Praying to Saints

[SparkyKarl]

How do you know what are its (so-called) "lies" & what are its truthes?

By reading my Bible and then looking at what the Catholic Church teaches and practices.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many early Christian graves had inscriptions reading "pray for me" and "peace be with you" (St. Philomena might be the most famous one). The oldest prayer to Mary that we know of, "Sub tuum praesidium", might even predate the Nicene Creed. And even if there were no explicit Scripture talking about praying to the saints, I do think that it is 100% consistent with the Biblical worldview. For these early Christians, death was not so big an obstacle to communion - perhaps because death and martyrdom were part of daily life.

Venerating Saints
Just because someone prays in front of something, doesn't mean that they are praying to them. By that logic, all Christians are praying to air, since they are simply praying in the presence of air. Relics are associated with Christ and the saints, and since God is not only God of our souls, but also of our bodies, he can - and will - use physical things to bring graces to his people.

The same with statues: they are "holy reminders". Praying in front of a statue of a saint and even bowing down before a statue, are legitimate ways of honouring that saint, since that saint is not physically present there with you. It's the same as saluting the flag or honouring the picture of the monarch (if you happen to be living in a kingdom).

Also, and I'm suprised this hasn't been brought up yet, the are three kinds of "worship". The first is "worship of adoration" (latria) reserved for God alone. Adoring any object other than God as if it were the eternal, everlasting, allmighty Lord of hosts is a terrible and most heinous sin. The second kind is "worship of veneration" (dulia), where we give honour to someone who deserves honour. The saints definitively deserve honour, since they have finished the race, live in heavenly glory, and show us how to live the good Christian life. The third kind is "worship of hyper-veneration" (hyperdulia), rendered unto Mary. Mary, because of her role in the salvific history, and being the mother of God, deserves more honour than any other creature that ever was or ever will be - but she is still merely a creature.

Saints as mediators
Yes, Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. But the saints are "in Christ". Without Christ, they could not do anything. The saints are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), and therefore take part in Christ's ministry. Christ is the Mediator by his very Nature - but the saints are mediators in Christ, by his grace. They are still human, and they are still powerless on their own. But it pleased God to use them as tools and instruments. And yes, I do imagine - unironically - that it could go down like this:

Mark: "Holy Joseph, help me get a job."
God: "St. Joseph, just so you know, Mark has been asking you for help in getting a job. If you pray for him, I will grant it."
St. Joseph: "Ok, I will. Allmighty God, I pray for Mark, that you may make it so that he gets a job ..."
God: "Joseph, since you ask, of course I will grant it!"
- some time later, Mark gets a job -
Mark: "Thanks be to God for his saints!"

This scenario is not any less absurd if we remove the middle man. My point is that all this saint-praying-stuff happens in the context of Christ, our one true Mediator. I cannot stress that enough.

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

 

[Mark_Sam]

That said, I think Mary is co-mediator and co-redeemer according to Catholicism which I don't agree with

With the danger of going out on a tangent: Yes, Mary is called "Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix" (the Apostolic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, 62). It is true that many Catholics call Mary "Mediatrix of all graces" and Co-redemptrix (co-redemptress), but these are not dogmatically defined. Catholics are free to disagree, as long as they do not deny Mary's intercession and mediation in general. In fact, many people thought that pope St. John Paul II - a very Marian pope - would declare the dogma of Marian coredemption. But he did not. Personally, it think that the title "Mary, mother of the Church" more accurately describes the relationship between Christ, Mary, the Church and salvation.

So you believe that saints who die today get a resurrected body immediately in Heaven?

You do have a point: theologians point out that we shouldn't say "Holy Mary, pray for us", but rather "The soul of holy Mary, pray for us". But that would be very tedious to add every time, so "St. X, pray for us" is a shorthand for "the soul of St. X, pray for us".

Frankly, I find the mental gymnastics Catholics do to tell us that they DON'T pray to Mary when their OFFICIAL catechism understandable even if it's deceitful, confused or delusional. It seems to many Catholics the line between asking someone to pray for them and actually praying to that person is blurred, when to others (except similar high church types) there's a clear difference.

But here's the thing: we DO pray to the saints. What we disagree on is, whether or not praying in and of itself constitutes worship. This roundabout way of phrasing it is for the sake of our Protestant brothers. In my native language - Norwegian - "to pray" (be) can be used in many ways. "Pray to God" (be til Gud); "ask for a favour" (be om en tjeneste); "invite to a party" (be til fest) and so forth. And this is the case in many languages.

So if I really wanted to be theologically precise, I could say: "O soul of holy Mary, I pray to you - but I'm using pray in the sense of asking a favour, and do not intend to worship you. Worship is reserved for God alone - that you, since you are in Christ and are a partaker of the divine mysteries in Heaven - because on your own you are powerless, but by the grace of God he has made you a powerfull intercessor - would pray for me and with me to God, the allmighty Father, through Christ our Lord, in the Holy Spirit, whose power makes this possible. Amen."

Or I could just say: "Holy Mary, pray for me. Amen."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Which demonstrates the falasy of sola scriptura.
Since neither does it say they are alive on earth.
Scripture is not unambiguous nor is it a complete manual of faith,

Which is where tradition kicks in -the faith handed down as the primary means of communication - and authority - and we see documented prayers for intercession, long before the New Testament canon had been decided by the authority of councils of the Catholic Church. Indeed some of the fathers who chose your New Testament were vociferous on the matter.

Indeed " he is not god of the dead, for all live to him"
And as we see at the transfiguration, they are live in another form, the " cloud of witnesses" that surround us.

How does the prayers of the saints before the alter of God (Which does not talk about the saints being a live or dead) prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura?

Again, you cannot prove that Catholic sacred tradition is divine in origin like the Holy Scriptures (i.e. the Bible). I created a blogger article that shows just the tip of the iceberg of some evidences that back up God's Word in being divine.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Umm... no. They do believe they can pray directly to God and they are not expecting the saints to answer the prayers, only God answers prayers and they believe this as well as only God forgives sin. I suggest you research into these things. You sound like I did before I started finding out what they actually believe rather than spout off what I had been fed in the baptist church.

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin (1 Timothy 2:5). It is also awfully close to necromancy in the fact that it is a two way conversation with the dead. Also, how can saints answer millions of prayers? Are they God and or did God turn them into being like God? Prayer is something only due to God because God is the only One who has such a power. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find examples of saints praying to dead believers, as well. All this should tell you that what they are doing is not correct. Then there are the other things they do which are not Biblical, as well. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture. Exodus 20 forbids the making of statues and bowing to them - Nothing is said if you worship it or not; And yet, we see Catholics make statues and bow themselves to them. Jesus said that the Scribes seek to go about in long flowing robes and seek after attention. Does that make you think of somebody in the Catholic church?

 

[Mary7]

I was refuting your idea that just because the church fathers said something, it had to be true.

Do you trust the Bible that those church fathers were trusted by God to put together almost 400 years later?

 

[Mountainmike]

Now read it again. It is black and white logic,


You asserted it did not say " dead saints".

I pointed out the obvious truth, neither did it say "live saints"

That demonstrates firstly the falasy of your conclusion based on presumption of "live"

But also the falasy that scripture is unambiguous, and can answer such questions alone. So refuting sola scriptura - which is entirely a man made doctrine of the reformation.

Truth was passed by tradition not scripture in the early church. And authority of the church was needed and used to resolve disputes. As indeed scripture says.

How does the prayers of the saints before the alter of God (Which does not talk about the saints being a live or dead) prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura?

Again, you cannot prove that Catholic sacred tradition is divine in origin like the Holy Scriptures (i.e. the Bible). I created a blogger article that shows just the tip of the iceberg of some evidences that back up God's Word in being divine.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture.

 

[Mountainmike]

Now read it again. It is black and white logic,


You asserted it did not say " dead saints".

I pointed out the obvious truth, neither did it say "live saints"

That demonstrates firstly the falasy of your conclusion based on presumption of "live"

But also the falasy that scripture is unambiguous, and can answer such questions alone. So refuting sola scriptura - which is entirely a man made doctrine of the reformation.

Truth was passed by tradition not scripture in the early church. And authority of the church was needed and used to resolve disputes. As indeed scripture says.

Like most anticatholics. You also clearly don't understand the meaning of tradition - a process not a doctrine.
And the way the faith was handed on,

How does the prayers of the saints before the alter of God (Which does not talk about the saints being a live or dead) prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura?

Again, you cannot prove that Catholic sacred tradition is divine in origin like the Holy Scriptures (i.e. the Bible). I created a blogger article that shows just the tip of the iceberg of some evidences that back up God's Word in being divine.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture.

 

[Mountainmike]

Now read it again. It is black and white logic,


You asserted it did not say " dead saints".

I pointed out the obvious truth, neither did it say "live saints"

That demonstrates firstly the falasy of your conclusion based on presumption of "live"

But also the falasy that scripture is unambiguous, and can answer such questions alone. So refuting sola scriptura - which is entirely a man made doctrine of the reformation.

Truth was passed by tradition not scripture in the early church. And authority of the church was needed and used to resolve disputes. As indeed scripture says.

Like most anticatholics. You also clearly don't understand the meaning of tradition - a process not a doctrine.
And the way the faith was handed on, study th early church.

How does the prayers of the saints before the alter of God (Which does not talk about the saints being a live or dead) prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura?

Again, you cannot prove that Catholic sacred tradition is divine in origin like the Holy Scriptures (i.e. the Bible). I created a blogger article that shows just the tip of the iceberg of some evidences that back up God's Word in being divine.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture.

 

[Mary7]

I was refuting your idea that just because the church fathers said something, it had to be true.

Do you trust the Bible that those church fathers were trusted by God to put together almost 400 years later?

 

[Mary7]

posts dont post.. then pop up with several later

 

[Mary7]

I was refuting your idea that just because the church fathers said something, it had to be true.

Do you trust the Bible that those church fathers were trusted by God to put together almost 400 years later?
(my posts are not posting)

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

It is a Roman Catholic 'tradition' to pray to Mary, saints, angels, and even relics. It is a hangover from the first century pagan mystery religions common in Rome. It is not based on the scriptures.

Since through Jesus Christ, our one and only Mediator, we have full access to the Father, why would we even want to pray to anyone else? No one else is God. If we pray to Mary or to the saints or to angels, we reveal a lack of faith in the scriptures and are bordering on idolatry.

"For through Him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (Ephesians 2:18)

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16)

The Amplified Bible translates Ephesians 3:12 with enlightening clarity. "In Whom, because of our faith in Him, we dare to have the boldness (courage and confidence) of free access (an unreserved approach to God with freedom and without fear)."

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1,2)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With the danger of going out on a tangent: Yes, Mary is called "Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix" (the Apostolic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, 62). It is true that many Catholics call Mary "Mediatrix of all graces" and Co-redemptrix (co-redemptress), but these are not dogmatically defined. Catholics are free to disagree, as long as they do not deny Mary's intercession and mediation in general. In fact, many people thought that pope St. John Paul II - a very Marian pope - would declare the dogma of Marian coredemption. But he did not. Personally, it think that the title "Mary, mother of the Church" more accurately describes the relationship between Christ, Mary, the Church and salvation. You do have a point: theologians point out that we shouldn't say "Holy Mary, pray for us", but rather "The soul of holy Mary, pray for us". But that would be very tedious to add every time, so "St. X, pray for us" is a shorthand for "the soul of St. X, pray for us".

This conflicts with Jesus being are one and only mediator.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5).

But here's the thing: we DO pray to the saints. What we disagree on is, whether or not praying in and of itself constitutes worship. This roundabout way of phrasing it is for the sake of our Protestant brothers. In my native language - Norwegian - "to pray" (be) can be used in many ways. "Pray to God" (be til Gud); "ask for a favour" (be om en tjeneste); "invite to a party" (be til fest) and so forth. And this is the case in many languages.

Prayer is worship because worship is about giving God all the glory. We learn in the Lord's prayer that says it is thy will be done and not our own will. Worship is reverencing God and His will and plans for our life.

Then there is the silence from Scripture of no actual Christian praying to the dead, as well. This should be obvious that we are not to pray to the dead because necromancy is similar.

So if I really wanted to be theologically precise, I could say: "O soul of holy Mary, I pray to you - but I'm using pray in the sense of asking a favour, and do not intend to worship you. Worship is reserved for God alone - that you, since you are in Christ and are a partaker of the divine mysteries in Heaven - because on your own you are powerless, but by the grace of God he has made you a powerfull intercessor - would pray for me and with me to God, the allmighty Father, through Christ our Lord, in the Holy Spirit, whose power makes this possible. Amen."

Or I could just say: "Holy Mary, pray for me. Amen."

So if other Catholics do not pray this way, they will be condemned? If you believe Mary is co-mediatrix then she takes place as a part of a position that is exclusive to God alone. The Scriptures say nothing of her being like a God to take prayer. She was also a sinner who needed God's grace. For she rejoiced in God her Savior. We are to have no other Gods before us. That is the 1st command in the giving of the 10 commandments. Praying to another entity besides God is having another god (little "g"). You may disagree with prayer not being all that exclusive to the power of God alone, but why take that chance. Why do it when it leans so close to necromancy? For me personally, I would not want to play games like that.

 

[Mountainmike]

My suggestion is you study early church history.

You are way off base about Catholicism.

And also scripture.
There are many references in scripture to asking others to pray for us. Which you dismiss in your rhetoric.

As for Mary as intercessor, she is heralded in the OT as a davidic queen , with power of intercession, which she uses at Cana to be told his " time had not yet come" which it has now! Jesus did what she asked anyway.

It is a Roman Catholic 'tradition' to pray to Mary, saints, angels, and even relics. It is a hangover from the first century pagan mystery religions common in Rome. It is not based on the scriptures.

Since through Jesus Christ, our one and only Mediator, we have full access to the Father, why would we even want to pray to anyone else? No one else is God. If we pray to Mary or to the saints or to angels, we reveal a lack of faith in the scriptures and are bordering on idolatry.

"For through Him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (Ephesians 2:18)

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16)

The Amplified Bible translates Ephesians 3:12 with enlightening clarity. "In Whom, because of our faith in Him, we dare to have the boldness (courage and confidence) of free access (an unreserved approach to God with freedom and without fear)."

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1,2)

 

[wilts43]

The Bible forbids us to bow or kneel before statues. It doesn’t give any exceptions to this rule in either the wording or the context of the chapter.

“Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:1‬

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Mary and the saints and I know that we are no longer bound to the law but it just seems like a very unnecessary action that can easily be avoided for the sake of obedience to God.

Catholics do not worship statues.
But DOES (Exodus 20:3-5) FORBID MAKING STATUES, IMAGES & ART?
Absolutely not......unless you make nonesense of other passages.
Only 5 chapters later (in God's instructions for The Ark of The Covenent) God TELLS them to create graven images!

(1)In Exodus 25:18-20, God COMMANDS Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. " And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. "

(2)God also gave directions for images and animals as decoration of the temple and placed cheribum on the ark of the covenant. 1Kings 7:27 "Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames, and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."

(3) God commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.

(4)God had Moses create a staff with a serpent at the top. People looking at it were cured. According to Protestant critics of Catholics this was idolatory.

Catholics do not "worship" images. Catholic doctrine forbids that. We "use" them as reminders; and to focus our attention.
Do you use images of your family to remind you to think of them? Have you ever kissed a photo or talked to it, or said "I love you"? I have: but I was not "worshipping" (or even "loving") the paper! It directed my thoughts to the person it represents.
Have you never used any prayer aid or prayer-reminder for focus? When I kiss a crucifix I am using my body to cause my mind to love & thank Jesus; I am not worshipping the material it's made of. It's even more useful to have images of what we have not seen (e.g. Mary) to give our mind's imagination a path to contemplation (e.g. of our Mother Mary in Heaven).

You have to remember, that at the time of the Mosaic Law, people literally thought they could literally "make" powerful Gods & worship them. The problem was that, for the Jews (with their "abstract God") they lacked an easy prayer-focus and the people fell away easily.
Our danger of falling into idolatory today is not statuary but MONEY, POWER, ADDICTIONS etc.
That Mosaic situation is remedied by God's INCARNATION in Christ. God has given us images of Himself.....
(1)In The God-Man Christ,
(2)In "The Father-God"
(3)The Holy Spirit as Dove/Tongues-of-fire. God himself gave us these images!
And on the shroud of Turin I believe God has actually given us an image of Himself/Christ. What do you make of the image on the shroud? Do you ignore it? Do you mock it? Do you say to God "You can't do that" Or would you venerate it as I would? If you were before this cloth, how would you treat it?

CRECHE/CRIB? Do you have a Christmas Creche? So do you have a statue of Mary in your Church for a month? Would it be OK to look at her there & think..."Thank you Mary for bringing Jesus into this world"? If you looked at Mary with Jesus in the creche, and said...... "Hail full of grace, the Lord is with with thee"...."blessed art thou amongst women" and "all generations shall indeed call you blessed" for you are "the handmaid of the Lord" that "magnifies the Lord" and brings Him forth into the world by the power of your spouse The holy Spirit...... You would have just quoted a lot of scripture from Luke! Would this be "praying to Mary"?
The early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs. They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
in the OT in 2 Kings 13, a dead man comes back to life after touching the bones of the prophet Elisha.
In Acts; "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."
In Mark 5:25-34 A woman is healed by touching Jesus' garment. "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?” Jesus healed a blind man using mud & spit.

Protestantism has tended to DIS-incarnate Christianity sometimes to the point of Gnosticism. It became about reading, hearing, knowledge & thinking.....a Head religion.
This was (over)-compensated for in 19 Century Revivalism up to the moment, which accentuates emotional satisfactions in worship & prayer.

Catholicism is more about growing in sanctity/holiness, allowing the real, living Jesus in The Eucharist into us.... to transform us. Since God has taken flesh in Christ, Catholic Christianity recognises that "The Flesh" is blessed by God too. So we are comfortable using our bodies (and material aids).....
It's to HELP us "worship in the spirit". It's NOT INSTEAD of worshipping in the spirit. (It's another "Both/And" )
Have uou have been indoctrinated to "see" idolatory, where there is love & honour being expressed with our bodies?
It is another typical "EITHER/OR" Protestant dichotomy. We worship with our bodies to HELP us "worship in the spirit". It's NOT INSTEAD of "worship in the spirit." HUMANS are BODY & SPIRIT Since Jesus became incarnate even our bodies are holy and are rightly used in worship.

 

[beefreetwo]

They think that people who have already been admitted to heaven must have more pull with God, so they enlist them as go-betweens.

Just another reason why I’m
Not catholic - I do believe in essentials Catholics are fine but not until Jesus comes again will heaven and hell be decided - the Bible says absence from the body present with the lord - only 3-4 people are mentioned that saw or went to heaven - Jesus Ezekiel Paul an psalms says the dead no nothing - the Bible says over and over we pray to god only - there is none righteous no not one - almost all saints had bad pasts

 

[wilts43]

Yet, no Catholic can prove sacred tradition is divine in origin (1 Timothy 2:5). It is also awfully close to necromancy in the fact that it is a two way conversation with the dead. Also, how can saints answer millions of prayers? Are they God and or did God turn them into being like God? Prayer is something only due to God because God is the only One who has such a power. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find examples of saints praying to dead believers, as well. All this should tell you that what they are doing is not correct. Then there are the other things they do which are not Biblical, as well. In fact, it many practices conflicts with Scripture. Exodus 20 forbids the making of statues and bowing to them - Nothing is said if you worship it or not; And yet, we see Catholics make statues and bow themselves to them. Jesus said that the Scribes seek to go about in long flowing robes and seek after attention. Does that make you think of somebody in the Catholic church?

Where does is say, in The Bible, "Everything has to be in The Bible"?

 

[Netgear]

By reading my Bible and then looking at what the Catholic Church teaches and practices.

In other words, Sola Scripture