Are Protestants dead?

[BukiRob]

Prove me wrong and I will renounce the Catholic faith.

It is YOU that has the burden of proof!

The ONLY inspired writing that occurred after Messiah left us is that of the Apostles AND NONE ELSE

 

[Eloy Craft]

This purging is the process of sanctification and it does take a lifetime, thugs life, not after death.

then You believe we must die in a state of perfection? That is purified?

 

[Strong in Him]

He claims to be one with the Father,
He does all the work that the Father does,
He claims to be that great "I Am" in Ex.3:14, He is the Alpha and Omega, the source of life, the jugde of the dead,
the Father gave Him ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, etc.
Listen, you cannot have all authority unless you are omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
Col. 1:16, 17 says He is the Creator.
He is the exact radiance of the fullness of God. There it is, He is fully God.
Only God can forgive sins, be worshipped. He is our Savior.
Only God can take on the sins of the world - the sins of the entire world for all time - that requires Almighty God.
We our in Christ. His body is the Church and so we function like an organism.
We our in Him as the Father is in Him. We are to be Christ-like.
5All teachings and references and lets just say the entire Bible is about Jesus. If He wasn't fully God, the Bible would have been written differently, with much less focus on Him.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Oh. So you don't deny excessive attention given to Baywatch?

???

Listen, I'm not telling what you believe or think.

Um, yes you did. You literally told me what I believe:

Again, you think Christ sacrifice wasn't sufficient, the penalty He paid wasn't in full ... that we still owe something.

I don't believe that. So when I told you not to tell me what I believe (A) I was right to say it and (B) I meant it.

I am stating that it stands to reason that if Christians, (who were cleansed by the blood of Christ because they believe and put their faith in Him), must go to Purgatory after death to burn off sins, it is implying that what Christ did was not enough. What does being saved mean to you?

Your lack of understanding of what Purgatory is quite manifest. Your characterization of Purgatory depends upon it being a redemptive modality apart from/in addition to the sacrificial work of Our Lord on the cross. If that was the Church's teaching on it, you would be entirely justified in your skepticism.

But that is not the Church's teaching on it so your skepticism is not justified.

But what you are saying is that books written outside of the Bible by Church fathers/saints also have authority equal or somewhat lesser than the Bible, as well as your priest, bishop, cardinal, and Pope. Am I correct?

No. You are not correct.

The Church's authority is derived from God and finds its expression in the Magisterium.

I have noticed that Protestants tend to view authority as a zero-sum game, where either God has all authority or else His authority is ignored in favor of "the traditions of men", whatever that means. Catholics view the matter is participatory. Authority was granted to the Church and the Church exercises said authority through the Magisterium.

Protestants seem to recognize that the apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit to compose the New Testament, which suggests they can believe the Holy Spirit can inspire men as individuals.

Protestants also seem to accept the ecumenical councils by which the Church recognized the New Testament canon, which suggests they can believe the Holy Spirit can inspire and guide Church councils into recognizing the proper New Testament canon.

The primary difference is that the Catholic Church believes she is guided by the Spirit and protected from teaching error to this very day. Protestants who otherwise seem capable of believing the above two conditions for some reason find this notion simply untenable. And I find that rather strange. The message seems to be that the Holy Spirit can guide and inspire individuals or even councils but a global Church is somehow impossible or undesirable or something.

It's a bit arbitrary to reject the Church's authority today when her authority exercised thousands of years ago is apparently easy for Protestants to accept.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Your comparing the scriptures I quoted which are extremely clear and precise to the scriptures that are claimed to be evidence of purgatory which are mostly parables and are undoubtedly not clearly teaching purgatory.

As I have said previously, the salient issue is that the Catholic Church believes those passages describe Purgatory. With respect, whether or not a non-Catholic understands Purgatory or agrees that such is what those passages describe is beside the point. The point is that Catholics do believe those passages relate to Purgatory.

Thanks brother it is always a pleasure to have a friendly debate without impolite remarks and insults.

Agreed.

It teaches that Jesus is not our one and only savior

It doesn't. Our Lord's work is how the souls in Purgatory wound up there. It's part of His redemptive process. I think you are seeing a division between Our Lord's perfect sacrifice and Purgatory where one should not be understood to exist. In truth, Purgatory is possible only as a byproduct of His sacrifice. It isn't a safety net or a second chance or whatever else.

His work gets souls into Purgatory. His purification is what gets them out. The only thing men contribute to the process is the venial sin which made Purgatory necessary in the first place. But the redemptive work being done at every step of the way comes from above.

 

[Albion]

His work gets souls into Purgatory.

He would then be sort of a slow motion Savior.

No, I dont think that squares with the Bible or with what Jesus said himself on the subject.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Colossians 1:22 does not prove your case at least for the reason that the text does not indicate the timing when we will be presented holy and blameless in God’s sight. Verse 23 certainly indicates that it is at some point in the future, hence the word “if” in the text.

Moreover, your conclusions do not logically follow. Our Lord suffered and died to save us from the punishment of hell, and nobody who enters purgatory will ever see the punishment of hell. Our Lord did not suffer and die to spare you from all punishment (in fact, Sacred Scripture specifically states that God disciplines those whom he loves). At the least, this is where you are in error.

Jail, for example, is another form of temporal punishment, which is different than the eternal punishment of hell. If Jesus died to spare Christians from all punishment (cleansing or otherwise), a Christian who murders could very well claim “Even though I killed someone, I should not have to spend any time in jail because Jesus died for my sins”. If we applied your logic we would have to conclude that a Christian who murders should not go to jail, because causing him to pay a temporal punishment for his sins is an affront to the finished work of Christ.

In Colossians 1:22 the words NOW RECONCILED is a present and past tense. This indicates that the reconciliation has already been established. Jesus did die to save us from hell by sacrificing Himself on the cross to pay for our sins. Here are some more examples.

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”

Colossians 1:22

“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 6:11

Notice this next verse Jesus not only made a way to Heaven. His sacrifice forgave our sins and we are reconciled.

“I am writing to you who are God’s children because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.”

1 John 2:12

Like I said before these are a clear indication that our reconciliation has already taken place. We are made right with God without ever having been to purgatory and even before death. If that were not so these scriptures would be incorrect. This is not a matter of interpretation because it is clearly written it is without question. Now when you look at the punishment for sin there is much that is not clearly stated. Exactly how and when we will be punished or even if we ever will be punished after we come to Christ is not clearly stated. If we still must be punished for our sin then that would indicate that we are not reconciled or made right with God. We would not be such until after our punishment. For example if someone spit in my face then apologized and I said it’s ok I forgive you. Would we be reconciled if I punched that person in the face for spitting on me afterhaving said I forgive you. No that would not be reconciliation because it was not made right until after I punched him. Now take a look at this next verse.

“And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.””
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:12‬

Also

“Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-18‬

So since our sins have been forgiven they are also forgotten. Again what interpretation is required to understand this? It is a clear and self explanatory statement. There is no parables or hidden meaning.

Now with all this being said and explained very clearly without need of interpretation compare these statements to the verses of scripture that are claimed to support purgatory. 1 Corinthians 3-10-15 requires an awful lot of speculation and assumption to reach the conclusion that Paul is speaking about purgatory because it is not even close to being a clear statement. In fact it doesn’t fit the context at all of what Paul is discussing in verses 1-10. Nowhere does Paul mention forgiveness of sin or purification in the entire chapter. Furthermore notice that whether the person’s works survive the test of fire or not that person is still saved. What Paul is discussing is our rewards we will receive according to our deeds. If our works survive the test we are saved and if they don’t survive the test we still survive. Now try to apply that to forgiveness of sin. If our sins do not survive the test of fire (are not forgiven) how can that person still be saved? I’m trying to show that the verses that are claimed to support purgatory are extremely vague and not even close to being enough evidence to support a doctrine. Not only that but purgatory is not taught by any other Christian church other than the Roman Church. The doctrine was formulated in 1439AD at the council of Florence during the exact same time the Roman church was selling indulgences and also during the inquisitions. Probably the darkest time in the history of the Roman church. The Roman church today agrees that the church was led by evil people during that time and has made apologies for the actions of the church during that time. These evil men are the same men who formulated the doctrine of purgatory. Please understand it is not my intention to attack the Roman church but to reveal the motives of the men who formulated the doctrine of purgatory. Thank God that the Roman Church has turned from this type of behavior and turned back to God but unfortunately they will not admit that they could ever formulate a false doctrine because it would shatter their integrity and their claim of infallibility.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When in doubt or when there is contradiction, it is better to rely on Jesus' words.

If you can’t believe the Bible how can you believe the words of Jesus? They were not written by Jesus.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have tried to seek the truth from past 40 years after accepting Jesus Christ with studies, fellowships and attendance in various types of churches. There is no end to learning. Only Holy Spirit helps in our understanding.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you to disregard scriptures?

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I have said previously, the salient issue is that the Catholic Church believes those passages describe Purgatory. With respect, whether or not a non-Catholic understands Purgatory or agrees that such is what those passages describe is beside the point. The point is that Catholics do believe those passages relate to Purgatory.

Agreed.

It doesn't. Our Lord's work is how the souls in Purgatory wound up there. It's part of His redemptive process. I think you are seeing a division between Our Lord's perfect sacrifice and Purgatory where one should not be understood to exist. In truth, Purgatory is possible only as a byproduct of His sacrifice. It isn't a safety net or a second chance or whatever else.

His work gets souls into Purgatory. His purification is what gets them out. The only thing men contribute to the process is the venial sin which made Purgatory necessary in the first place. But the redemptive work being done at every step of the way comes from above.

The doctrine of purgatory teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins which is not taught anywhere in the scriptures. His work is complete. Can you please explain these scriptures and how they do not contradict the doctrine of purgatory? Also can you show scriptures that indicate all our sins aren’t forgiven by Jesus’ sacrifice?

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”

Colossians 1:22

“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 6:11

“I am writing to you who are God’s children because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.”

1 John 2:12

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I have said previously, the salient issue is that the Catholic Church believes those passages describe Purgatory. With respect, whether or not a non-Catholic understands Purgatory or agrees that such is what those passages describe is beside the point. The point is that Catholics do believe those passages relate to Purgatory.

Agreed.

It doesn't. Our Lord's work is how the souls in Purgatory wound up there. It's part of His redemptive process. I think you are seeing a division between Our Lord's perfect sacrifice and Purgatory where one should not be understood to exist. In truth, Purgatory is possible only as a byproduct of His sacrifice. It isn't a safety net or a second chance or whatever else.

His work gets souls into Purgatory. His purification is what gets them out. The only thing men contribute to the process is the venial sin which made Purgatory necessary in the first place. But the redemptive work being done at every step of the way comes from above.

Brother do you understand that the doctrine of purgatory was created by evil men in the church? The Roman church has admitted and apologized for the actions of these very same evil men. 1439AD at the council of Florence which took place during the selling of indulgences and during the inquisitions.

 

[hedrick]

Protestants also seem to accept the ecumenical councils by which the Church recognized the New Testament canon, which suggests they can believe the Holy Spirit can inspire and guide Church councils into recognizing the proper New Testament canon.

This is not so clear. First, the canon developed over time. It wasn't the decision of any specific council. So I'm not quite sure which ecumenical councils you could be referring to.

Second, it's not even clear that Protestants think the canon is infallible. According to one of our Lutheran participants, Lutherans don't have an official canon. R C Sproul here claimed that the standard Protestant position is that the canon is not infallible: Ligonier Ministries.

You may wonder how there can be a fallible collection of infallible books. But I'd point out that there is no infallible collection of infallible Catholic doctrines. The best I've seen are collections of documents that appear to meet the criteria for infallibility. But the lists aren't claimed to be complete or inerrant.

I think the whole idea of going after infallibility is a mistake. From my point of view we have a variety of books, whose modes of inspiration are different. Each needs to be assessed on its own terms. They are witnesses to God's work with mankind, and not in themselves infallible. I hold sola scriptura in the sense that the NT documents are the only primary source material we have for Christ's mission and teaching and how the first generation of followers were impacted by and understood his work. The actual authority is God and Christ. Scripture is our best witness.

 

[Afra]

In Colossians 1:22 the words NOW RECONCILED is a present and past tense. This indicates that the reconciliation has already been established. Jesus did die to save us from hell by sacrificing Himself on the cross to pay for our sins. Here are some more examples.

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”

Colossians 1:22

“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 6:11

Notice this next verse Jesus not only made a way to Heaven. His sacrifice forgave our sins and we are reconciled.

“I am writing to you who are God’s children because your sins have been forgiven through Jesus.”

1 John 2:12

Like I said before these are a clear indication that our reconciliation has already taken place. We are made right with God without ever having been to purgatory and even before death. If that were not so these scriptures would be incorrect. This is not a matter of interpretation because it is clearly written it is without question. Now when you look at the punishment for sin there is much that is not clearly stated. Exactly how and when we will be punished or even if we ever will be punished after we come to Christ is not clearly stated. If we still must be punished for our sin then that would indicate that we are not reconciled or made right with God. We would not be such until after our punishment. For example if someone spit in my face then apologized and I said it’s ok I forgive you. Would we be reconciled if I punched that person in the face for spitting on me afterhaving said I forgive you. No that would not be reconciliation because it was not made right until after I punched him. Now take a look at this next verse.

“And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.””
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:12‬

Also

“Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-18‬

So since our sins have been forgiven they are also forgotten. Again what interpretation is required to understand this? It is a clear and self explanatory statement. There is no parables or hidden meaning.

Now with all this being said and explained very clearly without need of interpretation compare these statements to the verses of scripture that are claimed to support purgatory. 1 Corinthians 3-10-15 requires an awful lot of speculation and assumption to reach the conclusion that Paul is speaking about purgatory because it is not even close to being a clear statement. In fact it doesn’t fit the context at all of what Paul is discussing in verses 1-10. Nowhere does Paul mention forgiveness of sin or purification in the entire chapter. Furthermore notice that whether the person’s works survive the test of fire or not that person is still saved. What Paul is discussing is our rewards we will receive according to our deeds. If our works survive the test we are saved and if they don’t survive the test we still survive. Now try to apply that to forgiveness of sin. If our sins do not survive the test of fire (are not forgiven) how can that person still be saved? I’m trying to show that the verses that are claimed to support purgatory are extremely vague and not even close to being enough evidence to support a doctrine. Not only that but purgatory is not taught by any other Christian church other than the Roman Church. The doctrine was formulated in 1439AD at the council of Florence during the exact same time the Roman church was selling indulgences and also during the inquisitions. Probably the darkest time in the history of the Roman church. The Roman church today agrees that the church was led by evil people during that time and has made apologies for the actions of the church during that time. These evil men are the same men who formulated the doctrine of purgatory. Please understand it is not my intention to attack the Roman church but to reveal the motives of the men who formulated the doctrine of purgatory. Thank God that the Roman Church has turned from this type of behavior and turned back to God but unfortunately they will not admit that they could ever formulate a false doctrine because it would shatter their integrity and their claim of infallibility.

OK this is a lot of material and I don't feel like writing a long response.

For Col 1:22 you are clearly wrong. The text states that he has now reconciled by his death, and of course his death on the cross was a one time event in the past. But you are only presented holy and blameless "if indeeed you continue in the faith." That is a conditional phrase, which makes being presented holy and blameless contingent on future satisfaction of the condition. You are not presented holy and blameless until some future point after the condition has been satisfied.

The other verses you cite are also easily dealt with. Just because you are made holy today does not mean that you will remain holy tomorrow.

And your assertion that forgiveness requires that we forgo punishment (and the accompanying "spit in your face" analogy) is neither consistent with Scripture or common sense. You need only take a look at 2 Samuel 12 where God takes away David's sin for murdering Uriah, and after taking away his sin, God punishes David by taking away his son. Did David say "God, since you took away my sins, you can no longer punish me"? No, but this is essentially what you are saying.

And plenty of parents lovingly forgive their children for all sorts of bad things. That doesn't mean that when the kid plays hooky and skips school, he is not going to get grounded for two weeks merely because his parents love and forgive him.

There are consequences for sin, and Sacred Scripture does not state anywhere that Jesus died to spare you from all the consequences of your poor decisions. Our Lord suffered and died to save you from eternal damnation.

The rest of your arguments are simply Ad Hominem.

 

[Afra]

Brother do you understand that the doctrine of purgatory was created by evil men in the church? The Roman church has admitted and apologized for the actions of these very same evil men. 1439AD at the council of Florence which took place during the selling of indulgences and during the inquisitions.

No. The doctrine of purgatory goes back much further than those abuses. What you are suggesting is simply false, and I have already provided you information that proves that assertion false.

Besides, this is nothing more than an ad hominem attack as it is.

 

[Ronald]

then You believe we must die in a state of perfection? That is purified?

The problem is in your understanding of the flesh and spirit. We were dead spiritually. We are all born dead, disconnected to God. That spiritual compartment in you was empty, void. I made the comparison before to the Old Temple. The Most Holy place where they kept the Ark of the Covenant and where God swelled was a without sin. A veil covered it. Sin was not allowed inside. The High Priest needed to be without sin for one week to go in. Got the picture? When you believed in Jesus, the Holy Spirit began to dwell in your cleansed spiritual compartment where no sin exists. God will not dwell in the presence of sin. The freshly part of your being is where sin dwells, where God works to sanctify the rest of you, transforming you into the likeness of Christ. The spirit wars against the flesh - ever here of that? We have a dual nation - dies that sound familiar. We need to suffer through this life, but sin already has been defeated. When you die , your spirit is separated from you flesh. You have already past from death into life - you should know this, it's a done deal. This tent is temporal, but our spirit eternal.
How could you be in Christ with sin? The body of Christ is pure, spiritual.

 

[thecolorsblend]

This is not so clear. First, the canon developed over time. It wasn't the decision of any specific council. So I'm not quite sure which ecumenical councils you could be referring to.

Second, it's not even clear that Protestants think the canon is infallible. According to one of our Lutheran participants, Lutherans don't have an official canon. R C Sproul here claimed that the standard Protestant position is that the canon is not infallible: Ligonier Ministries.

You may wonder how there can be a fallible collection of infallible books. But I'd point out that there is no infallible collection of infallible Catholic doctrines. The best I've seen are collections of documents that appear to meet the criteria for infallibility. But the lists aren't claimed to be complete or inerrant.

I think the whole idea of going after infallibility is a mistake. From my point of view we have a variety of books, whose modes of inspiration are different. Each needs to be assessed on its own terms. They are witnesses to God's work with mankind, and not in themselves infallible. I hold sola scriptura in the sense that the NT documents are the only primary source material we have for Christ's mission and teaching and how the first generation of followers were impacted by and understood his work. The actual authority is God and Christ. Scripture is our best witness.

Fair points, all.

Your remark about a fallible collection of infallible books is particularly poignant. I do tend to favor the term “inspired” though as that is unique to God whereas “infallible” or “inerrant” are more flexible.

Good post though.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The problem is in your understanding of the flesh and spirit. We were dead spiritually. We are all born dead, disconnected to God. That spiritual compartment in you was empty, void. I made the comparison before to the Old Temple. The Most Holy place where they kept the Ark of the Covenant and where God swelled was a without sin. A veil covered it. Sin was not allowed inside. The High Priest needed to be without sin for one week to go in. Got the picture? When you believed in Jesus, the Holy Spirit began to dwell in your cleansed spiritual compartment where no sin exists. God will not dwell in the presence of sin. The freshly part of your being is where sin dwells, where God works to sanctify the rest of you, transforming you into the likeness of Christ. The spirit wars against the flesh - ever here of that? We have a dual nation - dies that sound familiar. We need to suffer through this life, but sin already has been defeated. When you die , your spirit is separated from you flesh. You have already past from death into life - you should know this, it's a done deal. This tent is temporal, but our spirit eternal.
How could you be in Christ with sin? The body of Christ is pure, spiritual.

Your entire explanation is a denial of your previous statement.

This purging is the process of sanctification and it does take a lifetime,

You said it was a process that ends at death.That we are purified before we die.
How do you reconcile that with your explanation in this post? .

 

[W2L]

500 hundred posts later...

Are Protestants dead?

 

[Ronald]

I don't believe that. So when I told you not to tell me what I believe (A) I was right to say it and (B) I meant it.

I was speaking in general terms. You believe like Catholics believe and now you will proceed to tell me ...

Your lack of understanding of what Purgatory is quite manifest. Your characterization of Purgatory depends upon it being a redemptive modality apart from/in addition to the sacrificial work of Our Lord on the cross. If that was the Church's teaching on it, you would be entirely justified in your skepticism.

But that is not the Church's teaching on it so your skepticism is not justified.

If it is not an addition to, a payment for, sins that already have been paid for, than what is it? That's just it, Christ paid for ALL sins, past, present and future. God lives outside of time. You have been already forgiven and SAVED.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith ..." John 20:29
"... and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works ..." Eph. 2:8, 9
PAID IN FULL AS WE SAY.
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God ... For the temple of God is holy ..." 1 Cor.3:16, 17 > Your spirit has been cleansed, otherwise God would not dwell in you.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Sprit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom,. 8:1, 2
So I do not suggest what you believe, I'll ask: Well, do you believe you are free or not?
Sin dwells in the members of our flesh. "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you ..." Rom. 8:9
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life..." Rom. 8:10
"just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blame before Him in love," Eph. 1:4
We are the elect, chosen, predestined, called, justified and will be glorified.
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son ... He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Rom. 8:29, 30
"... Be faithful until death and I will crown you with life." Rev.2:10
He did the work, He paid the price. It is what He did that enables you to be presented holy and blameless.
"yet He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the faith ..." Col. 1:22, 23

The Church's authority is derived from God and finds its expression in the Magisterium.

I have noticed that Protestants tend to view authority as a zero-sum game, where either God has all authority or else His authority is ignored in favor of "the traditions of men", whatever that means. Catholics view the matter is participatory. Authority was granted to the Church and the Church exercises said authority through the Magisterium.

Protestants seem to recognize that the apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit to compose the New Testament, which suggests they can believe the Holy Spirit can inspire men as individuals.

Protestants also seem to accept the ecumenical councils by which the Church recognized the New Testament canon, which suggests they can believe the Holy Spirit can inspire and guide Church councils into recognizing the proper New Testament canon.

The primary difference is that the Catholic Church believes she is guided by the Spirit and protected from teaching error to this very day. Protestants who otherwise seem capable of believing the above two conditions for some reason find this notion simply untenable. And I find that rather strange. The message seems to be that the Holy Spirit can guide and inspire individuals or even councils but a global Church is somehow impossible or undesirable or something.

It's a bit arbitrary to reject the Church's authority today when her authority exercised thousands of years ago is apparently easy for Protestants to accept.

Well, the Holy Spirit guides us all. He guides the Catholic Church, He guides the Protestant churches and all those who put their faith in Jesus. There is unity and diversity. But in a sinful world, humans make errors and we have seen their errors haven't we - on both sides. The Catholic Church has erred in the past, otherwise the Reformation would not of happened, which was also guided by God to correct errors. Selling salvation, indulgences, atrocities and wars in the name of Christ, child molestation going on today ... come on, no church is perfect, no council, no pastor, no priest and no Pope is either. I have respect for the Catholic Church in that they carried the Word throughout centuries and spread the gospel, love, good will through missions, orphanages, hospitals, all good works prepared by God to do. Protestants have done the same. You can't tell me that Billy Graham wasn't a godly man. There have been many - otherwise how could we amount to over a billion in a shorter period of time.
We are all Christians and our numbers are 2.42 billion. God called each one of those people, in different countries, languages, through a vast array of circumstances in which He orchestrated uniquely. He uses whatever people and churches are available for that person. He may draw him to a Catholic Church because there are five in the town or the only missionary around is a Catholic. In another instance, He uses a Lutheran or a Baptist. Don't put God in your neat little Catholic box, He is much bigger than that.
Let me inform you, God factors in all our blunders and errors to do His work. His plan is perfect and so allows for evil for a purpose. We learn from our mistakes that we all have.
But always remember: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Rom. 8:28

 

[Ronald]

Your entire explanation is a denial of your previous statement.

This purging is the process of sanctification and it does take a lifetime,

You said it was a process that ends at death.That we are purified before we die.
How do you reconcile that with your explanation in this post? .

Your spirit is instantly cleansed. I said that is your Most Holy Place where God dwells. The fleshly part of you is sanctified over your lifetime in order to live in a sinful world. But we have this dual nature that causes conflict within us. The spirit wars against the flesh. Please read the scriptures I wrote addressing David Hasselhoff.