Are Protestants dead?

[BNR32FAN]

That seems like an ad hominim statement. I mean without substantiating the claim
that the doctine is developing for nefarious reasons?

I’m sorry is that a question or a statement? If it was a question I would have to say it appears so. We also should take into consideration that this was probably the darkest time in history for the Roman church. I really hate to bring these things up but I think they are important to consider when discussing the doctrine of purgatory because the actions of the church during that time are directly related to its guidance or lack of. The inquisitions were also taking place during the time that the doctrine of purgatory was formulated. The church was arresting, imprisoning, torturing, and executing nonbelievers forcing them to convert to Catholicism. Jesus warned us of false prophets who are vicious wolves disguised as sheep. He said you can identify them by their actions. I will say however that I’m very glad that we don’t see this type of behavior in the RCC today. I am not saying that the RCC is a false religion or in any way attempting to attack the Roman church. It’s so hard to discuss these topics without being offensive and I’m honestly trying my best to avoid being offensive or impolite.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Catholics believe in a faith plus works salvation.

Not really.

We are sanctified, purged of sin if you will in this life as we grow, we die to ourselves and our ways.

"Purged"? Interesting word choice there.

One purpose of Purgatory is to purify the faithful of any lingering attachment to sin they may still have. We are to take up our cross and follow Him daily. But the fact is that some people will do that better than others. For those who are genuinely Heaven-bound but still sin-attached, Purgatory purifies them of their sin.

This is not to be understood as a "second chance". Someone either goes to Heaven or they go to Hell. But if someone is bound for Heaven while still needing purification, the purpose of Purgatory is to purify them.

This is different then how you were taught I know.

I find the tone of this post and others of yours to be tonally inappropriate. It is not for you to decide what others have and have not been taught, I don't think.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That seems like an ad hominim statement. I mean without substantiating the claim
that the doctine is developing for nefarious reasons?

Not really.

"Purged"? Interesting word choice there.

One purpose of Purgatory is to purify the faithful of any lingering attachment to sin they may still have. We are to take up our cross and follow Him daily. But the fact is that some people will do that better than others. For those who are genuinely Heaven-bound but still sin-attached, Purgatory purifies them of their sin.

This is not to be understood as a "second chance". Someone either goes to Heaven or they go to Hell. But if someone is bound for Heaven while still needing purification, the purpose of Purgatory is to purify them.

I find the tone of this post and others of yours to be tonally inappropriate. It is not for you to decide what others have and have not been taught, I don't think.

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”

Colossians 1:22


“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 6:11


“And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”

Romans 8:10

Notice these are written on both the past and present tense indicating that this has already taken place. I’m sure Paul was not writing to dead people who had already gone through purgatory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not really.

"Purged"? Interesting word choice there.

One purpose of Purgatory is to purify the faithful of any lingering attachment to sin they may still have. We are to take up our cross and follow Him daily. But the fact is that some people will do that better than others. For those who are genuinely Heaven-bound but still sin-attached, Purgatory purifies them of their sin.

This is not to be understood as a "second chance". Someone either goes to Heaven or they go to Hell. But if someone is bound for Heaven while still needing purification, the purpose of Purgatory is to purify them.

I find the tone of this post and others of yours to be tonally inappropriate. It is not for you to decide what others have and have not been taught, I don't think.

When you examine the scriptures that are said to be evidence of purgatory there is no way to conclude the existence of purgatory without making HUGE assumptions that are not biblically supported. For example 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. If you read verses 1-10 you can see that Paul is not talking about forgiveness or purification of sin he is talking about how we are rewarded according to our deeds or good works. Verses 10-15 are a parable and a parable is used to support the topic that is currently being discussed. You wouldn’t discuss a particular topic then give a parable about a completely different topic. That would only confuse the person your trying to teach. Another example is Matthew 12:33

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬

The Roman church says that because Jesus said you will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come that is an indication that there is forgiveness in the world to come. But that is not what Jesus said that is an assumption. In fact Jesus said the exact opposite. He said you won’t be forgiven in the world to come. Nowhere in the Bible does it say there will be forgiveness in the world to come. Purgatory is based on huge assumptions and scriptures taken out of context.

 

[thecolorsblend]

“Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.”

Colossians 1:22


“Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

1 Corinthians 6:11


“And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.”

Romans 8:10

Notice these are written on both the past and present tense indicating that this has already taken place. I’m sure Paul was not writing to dead people who had already gone through purgatory.

It isn't a fixed moment. I have been saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

Moreover, none of those passages necessarily address the actual, literal purification when this mortal must put on immortality, which must take place. 1 Corinthians 3, for example, speaks of a purification. Now, whether or not you interpret that 1 Corinthians 3 as a description of the form, function and purpose of Purgatory is completely irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that's how Catholics interpret that passage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It isn't a fixed moment. I have been saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

Moreover, none of those passages necessarily address the actual, literal purification when this mortal must put on immortality, which must take place. 1 Corinthians 3, for example, speaks of a purification. Now, whether or not you interpret that 1 Corinthians 3 as a description of the form, function and purpose of Purgatory is completely irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that's how Catholics interpret that passage.

I agree brother that we must stay in our faith to be saved but the words holy and blameless without a single fault is pretty compelling evidence. Purgatory is about forgiveness of sin in the afterlife which teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice is insufficient which forgive me for saying so but a huge blasphemy. Jesus paid for all our sins. Not just some of them.

 

[thecolorsblend]

When you examine the scriptures that are said to be evidence of purgatory there is no way to conclude the existence of purgatory without making HUGE assumptions that are not biblically supported.

That is your opinion. It is not ours.

For example 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. If you read verses 1-10 you can see that Paul is not talking about forgiveness or purification of sin he is talking about how we are rewarded according to our deeds or good works.

Purgatory does not achieve only one purpose. But since we're on the subject of 1 Cor 3, that chapter does not mean nothing. Catholics believe it is a brief description of Purgatory. A lot of Protestants will reject that without explaining (A) what it does mean and (B) how what they believe it means is somehow different from the form and effects of Purgatory.

At this point, I'm starting to wonder if the only thing they actually object to is the name "Purgatory".

The Roman church says that because Jesus said you will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come that is an indication that there is forgiveness in the world to come. But that is not what Jesus said that is an assumption.

It's an interpretation.

In fact Jesus said the exact opposite. He said you won’t be forgiven in the world to come.

He was speaking of one particular sin which wouldn't be forgiven. The implication is that other sins might be forgiven in the world to come. The Catholic formulation of someone with a saving faith in Our Lord who dies before being forgiven for venial sins harmonizes with 1 Corinthians 3 and Our Lord's implication that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come.

Nowhere in the Bible

That is not a burden for us. We're not bound only to things recorded in sacred scripture. Obviously others can abide by whatever they see fit. But our standards need not be the same as the standards of others.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I agree brother that we must stay in our faith to be saved but the words holy and blameless without a single fault is pretty compelling evidence.

No it isn't. The passages which you have cited are lovely, comforting and aspirational but they're not necessarily proof-texts by themselves and I don't think they should be treated that way, especially when your interpretation of them raises challenges with other parts of sacred scripture.

Purgatory is about forgiveness of sin in the afterlife

Catholics believe God's grace is capable of that. Again, you don't have to agree. But that is what we think.

which teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice is insufficient

I'm afraid I must disagree. If anything, the sheer reality of Purgatory testifies that Our Lord's sacrifice is far more comprehensive than some Protestants might realize. His sacrifice is so perfect that it can even forgive venial sins after the faithful Christian has died.

People can say what they will about the Catholic Church's Christology but I sincerely don't see how anybody can claim that it is reductive.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is your opinion. It is not ours.

Purgatory does not achieve only one purpose. But since we're on the subject of 1 Cor 3, that chapter does not mean nothing. Catholics believe it is a brief description of Purgatory. A lot of Protestants will reject that without explaining (A) what it does mean and (B) how what they believe it means is somehow different from the form and effects of Purgatory.

At this point, I'm starting to wonder if the only thing they actually object to is the name "Purgatory".

It's an interpretation.

He was speaking of one particular sin which wouldn't be forgiven. The implication is that other sins might be forgiven in the world to come. The Catholic formulation of someone with a saving faith in Our Lord who dies before being forgiven for venial sins harmonizes with 1 Corinthians 3 and Our Lord's implication that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come.

That is not a burden for us. We're not bound only to things recorded in sacred scripture. Obviously others can abide by whatever they see fit. But our standards need not be the same as the standards of others.

But the problem is there is not enough information to base a doctrine on if they wanted to make a hypothesis or possible idea that’s one thing but not a doctrine. It’s guesswork. I’m at work and don’t have time to fully explain 1 Corinthians 3. I may have something I wrote in my notes.

 

[thecolorsblend]

But the problem is there is not enough information to base a doctrine on

If sacred scripture was our only guide... well, I think even that's open to discussion.

But scripture is not the only source for Catholic thought, as I'm sure you know.

I may have something I wrote in my notes.

I'm in no particular rush. It's getting a bit late in some parts of my country (America) anyway right now so we can pick this up later when you've had a chance to review your notes.

Either way, your reasoned and levelheaded posts have been rather enjoyable.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No it isn't. The passages which you have cited are lovely, comforting and aspirational but they're not necessarily proof-texts by themselves and I don't think they should be treated that way, especially when your interpretation of them raises challenges with other parts of sacred scripture.

Catholics believe God's grace is capable of that. Again, you don't have to agree. But that is what we think.

I'm afraid I must disagree. If anything, the sheer reality of Purgatory testifies that Our Lord's sacrifice is far more comprehensive than some Protestants might realize. His sacrifice is so perfect that it can even forgive venial sins after the faithful Christian has died.

People can say what they will about the Catholic Church's Christology but I sincerely don't see how anybody can claim that it is reductive.

Your comparing the scriptures I quoted which are extremely clear and precise to the scriptures that are claimed to be evidence of purgatory which are mostly parables and are undoubtedly not clearly teaching purgatory.

 

[Ronald]

The reality of Purgatory doesn't change that paradigm.

The reality of Purgatory doesn't argue against that proposition.

The reality of Purgatory is not an argument against that proposition either.

The reality of Purgatory is not "something else" added to Our Lord's sacrifice.

Purgatory is not a "second chance"

Mine has 73 books. Looks somebody shortened yours.

I guess your reality is based on 73 books.
It's interesting how the chapters of Isaiah parallel the 66 books of our Bible. Just a thought.

 

[Ronald]

Its sad that Catholics must go to purgatory. Protestants dont go there.

Its the burden of sin they still carry that is sad.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If sacred scripture was our only guide... well, I think even that's open to discussion.

But scripture is not the only source for Catholic thought, as I'm sure you know.

I'm in no particular rush. It's getting a bit late in some parts of my country (America) anyway right now so we can pick this up later when you've had a chance to review your notes.

Either way, your reasoned and levelheaded posts have been rather enjoyable.

Thanks brother it is always a pleasure to have a friendly debate without impolite remarks and insults. Honestly I try to focus on unity rather that division but on some topics I feel it is important that I proclaim what I believe to be true. On the topic of purgatory I feel this is absolutely imperative. It teaches that Jesus is not our one and only savior since His sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins and teaches that we must pay for them ourselves by suffering. This worries me because it can teach people to not fully rely on Jesus as their one and only savior. On the other hand if someone doesn’t believe in purgatory and they fully trust in Jesus Christ as their one and only savior. If that person is wrong he will not be condemned for not believing in purgatory and fully trusting in Christ.

 

[Ronald]

Not really.

"Purged"? Interesting word choice there.

One purpose of Purgatory is to purify the faithful of any lingering attachment to sin they may still have. We are to take up our cross and follow Him daily. But the fact is that some people will do that better than others. For those who are genuinely Heaven-bound but still sin-attached, Purgatory purifies them of their sin.

This is not to be understood as a "second chance". Someone either goes to Heaven or they go to Hell. But if someone is bound for Heaven while still needing purification, the purpose of Purgatory is to purify them.

I find the tone of this post and others of yours to be tonally inappropriate. It is not for you to decide what others have and have not been taught, I don't think.

Again, you think Christ sacrifice wasn't sufficient, the penalty He paid wasn't in full ... that we still owe something. Oh well, you'll be pleasantly surprised when you go to heaven directly ... You'll won't have to pay for that neo-Gnostic insult or marching for global warming or voting for Hillary.

 

[Ronald]

Jesus went to Hades to free those in prison there. He has to do it again? Hades doesn't exist. Ever hear anyone talking about fear of Hades anymore?

Rev. 20:13 did not happen yet. See, this is why we can't agree, you have been taught differently. Most Catholics believe most of Revelation happened and are Amillenialists, right? If you think Rev. 20:13 happened, you are wrong. Even if you were right about Hades, Death still exists, which proved Hades is still in place. The part of Hades where the Old Testament faithful went was released when Jesus died and then Heaven/Paradise was opened. Jesus told the thief, TODAY YOU WILL BE IN PARADISE.

 

[Afra]

Its the burden of sin they still carry that is sad.

Do you want our Lord Jesus to suffer for your sins? Are you happy that another man had to suffer for your transgressions?

Again, you think Christ sacrifice wasn't sufficient, the penalty He paid wasn't in full ... that we still owe something. Oh well, you'll be pleasantly surprised when you go to heaven directly ... You'll won't have to pay for that neo-Gnostic insult or marching for global warming or voting for Hillary.

You will be pleasantly surprised to know that our Lord did not suffer and die so that you can avoid all correction and consequences of the sins that you commit.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

HOGWASH!

Prove me wrong and I will renounce the Catholic faith.

 

[Afra]

It teaches that Jesus is not our one and only savior since His sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins and teaches that we must pay for them ourselves by suffering. This worries me because it can teach people to not fully rely on Jesus as their one and only savior. On the other hand if someone doesn’t believe in purgatory and they fully trust in Jesus Christ as their one and only savior. If that person is wrong he will not be condemned for not believing in purgatory and fully trusting in Christ.

No, that is not what the doctrine of purgatory teaches. If you want to know what it teaches you can look the doctrine up in the Catechism. This is simply a straw man argument.

And fully trusting in our Lord is no reason to deny truth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, that is not what the doctrine of purgatory teaches. If you want to know what it teaches you can look the doctrine up in the Catechism. This is simply a straw man argument.

And fully trusting in our Lord is no reason to deny truth.

Been there done that friend.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

According to the catechism the sins that are forgiven in the world to come must be purified by suffering in purgatory because they are not forgiven by Jesus’ sacrifice otherwise there would be no additional payment necessary. This idea contradicts Colossians 1:22. Holy and blameless without a single fault.