Are Protestants dead?

[W2L]

Are Protestants dead?

The title of this thread got my attention
Brings to mind this verse:

Luke 20:38
He is not God of the dead, but of the living,
for to Him all are alive."

Amen.

 

[Ronald]

OK. But what does God prefer?

Why not? And is our Lord limited by what you can imagine?

Oh, you most certainly can accept it. But you choose not to accept it.

Here is a quote for you to ponder: Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - St. Augustine

What does God prefer?
That's the problem isn't it. Discerning scripture, whether He meant His words to be taken literally or symbolically. I am a literalist, especially when it comes to eschatology, which Catholics seem to take symbolically.
But in this case, bread and wine are symbols that represent His sacrifice and are shared to commune with one another in remembrance.
But back to eschatology for example, it's perplexing how some are Preterists and others Futurists when we are reading the same scriptures. Educated scholars, priests, PhD's, discern one meaning and others with equal amounts of scholarship view it differently. Personally, I don't care what Augustine said, Calvin or even Luther for that matter. Scripture states "we do not need a teacher", for we have the Holy Spirit.
But still there is division. It is evident and argued that the Catholic is not relying on scripture alone but commentaries, church fathers, traditions, etc. Even Martin Luther accepted Purgatory and discussed it in his 95 Theses.
Centuries ago the RCC sold indulgences. They manipulated scripture for profits.
Did God prefer that?
Does God prefer praying to the saints and Mary when scripture supports no such thing?
Does God prefer His flock to bow down and pray under statues of Mary, the Saints or of Jesus when scripture tells us not to erect any statues of heavenly or earthly beings and bow down and worship them.
Jesus gave us a template of how we are to pray: to "Our Father Who art in Heaven ..."
We do not need to go to anyone else. We have direct access to Him, to Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us to guide, counsel and teach us all truth.
Does God prefer us to go to a priest and confess our sins? We are told to confess our sins with one another and/or to the congregation as well. But we certainly need go directly to God to confess our sins.
And then, what does He prefer, 10 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Father's? Or does He prefer us to die to ourselves and mortify our sins, not to return to Our old ways? What purpose would repetitious prayers that don't address the core of our sins do (as if a Hail Mary straightens out our path and removes the sin)?
So I turn back at you and ask, what does God prefer with all that?

 

[W2L]

Are protestants dead? Thats the question, but im wondering why no one seems interested in answering that question.

 

[Ronald]

I find it interesting that you mentioned the Incarnation there. Because if you hadn't, I would have.

Something a lot of people don't understand is how unthinkable the idea of God becoming man was to the ancients. Today a lot of Christians are perfectly comfortable with the idea that God took on human flesh. But to the ancients, their prejudices didn't easily permit the idea that God would become human, require food, sweat, go to the bathroom, etc. It was simply unthinkable to them.

And yet, the spread of Christianity testifies to the fact that people eventually found a way to make peace with that idea.

My point is that if God can become man in a culture that was offended by that very concept, is it really so hard to believe that He is unable or unwilling to in effect become bread? It is true that many Protestants find the idea revolting. But their disgust is nothing compared to the disgust the ancients had at the prospect of the Incarnation.

If they can put aside their prejudices long enough to consider the Incarnation, is it really so challenging for you to put aside your prejudices long enough to consider the Eucharist?

It is so hard to believe that the bread and wine literally turn into Christ's flesh and blood. However I did not think all misinterpretations of scripture as revolting, just wrong. God is forgiving and will correct those errors in time. Our belief in Christ, that He died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures secures our salvation. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, Who confirms our faith, Who communes with us daily. If our salvation was dependent on a pure understanding of scriptures, Augustine, Luther or Calvin wouldn't make it, nor would anyone else. We know in part ...

 

[BukiRob]

Are protestants dead? Thats the question, but im wondering why no one seems interested in answering that question.

Those that reject G-d's plan of salvation (believe and profess that Yeshua is Messiah) are alive, those that do not accept that is dead.

All institutions be they Catholic, Protestant, messianic have some doctrinal error. Some more than others. If your institution is teaching against clear scriptural decree's then you need to pray and listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to you.

 

[W2L]

Those that reject G-d's plan of salvation (believe and profess that Yeshua is Messiah) are alive, those that do not accept that is dead.

All institutions be they Catholic, Protestant, messianic have some doctrinal error. Some more than others. If your institution is teaching against clear scriptural decree's then you need to pray and listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to you.

I agree.

 

[BukiRob]

It is so hard to believe it. However I did not think all misinteroretatuins of scripture as revolting, just wrong. God is forgiving and will correct those errors in time. Our belief in Christ, that He died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures secures our salvation. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, Who confirms our faith, Who communes with us daily. If our salvation was dependent on a pure understanding of scriptures, Augustine, Luther or Calvin wouldn't make it, nor would anyone else. We know in part ...

Very true. And as we move closer to the end there will be a great shaking that will occur..
I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

A big part of why religious Jews reject Jesus is to an observant Jew, Jesus is a Gentile! Deuteronomy 13 explicitly warns them to REJECT any prophet or teacher!

Deut 13: 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you.

As long as the body largely presents a gentile messiah they will reject him based on the command in Deuteronomy 12

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Very true. And as we move closer to the end there will be a great shaking that will occur..
I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

A big part of why religious Jews reject Jesus is to an observant Jew, Jesus is a Gentile! Deuteronomy 13 explicitly warns them to REJECT any prophet or teacher!

Deut 13: 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him...........

As long as the body largely presents a gentile messiah they will reject him based on the command in Deuteronomy 12

Interesting.
First time I have heard Jesus mentioned as gentile by them. They need to read our NT/NC imho.

Acts 3:22 For Moses indeed toward the fathers saying: 'That a prophet to ye shall be raising up LORD, the God of ye out of the brothers of ye as Me.
Of Him ye shall be hearing according to all as much as ever He should be speaking toward ye. [Deut 18]

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a cloud, luminous upon-shadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying
"this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the assembly in Thyatira, write!
Now this is saying the Son of GOD, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass. [Mark 9:7]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches......................

 

[Afra]

What does God prefer?
That's the problem isn't it. Discerning scripture, whether He meant His words to be taken literally or symbolically. I am a literalist, especially when it comes to eschatology, which Catholics seem to take symbolically.
But in this case, bread and wine are symbols that represent His sacrifice and are shared to commune with one another in remembrance.
But back to eschatology for example, it's perplexing how some are Preterists and others Futurists when we are reading the same scriptures. Educated scholars, priests, PhD's, discern one meaning and others with equal amounts of scholarship view it differently. Personally, I don't care what Augustine said, Calvin or even Luther for that matter. Scripture states "we do not need a teacher", for we have the Holy Spirit.
But still there is division. It is evident and argued that the Catholic is not relying on scripture alone but commentaries, church fathers, traditions, etc. Even Martin Luther accepted Purgatory and discussed it in his 95 Theses.
Centuries ago the RCC sold indulgences. They manipulated scripture for profits.
Did God prefer that?
Does God prefer praying to the saints and Mary when scripture supports no such thing?
Does God prefer His flock to bow down and pray under statues of Mary, the Saints or of Jesus when scripture tells us not to erect any statues of heavenly or earthly beings and bow down and worship them.
Jesus gave us a template of how we are to pray: to "Our Father Who art in Heaven ..."
We do not need to go to anyone else. We have direct access to Him, to Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us to guide, counsel and teach us all truth.
Does God prefer us to go to a priest and confess our sins? We are told to confess our sins with one another and/or to the congregation as well. But we certainly need go directly to God to confess our sins.
And then, what does He prefer, 10 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Father's? Or does He prefer us to die to ourselves and mortify our sins, not to return to Our old ways? What purpose would repetitious prayers that don't address the core of our sins do (as if a Hail Mary straightens out our path and removes the sin)?
So I turn back at you and ask, what does God prefer with all that?

Off-topic.

I suggest that you address each of these topics in an anti-Catholic rant forum.

 

[Ronald]

Your post misquotes what Jesus said. He said "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." (John 6:35) And he also said "48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." (John 6:48-51)

Jesus is the bread that came down from heaven. And Jesus gives his flesh for the life of the world. You can take that however you like but he said he himself is the bread of life. Not as your post says. Your post incorrectly says that "the bread is His Spirit/His words" and that is just not the truth. It is not what the verses you cited say.

His Spirit came down and became flesh. His words remain and everything else will pass away. Owur belief us the whole essence and foundation of our salvation is it not? My paraphrase is accurate, that is what it says in vs. 50, He is the bread, God is spirit and His words are trith6 which is what we consume. But take the bread and eat, think how you may about it.

 

[Ronald]

Off-topic.

I suggest that you address each of these topics in an anti-Catholic rant forum.

Just making a point of what does God prefer and gave examples. Didn't mean to open a can of worms. At this point I realize you can only focus on one thing at a time and even that is questionable.
I am not anti-Catholic. The poster's OP suggests he is anti-Protestant though. Are we dead? Tell me, if The bread becomes Jesus flesh and the wine His blood, why wouldn't you want more of it, even on a daily basis? Well, flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, so that thought is futile.
Keep your ritual, I'm not trying t o convince you, I just have a different interpretation of Communion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Off-topic.

I suggest that you address each of these topics in an anti-Catholic rant forum.

Oh my goodness .................

 

[BukiRob]

Interesting.
First time I have heard Jesus mentioned as gentile by them. They need to read our NT/NC imho.

Acts 3:22 For Moses indeed toward the fathers saying: 'That a prophet to ye shall be raising up LORD, the God of ye out of the brothers of ye as Me.
Of Him ye shall be hearing according to all as much as ever He should be speaking toward ye. [Deut 18]

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a cloud, luminous upon-shadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying
"this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the assembly in Thyatira, write!
Now this is saying the Son of GOD, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass. [Mark 9:7]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches......................

The problem is not the NT (brit cadasha ) The problem is GENTILES have stripped away his Jewishness.
Jesus is not, never was, never will be a gentile. He was a TORAH OBSERVANT JEW who was/is/will be the MESSIAH

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The problem is not the NT (brit cadasha ) The problem is GENTILES have stripped away his Jewishness.
Jesus is not, never was, never will be a gentile. He was a TORAH OBSERVANT JEW who was/is/will be the MESSIAH

In what way?

Galatian 2:
14 When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? 15 We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ 16 know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

 

[Ronald]

Very true. And as we move closer to the end there will be a great shaking that will occur..
I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

A big part of why religious Jews reject Jesus is to an observant Jew, Jesus is a Gentile! Deuteronomy 13 explicitly warns them to REJECT any prophet or teacher!

Deut 13: 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you.

As long as the body largely presents a gentile messiah they will reject him based on the command in Deuteronomy 12

Why would you segway into Jews not believing in Christ? I was talking about it being hard to believe that bread and wine actually becomes the body and blood if Christ. I alluded to mans imperfect understanding of scriptures as not to be held against him and that our faith is sufficient.
Btw, according Romans 11, Jews were blinded for our sake and have been to this day. If God blinds you, there is no way you can see until He lifts the veil if blindness. He will do that when Christ returns and a remnant 1/3 of the Jews will be saved. Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. They will mourn. Can you imagine the realization of their rejection for almost 2000 years and then, oops He really is the Messiah we've been waiting for. How guilty and angry and sorrowful you would feel? To think your religion was essentially against God since Christ appeared and you just followed along with the feasts, rituals, teaching in the Synagogues. How the Rabbis will respond

 

[BukiRob]

In what way?

Galatian 2:
14 When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? 15 We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ 16 know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

It is equally obvious you have not studied much of the Tanakh nor have you spoken with observant Jews.

Yet again you do not understand Torah at ALL....No one has EVER been saved by keeping Torah.

Abraham was saved by Faith. Faith in NO WAY nullifies Torah.

I fail to understand why you and many other gentiles INSIST on linking BEING OBEDIENT with attempting to justify through the law. It is WRONG and I have never, ever said that observing the Torah has anything to do with salvation so please stop citing this ridiculous assertion!

 

[Afra]

Are we dead?

God is the judge of that.

Tell me, if The bread becomes Jesus flesh and the wine His blood, why wouldn't you want more of it, even on a daily basis?

You can attend Mass daily after you convert.

Well, flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, so that thought is futile.

No, "so that thought is futile" does not logically follow.

Keep your ritual, I'm not trying t o convince you, I just have a different interpretation of Communion.

I will keep what I desire to keep, and discard what I desire to discard. You have no authority to tell me to keep or to discard anything, and I am not concerned with whether you are or are not trying to convince me of anything. Can you stay on topic?

 

[Ronald]

God is the judge of that.

You can attend Mass daily after you convert.

No, this does not logically follow.

I will keep what I desire to keep, and discard what I desire to discard. You have no authority to tell me to keep or to discard anything, and I am not concerned with whether you are or are not trying to convince me of anything. Can you stay on topic?

Sure. We should have just let you answer the OP all by yourself. It would have saved all of us lots of time and effort.
You did do that by summing it up for us: "God is the judge of that!"

Brothers and sisters, from now on, we should all learn from Afra's succinct answer to any controversaries and doctrinal differences we may have ... before we waste too much time.
"GOD IS THE JUDGE OF THAT!"
THANK YOU BROTHER ... I GUESS WE ARE DONE HERE. AMEN.

 

[John tower]

Then define the apostolic tradition.


It is clear Irenaeus recognized the Holy Scriptures as Holy Spirit inspired through the Prophets and apostles.


Indeed. Now what are these traditions of apostolic origin which are not written in Sacred Scriptures?


I fully understand Cardinal Newman's Doctrinal Development theology from the 19th Century (required reading in Jesuit university). It was shortly after that that your magisterium started to 'remember' traditions long forgotten.



Again what are the big "T" traditions not handed down in writing---Sacred Scriptures?

So tired of all these people trying to impress others with all these big words , mostly made up false terms of men : Great swelling words of MANS VANITY!

 

[BukiRob]

This "doctrines" come from God, and His Holy Church. Sacred tradition is always inspired from the Holy Spirit.

HOGWASH!