Are Protestants dead?

[BNR32FAN]

The ordinance of the "last supper' given by Jesus the Christ:

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:24-25
and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

John 6 is primarily a metaphor, not to be read, applied literally.

In the bread of life discourse Jesus was deliberately being abstruse to weed out the people who didn’t believe. That’s why the more they argued and complained the more he pushed the statement you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. The idea was to explain it in such a way that those who didn’t believe would reject it and leave and only those who believed in Him would remain. And that’s exactly what happened.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Its sad that Catholics must go to purgatory. Protestants dont go there.

I pray I make it to purgatory. Knowing and acknowledging the fact that almost no one dies in the purity required to see God. That is evident in Scriptures and our lives on earth. No way to accredit imagination as it's source.

 

[BNR32FAN]

At this point I would like to take a step back and say God bless all of you who love and honor God. Even though we may not agree on many doctrines and teachings I want you to know that I love and care about each and every one of you. If I have been in any way impolite or disrespectful to anyone I sincerely apologize it was not my intention. I only wish to help others understand the Word of God just like you are working towards the same goal. I think it is important in the end that we still seek unity as Christians no matter what our differences in beliefs. We all seek to honor God and we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you all.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I guess your reality is based on 73 books.

Not really. As I and others have mentioned a few times in this discussion, sacred scripture, as important as it is, isn’t our sole authority.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Again, you think Christ sacrifice wasn't sufficient, the penalty He paid wasn't in full ... that we still owe something.

With respect, do not presume to tell me what I do and don’t believe.

You'll won't have to pay for that neo-Gnostic insult or marching for global warming or voting for Hillary.

I stand by the neo-gnostic comment. The Hillary thing you mention is puzzling though.

 

[Afra]

Been there done that friend.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

According to the catechism the sins that are forgiven in the world to come must be purified by suffering in purgatory because they are not forgiven by Jesus’ sacrifice otherwise there would be no additional payment necessary. This idea contradicts Colossians 1:22. Holy and blameless without a single fault.

Colossians 1:22 does not prove your case at least for the reason that the text does not indicate the timing when we will be presented holy and blameless in God’s sight. Verse 23 certainly indicates that it is at some point in the future, hence the word “if” in the text.

Moreover, your conclusions do not logically follow. Our Lord suffered and died to save us from the punishment of hell, and nobody who enters purgatory will ever see the punishment of hell. Our Lord did not suffer and die to spare you from all punishment (in fact, Sacred Scripture specifically states that God disciplines those whom he loves). At the least, this is where you are in error.

Jail, for example, is another form of temporal punishment, which is different than the eternal punishment of hell. If Jesus died to spare Christians from all punishment (cleansing or otherwise), a Christian who murders could very well claim “Even though I killed someone, I should not have to spend any time in jail because Jesus died for my sins”. If we applied your logic we would have to conclude that a Christian who murders should not go to jail, because causing him to pay a temporal punishment for his sins is an affront to the finished work of Christ.

 

[Ronald]

It's a gift yes. Saved by Grace yup. Yes Jesus did His work on the cross. Yet He tells us to pick up ours and follow Him. You think He means to do that to be be cleansed or to be pure? See, a heart that is inclined to sin can't be pure. Are you claiming a pure heart because that is necessary to be able to see God.
Matt. 5
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


The ALL He asked us to do part of this is very general very vague and a lot is missing for it to really mean all.. That happens when the Scripture quoted is adapted to a narrower meaning in order to exclude the broader meaning that harmonizes with ALL the Scriptures. For example you keep defining what cleansed is but you exclude Scripture that conflicts with what you want 'clean' top mean. Once clean always clean isn't what Jesus taught.

John 15:3
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

You are clean but not purged. Your combining of the two words seems to be an attempt to deny the idea that the word purge is something more than cleansed. It means to be purified. If it weren't the following scripture would apply to it too. But to be purified means removal of sin that is not removed when cleansed. Scriptures attest to the fact that sin remains after cleansing.

John 15:6

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus teaches that after one is clean they can still be cast off and burned.



It's apparent to me that you don't understand what I believe and cling to preconceived ideas of what I believe no matter how much scripture I post that ends up ignored. For instance the scripture I posted above. Tell me how cleansed means once saved always saved but include that scripture.

You are preaching to the choir here. But tell me, how is it that my sins are nailed to His cross? If you just post scriptures that doesn't work. Like you said we have two different theologies and that is the obstacle.
No I'm not confused about continuing to sin in life. You want to deny that it's possible to choose death over life even after you believe and have been clean. Yes there is a sin unto death

1 John 5

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Tell me why does he qualify unrighteousness with the word ALL? Why doesn't he just say unrighteousness?

You're assumption about what I was taught is an ad hominem statement. A logical fallacy. An appeal to the authority of group thought.
What is the difference between your spirit and your soul? Is it you? and when it separates from you what happens to your soul? To the current you that can still sin? Do you feel the you that cannot sin and what does it feel like if you can ?

Christ has given the world salvation. I am being saved. My salvation is not yet complete. But thank you .

Of course we need to take up our cross, die to sin daily, follow and abide in Him.
This purging of sin is the sin that dwells in the members of our flesh, the "sarx". Our old ways we return to sometimes so, yes we still sin. This purging is the process of sanctification and it does take a lifetime, THIS PHYSICAL LIFETIME, BUT THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO BE DONE AFTER DEATH. The abiding, following is what we willingly do. We must, while living in a sinful world. We need to be salt and light, a reflection, doing good works, helping, loving others. Christ wants us to live life in the FULL and so obedience to Him is essential for experiencing the joy of the Lord in every aspect of our lives.
We must mortify sin, the Holy Spirit guides us along the way, teaching us and at times convicting us. We get chastised and we do feel this when we are guilty.
We keep our focus on Christ and things above. But we are in Christ, SECURE, SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Btw, you cannot make yourself holy, God does that work and He will finish that work. When you physically die, your spirit, pure as snow, will go the the Lord as did Stephen in his last dying breath, " receive my spirit!" Paul said he would rather go and be with the Lord, but for our sake he remained. " To be absent the body (that is when we die) is to be present with the Lord." [paraphrased]
At the resurrection, your dead body will be translatesld into a new body, unless He comes and translates you when you are alive. This is what many of us believe. Its called the Rapture ( another word for the resurrection)1 Cor. 15:52-54, 1 Thes. 4:16, 17

 

[Ronald]

With respect, do not presume to tell me what I do and don’t believe.

I stand by the neo-gnostic comment. The Hillary thing you mention is puzzling though.

Oh. So you don't deny excessive attention given to Baywatch?
Listen, I'm not telling what you believe or think. I am stating that it stands to reason that if Christians, (who were cleansed by the blood of Christ because they believe and put their faith in Him), must go to Purgatory after death to burn off sins, it is implying that what Christ did was not enough. What does being saved mean to you? Saved from judgment, destruction, punishment of any kind. Christ paid the price for your salvation in FULL.
But go your way with that.

 

[Ronald]

Not really. As I and others have mentioned a few times in this discussion, sacred scripture, as important as it is, isn’t our sole authority.

Personally, God dwells in your temple and guides you. Given that each individual Christian is uniquely different, having a different experiences and circumstances in life, the Holy Spirit guides you, teaches you, directs you to do works that He has prepared and so yes, those specific details about each individual are not in scripture nor can they be written.
But what you are saying is that books written outside of the Bible by Church fathers/saints also have authority equal or somewhat lesser than the Bible, as well as your priest, bishop, cardinal, and Pope. Am I correct?

 

[Righttruth]

Of course he's the Son of God, he's still divine though.

And I find it rather strange that a Christian should ask, "why Scripture?"
What did you expect me to quote from; the book of Mormon?

Nothing wrong in considering all information as long as it is going to be filtered by the leading of the Holy Spirit

 

[Ronald]

I have done to the best of my ability without any prejudices.

I take it you are a seeker of truth, not yet a Christian?
Scripture is spiritually discerned, yet we still misinterpret it. If you are being drawn by God to His Word, and truly are seeking Him, He will reveal Himself to you. Humility, praying and a good church for teaching is essential in this process. Faith comes by the WORD. You need to ask for guidance and understanding in preparation of your Bible studies. The book of John is a perfect book to start with. It teaches us about the deity if Jesus. But you can't just approach the scriptures without first asking God for help. We must come to Him like a child, without preconceived notions, willingly opening your heart to God. It also helps for other Christians to pray for you and encourage you, invite you to their church, etc. God will send you people and circumstances, He orchestrates them, as He draws you to Himself. So, you alone all by yourself cannot jumpstart this process. It is God who calls you, justifies you, sanctifies you, teaches you, guides. So, pray, which us talking to God, He knows you and your needs.

 

[Righttruth]

In the beginning the Word was with God and also in the beginning the Word was God. It’s a past tense sentence. You wouldn’t say in the beginning the Word is God. That would be incorrect grammar.

There is no question of past, present and future tense application in understanding God.

 

[Righttruth]

So you do believe Luke and 1 Corinthians weren’t inspired writings then. Because that’s what your saying. Unless you believe that inspired writings can be incorrect. If that’s the case then with God made a mistake or Luke and Paul weren’t inspired by the Holy Spirit when they composed their writings. Oh and by the way. Nobody substantiated the bread of life discourse. Only John mentions it. Is that also not inspired?

When in doubt or when there is contradiction, it is better to rely on Jesus' words.

 

[Righttruth]

So you do believe that Jesus is God?

God the Father is superior to the Son of God.

 

[Righttruth]

So your saying Luke and 1 Corinthians aren’t inspired writings?

They were inspired, but had human limitations

 

[Righttruth]

I take it you are a seeker of truth, not yet a Christian?
Scripture is spiritually discerned, yet we still misinterpret it. If you are being drawn by God to His Word, and truly are seeking Him, He will reveal Himself to you. Humility, praying and a good church for teaching is essential in this process. Faith comes by the WORD. You need to ask for guidance and understanding in preparation of your Bible studies. The book of John is a perfect book to start with. It teaches us about the deity if Jesus. But you can't just approach the scriptures without first asking God for help. We must come to Him like a child, without preconceived notions, willingly opening your heart to God. It also helps for other Christians to pray for you and encourage you, invite you to their church, etc. God will send you people and circumstances, He orchestrates them, as He draws you to Himself. So, you alone all by yourself cannot jumpstart this process. It is God who calls you, justifies you, sanctifies you, teaches you, guides. So, pray, which us talking to God, He knows you and your needs.

I have tried to seek the truth from past 40 years after accepting Jesus Christ with studies, fellowships and attendance in various types of churches. There is no end to learning. Only Holy Spirit helps in our understanding.

 

[Strong in Him]

God the Father is superior to the Son of God.

You're not saying there are two Gods?

 

[Strong in Him]

Nothing wrong in considering all information as long as it is going to be filtered by the leading of the Holy Spirit

Well that's just it; there is.

The Bible is the written, inspired word of God. In the OT, prophets proclaimed, "this is what the Lord says"; in the NT Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would live in all believers and show them the truth.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, Jesus is the truth, God's word is also truth. The Spirit inspired the Bible to be written - ALL of it - and it is the Spirit who interprets it to us.

A number of groups, known as cults, which are different from mainstream Christianity, either don't accept the Scriptures, accept them in part but have made subtle changes, (so that when they promote their doctrine they can say "it's in the Bible" and Joe Public probably won't know the difference), or they have a book which they consider as important as Scripture, if not more so.
Christians who don't accept that the Bible is true and our standard, will probably fall for any doctrine that people care to suggest.

The Holy Spirit does not bear witness to untruth.

 

[Strong in Him]

When in doubt or when there is contradiction, it is better to rely on Jesus' words.

Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE" - yet you claim he is inferior to the Father.

 

[Ronald]

I have tried to seek the truth from past 40 years after accepting Jesus Christ with studies, fellowships and attendance in various types of churches. There is no end to learning. Only Holy Spirit helps in our understanding.

Okay, I didn't know, your profile indicated seeker of truth but not that you were a Christain.
My doubt came when you said Jesus wasn't fully God. Then I mentioned you can't come away from the book of John where Jesus deity and eq[fundamental to Christianity. That while on earth, He prayed to and was obedient to the Father, yet He claimed to be God.
He claims to be one with the Father,
He does all the work that the Father does,
He claims to be that great "I Am" in Ex.3:14, He is the Alpha and Omega, the source of life, the jugde of the dead,
the Father gave Him ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, etc.
Listen, you cannot have all authority unless you are omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
Col. 1:16, 17 says He is the Creator.
He is the exact radiance of the fullness of God. There it is, He is fully God.
Only God can forgive sins, be worshipped. He is our Savior.
Only God can take on the sins of the world - the sins of the entire world for all time - that requires Almighty God.
We our in Christ. His body is the Church and so we function like an organism.
We our in Him as the Father is in Him. We are to be Christ-like.
5All teachings and references and lets just say the entire Bible is about Jesus. If He wasn't fully God, the Bible would have been written differently, with much less focus on Him.