Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

[swordsman1]

It seems that you would be well advised to check the sources before you post them, where you then claim that they say things that they do not, for example:

• Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits (1738)

If you go to pages 304-05 you will discover that he considers 'the perfect' to refer to our future state in heaven.

No, it is you that needs to check the sources. Jonathan Edwards said there is a twofold 'perfect' in relation to 1 Cor 13:10. First when the canon was complete and tongues/prophecy ceased, and secondly at the eternal state when all the other gifts cease.

Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits (1738)
There is a twofold imperfect, and so a twofold perfect state of the Christian church. The church in its beginning, or in its first stage, before it was strongly established in the world, and settled in its New Testament state, and before the canon of Scripture was completed, was in an imperfect state -a state, as it were, of childhood, in comparison with what it was to be in its elder and later ages, when it should have reached its state of manhood, or of comparative earthly perfection. And so, again, this comparatively perfect church of Christ, so long as it remains in its militant state, that is, down to the end of time, will still be in an imperfect, and, as it were, in a childish state, in comparison with what it will be in its heavenly state, in which latter it is comparatively in its state of manhood or perfection.

And so there is a twofold failing of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit here mentioned. One was at the end of the first or infant age of the church, when the canon of Scripture was completed, and so there was to be no need of such gifts for the church in its latter ages, when it should have put away childish things, and come to a state of manhood before the end of the world, and when the Spirit of God should most gloriously be poured out and manifested in that love or charity, which is its greatest and everlasting fruit. And the other will be, when all the common fruits of the Spirit cease with respect to particular persons at death, and with respect to the whole church at the end of the world, while charity shall still remain in heaven, and there the Spirit of God shall be poured forth and manifested in perfect love in every heart to all eternity.​

• John Owen - A Discourse concerning the Holy Spirit (1676)

At this point of time, I am struggling to find a reference to the perfect by John Owen. His work on pages 474-486 titled The Original, duration, use, and end, of extraordinary spiritual gifts provides no reference to 1 Cor 13:10 at all.

You never said you were only limiting your historical search for the canon theory with specific references to 1 Cor 13:10. John Owen makes no specific reference to that verse, but he is clearly alluding to it by his repeated use of the word perfect. He clearly attributes the cessation of prophecy to the completion of the canon.

John Owen - A Discourse concerning the Holy Spirit (1676). p80, p334, p590
Since the finishing of the canon of the Scripture, the church is not under that conduct as to stand in need of such new extraordinary revelations. It doth, indeed, live upon the internal gracious operations of the Spirit, enabling us to understand, believe, and obey the perfect, complete revelation of the will of God already made; but new revelations it hath neither need nor use of; — and to suppose them, or a necessity of them, not only overthrows the perfection of the Scripture, but also leaveth us uncertain whether we know all that is to be believed in order unto salvation, or our whole duty, or when we may do so; for it would be our duty to live all our days in expectation of new revelations, wherewith neither peace, assurance, nor consolation is consistent.
...
But as this gift has now ceased under the New Testament, after the finishing of the canon of Scripture; nor was it by any pretended to, so was it limited of old to a very few inspired people, and plays no part in our present inquiry.
...
And this direction manifests that the gift was extraordinary, and is now ceased; though there be a continuance of ordinary gifts of the same kind, and to the same end in the church, as we shall see afterwards, ver. 30.​

 

[Major1]

The Greek word teleios doesn't mean perfect, but complete.

Go and have a chat with your friend swordsman, you're more likely to take it coming from him than me.
FD​

Thank you but I thought that you and I were friends also.

I do not have to ask anyone my dear friend. I am very aware that the word can mean "Complete and also can mean Mature".

I fail to see how that changes the understanding that it means the "Completion of the Scriptures."
It seems to me that it actually enhances that view.

And since we agree, then how can the 2nd Coming of Christ fit the explanation of "Completeness"?

I can certainly see the word being the fulfillment of prophecy but wouldn't that just as well fit the completeness of the canon of Scripture?

I do not see how it can be the coming Kingdom as that event does not complete the plan of God. After that event there is the New heaven and the new Earth so the terminology just does not work for me.

But again, if it does for you then I am glad for you.

 

[Major1]

I myself don't want to speak in tongues.

Romans 8.9 says: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." As I understand it, being born again I already have the Holy Spirit indwelling. I already have the full revelation of God in His Word.

And that is exactly what I believe as well.

The Bible teaches us that the moment we accept Christ we are then filled with the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Major1]

I myself don't want to speak in tongues.

Romans 8.9 says: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." As I understand it, being born again I already have the Holy Spirit indwelling. I already have the full revelation of God in His Word.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (ESV)

" In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. "

 

[faroukfarouk]

Ephesians 1:13–14 (ESV)

" In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. "

Good verses there also.

 

[Fidelibus]

Given the nonsense of Papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, The Assumption of Mary, the ever virgin Mary (whose other children are referred to in the gospels), the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has no more authority in this discussion than has the Koran or Hindu writings.

Are you calling Scripture nonsence? For this nonsence can be backed with Sacred Scripture/ Sacred Tradition, and Early Church History. (excluding Koran and Hindu writings that is) Don't believe it? Start a new thread on any or all and I'll show ya.

Whether I agree with swordsman, Major, or any other cessationist, we are (for better or worse) seeking the truth from scripture.

Really? So tell me, what does Scripture say is the "the pillar and ground of the truth?"


Also, what if you were to disagree with swordsman, Major1, or Biblicist on any certain bible passage, and you all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit in your own interpretation? You agree the Holy Spirit is incapable of error.... correct? So, who would be in error, you... them? And by what or who's authority determines it?

Have a Blessed Lenten Season

 

[1stcenturylady]

Are you calling Scripture nonsence? For this nonsence can be backed with Sacred Scripture/ Sacred Tradition, and Early Church History. (excluding Koran and Hindu writings that is) Don't believe it? Start a new thread on any or all and I'll show ya.



Really? So tell me, what does Scripture say is the "the pillar and ground of the truth?"


Also, what if you were to disagree with swordsman, Major1, or Biblicist on any certain bible passage, and you all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit in your own interpretation? You agree the Holy Spirit is incapable of error.... correct? So, who would be in error, you... them? And by what or who's authority determines it?

Have a Blessed Lenten Season

The Church is the pillar, but the Church is only based on what Jesus said, and what the Apostles said who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

All who believe what is written or quoted by them, is THE CHURCH. Not the Roman Catholic Church who claims they are the only church and claims they have a right to add holy traditions so they can worship Mary which is NO WHERE in scripture - THE CHURCH of Jesus Christ. What the Roman Catholic Church adheres to which is in scripture is not where we have a problem. They have made Mary an idol. Jesus is the ONLY mediator between us and God, not dead Christians or relatives. As long as a Catholic or EO doesn't worship Mary, and prays to the Father in the name of Jesus as directed in holy scripture, I have no problem with them. Many Catholics are filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues, which is praying directly to the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Major1]

From memory, you did post some rather abstract titles a few months back but I struggled to find valid links to them and I suspect that many of the items would have gone the same way as Major1's blunder, where he had blindly hoped that some commentators had said something that they in fact did not say, of which I have already pointed out to him.

Considering the lack of accessible historical information that supports the Canon view, then I more than welcome any valid and searchable links to such information. But please do not repeat what Major1 did, please check your sources before you post them.

Cessationism
The classic work is B. B. Warfield, Counterfeit Miracles (New York: Charles Scribners, 1918).

• Edgar, Thomas R. Miraculous Gifts: Are They for Today? (Neptune, N.J.: Loizeaux Brothers, 1983).

• David Farnell, F. David. "The New Testament Prophetic Gift: Its Nature and Duration." ThD Dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1990.

• Gaffin, Richard B., Jr., Perspectives on Pentecost: Studies in New Testament Teaching on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979).

• Gardiner, G. E. The Corinthian Catastrophe. Grand Rapids: Kregel Publica¬tions, 1974.

• Geisler, Norman L. Signs and Wonders. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House, 1988.

• Gentry, K. L. The Charismatic Gift of Prophecy─A Reformed Response to Wayne Grudem Memphis: Footstool Publications, 1989.

• Gromacki, Robert G. The Modern Tongues Movement. Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1976.

• Hoekema, Anthony. What About Tongues Speaking? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1966.

• MacArthur, John. Charismatic Chaos, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992).

• Poythress, Vern. "Affirming modern extraordinary works of the Spirit in the context of cessationist theology". Evangelical Theological Society papers, 1993. ETS-4511.

• Robertson, O. Palmer. The Final Word, (Edinburgh : Banner of Truth Trust, 1993) — this includes a critique of Wayne Grudem's position regarding prophecy.

• White, R. Fowler. “Richard Gaffin and Wayne Grudem: A Comparison of Cessationist and Noncessationist Argumentation.” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 35, no. 2 (June 1992): 173-81.

 

[Biblicist]

No, it is you that needs to check the sources. Jonathan Edwards said there is a twofold 'perfect' in relation to 1 Cor 13:10. First when the canon was complete and tongues/prophecy ceased, and secondly at the eternal state when all the other gifts cease.

Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits (1738)
There is a twofold imperfect, and so a twofold perfect state of the Christian church. The church in its beginning, or in its first stage, before it was strongly established in the world, and settled in its New Testament state, and before the canon of Scripture was completed, was in an imperfect state -a state, as it were, of childhood, in comparison with what it was to be in its elder and later ages, when it should have reached its state of manhood, or of comparative earthly perfection. And so, again, this comparatively perfect church of Christ, so long as it remains in its militant state, that is, down to the end of time, will still be in an imperfect, and, as it were, in a childish state, in comparison with what it will be in its heavenly state, in which latter it is comparatively in its state of manhood or perfection.

And so there is a twofold failing of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit here mentioned. One was at the end of the first or infant age of the church, when the canon of Scripture was completed, and so there was to be no need of such gifts for the church in its latter ages, when it should have put away childish things, and come to a state of manhood before the end of the world, and when the Spirit of God should most gloriously be poured out and manifested in that love or charity, which is its greatest and everlasting fruit. And the other will be, when all the common fruits of the Spirit cease with respect to particular persons at death, and with respect to the whole church at the end of the world, while charity shall still remain in heaven, and there the Spirit of God shall be poured forth and manifested in perfect love in every heart to all eternity.​

You never said you were only limiting your historical search for the canon theory with specific references to 1 Cor 13:10. John Owen makes no specific reference to that verse, but he is clearly alluding to it by his repeated use of the word perfect. He clearly attributes the cessation of prophecy to the completion of the canon.

John Owen - A Discourse concerning the Holy Spirit (1676). p80, p334, p590
Since the finishing of the canon of the Scripture, the church is not under that conduct as to stand in need of such new extraordinary revelations. It doth, indeed, live upon the internal gracious operations of the Spirit, enabling us to understand, believe, and obey the perfect, complete revelation of the will of God already made; but new revelations it hath neither need nor use of; — and to suppose them, or a necessity of them, not only overthrows the perfection of the Scripture, but also leaveth us uncertain whether we know all that is to be believed in order unto salvation, or our whole duty, or when we may do so; for it would be our duty to live all our days in expectation of new revelations, wherewith neither peace, assurance, nor consolation is consistent.
...
But as this gift has now ceased under the New Testament, after the finishing of the canon of Scripture; nor was it by any pretended to, so was it limited of old to a very few inspired people, and plays no part in our present inquiry.
...
And this direction manifests that the gift was extraordinary, and is now ceased; though there be a continuance of ordinary gifts of the same kind, and to the same end in the church, as we shall see afterwards, ver. 30.​

Let's see, it was almost 4.45 am that I decided to end my all nighter (it happens on the occasion), where I earlier decided to jump onto the forum as a bit of a breather from the research that I am doing on to teleion. Then, as I was heading off to sleep, I saw the alert regarding your post, where I decided to check it out and to keep it brief, I discovered to my horror that the commentary that I was referring to by John Owen was different to the edition (and publisher) that you were quoting. How frustrating!!! This means that I now have to find out which of his works are considered to be authoritative, though the shorter edition that I referred to is probably the least likely.

With the second commentator, it's material such as that of Edwards that I find highly invaluable and his work has of course been adopted by various other scholars and commentators even up until our current time period. I will be endeavoring to find out if his work is original or if he has followed on from the work of others. When it comes to the work of Own and Edwards, as their works are hardly ever referred to in my circles then I essentially know nothing of them.

In addition, it seems that I referred to you as a source of some information where instead it was Major1 - or maybe it was the other way around.

You never said you were only limiting your historical search for the canon theory with specific references to 1 Cor 13:10. John Owen makes no specific reference to that verse, but he is clearly alluding to it by his repeated use of the word perfect. He clearly attributes the cessation of prophecy to the completion of the canon.

Without checking through the thread, I would have thought that I specified that my paper addressed the question of the history of the to teleion of 1 Cor 13:10 on many occasions, which is the title that I use when I refer to it?

My initial investigations were centered on the Canon theory but as there are numerous cessationist commentators who have rejected this viewpoint for that of the maturity of the Church, this has compelled me to differentiate between the two.

Now it's 6am . . .

 

[Biblicist]

Cessationism
The classic work is B. B. Warfield, Counterfeit Miracles (New York: Charles Scribners, 1918).

• Edgar, Thomas R. Miraculous Gifts: Are They for Today? (Neptune, N.J.: Loizeaux Brothers, 1983).

• David Farnell, F. David. "The New Testament Prophetic Gift: Its Nature and Duration." ThD Dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1990.

• Gaffin, Richard B., Jr., Perspectives on Pentecost: Studies in New Testament Teaching on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979).

• Gardiner, G. E. The Corinthian Catastrophe. Grand Rapids: Kregel Publica¬tions, 1974.

• Geisler, Norman L. Signs and Wonders. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House, 1988.

• Gentry, K. L. The Charismatic Gift of Prophecy─A Reformed Response to Wayne Grudem Memphis: Footstool Publications, 1989.

• Gromacki, Robert G. The Modern Tongues Movement. Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1976.

• Hoekema, Anthony. What About Tongues Speaking? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1966.

• MacArthur, John. Charismatic Chaos, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992).

• Poythress, Vern. "Affirming modern extraordinary works of the Spirit in the context of cessationist theology". Evangelical Theological Society papers, 1993. ETS-4511.

• Robertson, O. Palmer. The Final Word, (Edinburgh : Banner of Truth Trust, 1993) — this includes a critique of Wayne Grudem's position regarding prophecy.

• White, R. Fowler. “Richard Gaffin and Wayne Grudem: A Comparison of Cessationist and Noncessationist Argumentation.” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 35, no. 2 (June 1992): 173-81.

Thank you.
At this point of time I am trying to still source about four of the above list, out of a shrinking list of 30, where I even have a copy of MacArthur's rare book The Charismatics (1978).

I currently have 237 commentators who support the traditional view that to teleion refers to the Parousia, with an additional 18 subsequent commentaries by these individuals. I have only sourced about a dozen that refer specifically to the Canon view where maybe another dozen refer to the Maturity view of the Church. Some of these latter commentators who promote the Maturity view stand quite strongly against their fellow cessationists who promote the Canon viewpoint.

Now its 6.10am . . . . . .

 

[Major1]

It seems that you would be well advised to check the sources before you post them, where you then claim that they say things that they do not, for example:

• Jonathan Edwards - Charity and its Fruits (1738)

If you go to pages 304-05 you will discover that he considers 'the perfect' to refer to our future state in heaven.​

• John Owen - A Discourse concerning the Holy Spirit (1676)

At this point of time, I am struggling to find a reference to the perfect by John Owen. His work on pages 474-486 titled The Original, duration, use, and end, of extraordinary spiritual gifts provides no reference to 1 Cor 13:10 at all.
​

There are a number of commentators from the post-Reformation up until the end of the 19th century who do not 'appear' to make any reference to 1 Cor 13:10 as support for the supposed cessation of the Manifestations of the Spirit. These commentators have made the task of describing their work rather difficult, but it is another task that I have to complete before my paper can be distributed.

Dr. Peter McMasters
Cessationism | Charismatic Gifts | What is Cessationism? | Proving that Charismatic Gifts have ceased - Metropolitan Tabernacle

"Not only has revelation been completed and ceased, but so have the signs that revelation is in progress. Here is a brief summary of six biblical proofs that the revelatory gifts have ceased (visions, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, and prophecies), and also the sign-gifts (healings and speaking in tongues). God still heals, of course, but in answer to prayer, and not through the hands of a gifted healer."

From..........
https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj14j.pdf
Richard L. Mayhue
Senior Vice President and Dean
Professor of Theology and Pastoral Ministries

The following works, in whole or in part, develop the historical discussion, evidence, exegesis, and
theological discourse that lead to the cessationist view.

Walter J. Chantry, Signs of the Apostles:
Observations on Pentecostalism Old and New, 2d ed. (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1976);

Thomas R. Edgar, Miraculous Gifts: Are They For Today? (Neptune, N.J.: Loizeaux, 1983);

John F. MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992);

Richard Mayhue, The Healing Promise (Fearn,
Ross-shire, Great Britain: Christian Focus, 1997) 175-85;

Robert L. Thomas, Understanding Spiritual
Gifts, rev. ed. (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999) 154-204;

B. B. Warfield, Counterfeit Miracles, 1918 reprint
(Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1972).

 

[Major1]

Thank you.
At this point of time I am trying to still source about four of the above list, out of a shrinking list of 30, where I even have a copy of MacArthur's rare book The Charismatics (1978).

I currently have 237 commentators who support the traditional view that to teleion refers to the Parousia, with an additional 18 subsequent commentaries by these individuals. I have only sourced about a dozen that refer specifically to the Canon view where maybe another dozen refer to the Maturity view of the Church. Some of these latter commentators who promote the Maturity view stand quite strongly against their fellow cessationists who promote the Canon viewpoint.

Now its 6.10am . . . . . .

Blessing to you. I have a job and go to work every day so it is impossible for me to keep those kinds of hours.

Now, my opinion is really very simple. IMO, the Pentecostal Charismatic's today want to see, and feel with the same kind of excitement and movement that was evident during the days of the 1st church.

Miracles, tongues, people raised from the dead and so on. To do so they have abopted the teaching of CONTINUASIM of the sign gifts. By doing so they can claim that what they are doing is what the Bible says that they can do and should do.

However, the charismatic idea that healings were performed by numerous Christians is simply not to be found in the New Testament. Only the apostles are recorded as having healed, together with two apostolic assistants or delegates, Stephen and Philip, and possibly Barnabas.

The only time someone outside this group performed a healing was when the Lord told Ananias to heal Paul. There is no other healing apart from these in the early church.

The Pentecostal/charismatic idea that healings took place constantly by Christians at large is not taught in the Bible. Thus the infallible record of Scripture shows the entire charismatic approach to healing to be a mistake based on a myth. The record proves that the healings and mighty deeds were restricted to a class of people who have passed away.
Cessationism | Charismatic Gifts | What is Cessationism? | Proving that Charismatic Gifts have ceased - Metropolitan Tabernacle

 

[Major1]

Thank you.
At this point of time I am trying to still source about four of the above list, out of a shrinking list of 30, where I even have a copy of MacArthur's rare book The Charismatics (1978).

I currently have 237 commentators who support the traditional view that to teleion refers to the Parousia, with an additional 18 subsequent commentaries by these individuals. I have only sourced about a dozen that refer specifically to the Canon view where maybe another dozen refer to the Maturity view of the Church. Some of these latter commentators who promote the Maturity view stand quite strongly against their fellow cessationists who promote the Canon viewpoint.

Now its 6.10am . . . . . .

IMO opinion only, I believe that the reason why there was not a whole lot of material produced on the teaching of CESSATION of the sign gifts is that it was not needed.

That the ceasing of revelatory and sign-gifts in the time of the apostles is very plainly taught in God’s Word, so plainly, in fact, that the opposite view os Cessationalism has only seriously appeared in the last 100 years or so as the Pentecostal Charismatic denomination has grown.

 

[tdidymas]

#1

They go to a Pentecostal church, hear others speak in tongues, and want it too for whatever reason. But the problem is they still haven't repented of all sin, and been baptized with the Holy Spirit. You must be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be able to speak in true tongues.

I spent 20 years in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, so I don't need an education about what they teach there. Would you please answer my questions clearly?

1. When you say "mimic" do you mean consciously or unconsciously? Is the person who mimics tongues doing it purposely and consciously?

2. Can a person unconsciously (without trying) mimic tongues (without knowing they are)?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

IMO opinion only, I believe that the reason why there was not a whole lot of material produced on the teaching of CESSATION of the sign gifts is that it was not needed.

That the ceasing of revelatory and sign-gifts in the time of the apostles is very plainly taught in God’s Word, so plainly, in fact, that the opposite view os Cessationalism has only seriously appeared in the last 100 years or so as the Pentecostal Charismatic denomination has grown.

the opposite view os Cessationalism

you mean "continuationism"?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Blessing to you. I have a job and go to work every day so it is impossible for me to keep those kinds of hours.

Now, my opinion is really very simple. IMO, the Pentecostal Charismatic's today want to see, and feel with the same kind of excitement and movement that was evident during the days of the 1st church.

Miracles, tongues, people raised from the dead and so on. To do so they have abopted the teaching of CONTINUASIM of the sign gifts. By doing so they can claim that what they are doing is what the Bible says that they can do and should do.

However, the charismatic idea that healings were performed by numerous Christians is simply not to be found in the New Testament. Only the apostles are recorded as having healed, together with two apostolic assistants or delegates, Stephen and Philip, and possibly Barnabas.

The only time someone outside this group performed a healing was when the Lord told Ananias to heal Paul. There is no other healing apart from these in the early church.

The Pentecostal/charismatic idea that healings took place constantly by Christians at large is not taught in the Bible. Thus the infallible record of Scripture shows the entire charismatic approach to healing to be a mistake based on a myth. The record proves that the healings and mighty deeds were restricted to a class of people who have passed away.
Cessationism | Charismatic Gifts | What is Cessationism? | Proving that Charismatic Gifts have ceased - Metropolitan Tabernacle

Major, I'm just curious about your stand on prophecy. Certainly there is no more new revelation, but that wasn't the only function of prophets throughout the Bible. They were also preachers of the revealed word of God, and in 1 Cor. 12-14 it appears to me that it was also for encouragement and exhortation of the church. It doesn't have to be new revelation, so I'd just like to know if you think that the gift of prophecy is (in some way) still in operation?

I say this because I'm reminded of John Huss when he was about to be burned at the stake in the 14th Century, he said to the presiding bishop: "You may burn this goose, but after me will come a swan that you will not be able to silence." 150 years later, Martin Luther was regarded as the "swan" who fulfilled that prophecy, and is still regarded so today in Germany.

And just wondering if you think that was a prophecy, or just a "lucky guess." (don't get me being hostile here, I'm not).
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I do not know who you are asking? But IMO .......

1. Yes. The one faking tongues is doing consciously because they want.
2. I do not see how.

It was a reply to 1stcenturylady.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I spent 20 years in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, so I don't need an education about what they teach there. Would you please answer my questions clearly?

1. When you say "mimic" do you mean consciously or unconsciously? Is the person who mimics tongues doing it purposely and consciously?

2. Can a person unconsciously (without trying) mimic tongues (without knowing they are)?
TD

I already said #1

They don't have the gift, but they hear others and try to repeat what they hear, truly believing that is speaking in tongues, but it isn't. I can tell when someone is doing this, haven't you? But I can also tell when someone has the true gift. So is that conscious, or unconscious?

 

[1stcenturylady]

It was a reply to 1stcenturylady.

He's got me on ignore, so he can't see it was me.

 

[Fidelibus]

The Church is the pillar, but the Church is only based on what Jesus said, and what the Apostles said who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

1stcenturylady, I couldn't help but notice, you start off quoting part of 1Tim.3:16 by saying "The Church is the pillar." Then you go directly to a "but". However, as you can see by the full passage that I've posted below, there is no "but" in the verse. It does say though that the Church (singluar) is "the pillar and ground of the truth." You left out the truth part.

1 Tim. 3:15: " But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

All who believe what is written or quoted by them, is THE CHURCH.

Okay...... and what Church do you think was "THE CHURCH" fifteen hundred years prior to the Reformation?

Not the Roman Catholic Church who claims they are the only church and claims they have a right to add holy traditions

Okay, let me ask you something, in Acts 20:35, Paul says: "In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Can you show me anywhere in the bible Jesus said "It is more blessed to give than to receive?" If you cannot, would you agree this is a good example of an oral teaching of Jesus being handed on to Paul,who hands it down to us.

Or.... how bout Matt. 2:23: "And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene." Can you show where the prophecy "he shall be called a Nazarene" is written anywhere in the Bible?

And how would you explain 2Tim. 3:14 where Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings....the traditions.....that he received from the apostle Paul? Or on 1Tim.113-14 where Paul echoes the reminder of the value of oral tradition where he say's.... "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have "heard from me", in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us", and "what you have "heard from me" before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13).---------(with help from Catholic.com)

so they can worship Mary which is NO WHERE in scripture - THE CHURCH of Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry, but whenever I see this nonsence of Catholics worshipping Mary, the credibilty of the person stating it goes right down the toilet when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. If this were true, don't ya think it might be in official documentation of the Catholic Church..... like the Catechism?

We Catholics believe that worship is due to God alone. We do, however, venerate Mary. In other words, we honor our Blessed Mother with great reverence and devotion because she is the Mother of God. Do you think Jesus loved His Mother Mary? We sure do, sooooooo.... if Jesus loved her, we should too. But one thing you can be assured..... We can never love Mary more than Jesus did.

What the Roman Catholic Church adheres to which is in scripture is not where we have a problem. They have made Mary an idol. Jesus is the ONLY mediator between us and God, not dead Christians or relatives.

If you think praying to a Saint for their intercession is praying to a dead person, you better read your bible a little closer. For Jesus taught us in Matt. 22:23-28..... "That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 "Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"

And in Matt.22:29-32 it say's....."Jesus replied, You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Now, if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob........ then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive ("for to him all [in heaven] are alive") !

(with help from www.biblicalcatholic.com)

So 1stcenturylady, I'll ask you the same question asked of other posters which have yet to answer.

"if you were to disagree with any non-Catholic poster/posters on any certain bible passage, and you all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit in your own interpretation? You agree the Holy Spirit is incapable of error.... correct? So, who would be in error, you... them? And by what or who's authority determines it?

Have a Blessed Lenten Season