1stcenturylady, I couldn't help but notice, you start off quoting part of 1Tim.3:16 by saying "The Church is the pillar." Then you go directly to a "but". However, as you can see by the full passage that I've posted below, there is no "but" in the verse. It does say though that the Church (singluar) is "the pillar and ground of the truth." You left out the truth part.
Okay...... and what Church do you think was "THE CHURCH" fifteen hundred years prior to the Reformation?
Okay, let me ask you something, in Acts 20:35, Paul says: "In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Can you show me anywhere in the bible Jesus said "It is more blessed to give than to receive?" If you cannot, would you agree this is a good example of an oral teaching of Jesus being handed on to Paul,who hands it down to us.
Or.... how bout Matt. 2:23: "And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene." Can you show where the prophecy "he shall be called a Nazarene" is written anywhere in the Bible?
And how would you explain 2Tim. 3:14 where Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings....the traditions.....that he received from the apostle Paul? Or on 1Tim.113-14 where Paul echoes the reminder of the value of oral tradition where he say's.... "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have "heard from me", in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us", and "what you have "heard from me" before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13).---------(with help from Catholic.com)
I'm sorry, but whenever I see this nonsence of Catholics worshipping Mary, the credibilty of the person stating it goes right down the toilet when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. If this were true, don't ya think it might be in official documentation of the Catholic Church..... like the Catechism?
We Catholics believe that worship is due to God alone. We do, however, venerate Mary. In other words, we honor our Blessed Mother with great reverence and devotion because she is the Mother of God. Do you think Jesus loved His Mother Mary? We sure do, sooooooo.... if Jesus loved her, we should too. But one thing you can be assured..... We can never love Mary more than Jesus did.
If you think praying to a Saint for their intercession is praying to a dead person, you better read your bible a little closer. For Jesus taught us in Matt. 22:23-28..... "That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 "Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
And in Matt.22:29-32 it say's....."Jesus replied, You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Now, if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob........ then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive ("for to him all [in heaven] are alive") !
(with help from
www.biblicalcatholic.com)
So 1stcenturylady, I'll ask you the same question asked of other posters which have yet to answer.
"if you were to disagree with any non-Catholic poster/posters on any certain bible passage, and you all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit in your own interpretation? You agree the Holy Spirit is incapable of error.... correct? So, who would be in error, you... them? And by what or who's authority determines it?
Have a Blessed Lenten Season
This will be long with all your questions.
Okay...... and what Church do you think was "THE CHURCH" fifteen hundred years prior to the Reformation?
The ancient Church was always headed by a desposyni - a relative of Jesus. James, the brother of Jesus was the first head of the Church in Antioch. (Never Peter) The next was Symeon, another relative of Jesus, and so on. (Please note these relatives were NOT
direct descendants of Jesus and Mary Magdalene - a made up story like a tradition and a heresy; they were brothers, uncles, cousins and the like from the line of David through Joseph) After a few hundred years there were two branches of the Church running side by side. The true one from the beginning of the desposynus. And later the other was the start of the Roman Church which compromised the Church with some pagan practices to prevent culture shock when Christianity became the state religion and paganism was outlawed. It was at this time that the ornate pagan temples were turned into church buildings, the first buildings. Also, the attire of the pagan temple priests was adopted - robes and head ware, whereas the desponsyni wore humble attire. The desposyni Church was made up of small groups in many homes, intimate and brought with it accountability and love towards one another; or in the catacombs until Domitian put a stop to the persecution of the Church because of the desposyni's explanation of the Kingdom of God not being of this world.
Or.... how bout Matt. 2:23: "And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene." Can you show where the prophecy "he shall be called a Nazarene" is written anywhere in the Bible?
Isaiah 11:1 (Branch is Nezer in Hebrew, where we get Nazarene)
11 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a
Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.
Okay, let me ask you something, in Acts 20:35, Paul says: "In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Can you show me anywhere in the bible Jesus said "It is more blessed to give than to receive?" If you cannot, would you agree this is a good example of an oral teaching of Jesus being handed on to Paul,who hands it down to us.
Not everything Jesus said or taught is accounted for in the four gospels. It wouldn't take us three years to read what is written. So Paul is providing another gem that Jesus actually said, but was never recorded before then. But we have it now. Praise God.
And how would you explain 2Tim. 3:14 where Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings....the traditions.....that he received from the apostle Paul? Or on 1Tim.113-14 where Paul echoes the reminder of the value of oral tradition where he say's.... "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have "heard from me", in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us", and "what you have "heard from me" before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13).---------(with help from Catholic.com)
Timothy was like a son to Paul and they TALKED. Paul was also his teacher of the gospel and spent much time with him. Talk is oral. What's the problem. The oral tradition was the gospel. You do know that Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ don't you, and well before the fairy tales that turned into holy traditions, but have no truth to them. Just stick to the Word of God, and don't add to it uninspired by God stories and theories about the mother of Jesus. The GOSPEL is about Jesus, not His mother. To do so, is a direct copy of the pagan goddess and child mystery religion of Babylon. They have superimposed Mary onto Semiramus, the first pagan High Priestess, a little more than 400 years after the flood, with Jesus superimposed over Tamuz her son. In that mystery religion the mother has a higher respect and reverence than the son. Every different pagan country had a different goddess and son they worshiped. I can give you a list if you give me time. Trying to sanitize this pagan corruption my copying it with Mary as the "Queen of Heaven," a pagan title.
Jeremiah 44
44 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews who dwell in the land of Egypt, who dwell at Migdol, at Tahpanhes, at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying, 2 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘You have seen all the calamity that I have brought on Jerusalem and on all the cities of Judah; and behold, this day they
are a desolation, and no one dwells in them, 3 because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke Me to anger, in that they went to burn incense
and to serve other gods whom they did not know, they nor you nor your fathers. 4 However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending
them, saying, “Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!” 5 But they did not listen or incline their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense to other gods. 6 So My fury and My anger were poured out and kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are wasted
and desolate, as it is this day.’
7 “Now therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Why do you commit
this great evil against yourselves, to cut off from you man and woman, child and infant, out of Judah, leaving none to remain, 8 in that you provoke Me to wrath with the works of your hands, burning incense to
other gods in the land of Egypt where you have gone to dwell, that you may cut yourselves off and be a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth? 9 Have you forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, the wickedness of the kings of Judah, the wickedness of their wives, your own wickedness, and the wickedness of your wives, which they committed in the land of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 10 They have not been humbled, to this day, nor have they feared; they have not walked in My law or in My statutes that I set before you and your fathers.’
11 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will set My face against you for catastrophe and for cutting off all Judah. 12 And I will take the remnant of Judah who have set their faces to go into the land of Egypt to dwell there, and they shall all be consumed
and fall in the land of Egypt. They shall be consumed by the sword
and by famine. They shall die, from the least to the greatest, by the sword and by famine; and they shall be an oath, an astonishment, a curse and a reproach! 13 For I will punish those who dwell in the land of Egypt, as I have punished Jerusalem, by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence, 14 so that none of the remnant of Judah who have gone into the land of Egypt to dwell there shall escape or survive, lest they return to the land of Judah, to which they desire to return and dwell. For none shall return except those who escape.’”
15 Then all the men who knew that their wives had burned incense to other gods, with all the women who stood by, a great multitude, and all the people who dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying: 16 “
As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not listen to you! 17 But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the
queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For
then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. 18 But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.”
19
The women also said, “And when we burned incense to the
queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’
permission?”
20 Then Jeremiah spoke to all the people—the men, the women, and all the people who had given him
that answer—saying: 21 “The incense that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and did it
not come into His mind? 22 So the Lord could no longer bear
it, because of the evil of your doings
and because of the abominations which you committed. Therefore your land is a desolation, an astonishment, a curse, and without an inhabitant, as
it is this day. 23 Because you have burned incense and because you have sinned against the Lord, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord or walked in His law, in His statutes or in His testimonies, therefore this calamity has happened to you, as
at this day.”
24 Moreover Jeremiah said to all the people and to all the women, “Hear the word of the Lord, all Judah who
are in the land of Egypt! 25 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the
queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’ 26 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, all Judah who dwell in the land of Egypt: ‘Behold, I have sworn by My great name,’ says the Lord, ‘that My name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, “The Lord God lives.” 27 Behold, I will watch over them for adversity and not for good. And all the men of Judah who
are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end to them. 28 Yet a small number who escape the sword shall return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah; and all the remnant of Judah, who have gone to the land of Egypt to dwell there, shall know whose words will stand, Mine or theirs. 29 And this
shall be a sign to you,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will punish you in this place, that you may know that My words will surely stand against you for adversity.’
30 “Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will give Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies and into the hand of those who seek his life, as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of
Babylon, his enemy who sought his life.’”
I'm sorry, but whenever I see this nonsence of Catholics worshipping Mary, the credibilty of the person stating it goes right down the toilet when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. If this were true, don't ya think it might be in official documentation of the Catholic Church..... like the Catechism?
Do you pray the rosary? That is worship. Do you call MARY—
CO-
REDEMPTRIX AND
MEDIATRIX. OF
ALL GRACE? Do you call her QUEEN OF HEAVEN?
