He claims to be one with the Father,
He does all the work that the Father does,
He claims to be that great "I Am" in Ex.3:14, He is the Alpha and Omega, the source of life, the jugde of the dead,
the Father gave Him ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, etc.
Listen, you cannot have all authority unless you are omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
Col. 1:16, 17 says He is the Creator.
He is the exact radiance of the fullness of God. There it is, He is fully God.
Only God can forgive sins, be worshipped. He is our Savior.
Only God can take on the sins of the world - the sins of the entire world for all time - that requires Almighty God.
We our in Christ. His body is the Church and so we function like an organism.
We our in Him as the Father is in Him. We are to be Christ-like.
5All teachings and references and lets just say the entire Bible is about Jesus. If He wasn't fully God, the Bible would have been written differently, with much less focus on Him.

I don't question the deity of Jesus. Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father. He was the fullness of God in bodily form. That doesn't mean He was fully God.

John 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

 

[Righttruth]

Why is that?

We believe in One God the Father. Jesus is the Son of One God.

 

[Righttruth]

If you can’t believe the Bible how can you believe the words of Jesus? They were not written by Jesus.

Jesus spoke which were recorded by His apostles who heard Him.

 

[Afra]

We believe in One God the Father. Jesus is the Son of One God.

Thanks. But I do not think that answers the question. Regardless of your personal beliefs concerning the trinity, why is it that two persons cannot be one God? Two people can be one family, so I do not think your conclusion follows as a matter of logic.

 

[Righttruth]

Did the Holy Spirit tell you to disregard scriptures?

The Holy Spirit was sent specifically for this:

John 14:
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

 

[Afra]

I don't question the deity of Jesus. Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father. He was the fullness of God in bodily form. That doesn't mean He was fully God.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Are you suggesting the "ice, water, vapor" analogy typical of the modalists? Or are you suggesting something different?

 

[Righttruth]

Thanks. But I do not think that answers the question. Regardless of your personal beliefs concerning the trinity, why is it that two persons cannot be one God? Two people can be one family, so I do not think your conclusion follows as a matter of logic.

One person is different from a family. One Godhead, but Three Persons. Each has a different role, responsibility and authority.

 

[Righttruth]

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Are you suggesting the "ice, water, vapor" analogy typical of the modalists? Or are you suggesting something different?

One Godhead, but Three Persons. Each has a different role, responsibility and authority. The role and application of ice, water and vapor are different.

 

[Righttruth]

Why is that?

It is not the question of a split personality!

 

[Afra]

One Godhead, but Three Persons. Each has a different role, responsibility and authority. The role and application of ice, water and vapor are different.

Just to clarify, do you hold to the doctrine of the Trinity, as set forth in the Athanasian Creed?

 

[hedrick]

I don't question the deity of Jesus. Jesus never claimed Himself as God the Father. He was the fullness of God in bodily form. That doesn't mean He was fully God.

Wait a sec. Standard Christology doesn't claim that the human is God. It claims exactly that he is the fullness of God in bodily form. Col 1:19

Remember that the standard definition of the Incarnation is that there is both the Logos, who is one person of God, and humanity, and they aren't the same, although they are united as a single "person." (I put quotation marks, because it's obvious the hypostasis is being used in a precise philosophical sense, and doesn't mean the same thing as ordinary English usage.) When you talk about "the fullness of God in human form," you're talking about the human nature, and you're absolutely right that the human nature isn't divine in nature. That would be "confusing the natures," which is heretical. The human was united to God, but retained its separate nature. (The technical term is that the Logos "assumed" human nature.)

 

[thecolorsblend]

That's just it, Christ paid for ALL sins, past, present and future.

And He pays for them in Purgatory as well.

Judging by your post, what I'm not sure you're grasping about Purgatory is that the forgiveness remains God's, it remains a gift of grace, the sacrifice still comes from Our Lord, the only difference is the faithful doesn't have a pulse anymore.