Demonizing those who switch Churches

[Archivist]

Yes I feel that way too but I have little choice; there's Catholic, Lutheran, tongue-speaking Charismatics (where my son went) and this Baptist Church. I want to stay in my church but I cannot condone him demonizing people, especially my son. There's more to why my son left but he left honorably and his first love is still Jesus; being demonized separates him (a disabled young adults) from all the young adults in his contact circle for the last several years. It separates me from all those I've grown to love if I leave ... and leaves me with an unappealing choice of alternatives. Thanks for your answer though.

Your pastor is wrong. I agree with Albion, this is more like what you would hear in a cult. I would not walk away from this church, I would run.

BTW, some of us don't have any qualms with being Lutheran.

 

[Blade]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then called for our church to shun contact with those who leave our church. My son recently left our church to be with his fiance at her Charismatic Church, with her family. It was a difficult choice but the right one for him and his intended. I have been crying for days over what my pastor said; and, I have not gone to church since. I will follow Matthew 18:15 but I am horrified at the thought that he might not recant what he said (humility and the ability to admit a mistake aren't like him). I am searching for truth and resolution in this devastating circumstance. I believe my pastor abused his authority out of his own hurt pride. Did he abuse his authority? How can what he said be biblical? Any scripturally based help would be greatly appreciated.

Forgive me but why are you posting this here? Well we only hear ONE side of this. Go to the pastor or if you believe he is in error.. pray for him.. forgive him. And find a new church.

 

[gideon123]

I would never stay in a church where the pastor said that. Deeply disappointing, and can lead to abuse.

 

[Dhebi]

Of course, I do not really know him; so I need to not jump to conclusions about him. But in my case I have been a very love-stupid person; I could do things wrong and be totally convinced I was right and by God's word and very smart . . . but so love-stupid ! !

How much is he talking about how we become because of Jesus growing in us as our new inner Person? > Galatians 4:19 < how much has he obviously ministered this to you??? We need our people who are our role models and who have power of

prayer

example

obedience

so they minister for us to become more like Christ, and develop in how we relate with God and please Him and submit to how He rules each of us in His very own peace > Colossians 3:15. And discover how He has us relating as family with one another >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And loving any and all people. In my opinion, "only", I would say that whoever ministers this to people is the real pastor of a church. Possibly, the one up front is not this person

Do you have a home group with people who help one another to grow and live in Jesus?

We all together can be "speaking the truth in love," so that we "may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head---Christ---" (in Ephesians 4:15)

So, is he doing this and having others also ministering with one another for this?

Or, what does he emphasize?



And it is good not to allow a wrong person to have power over you to get you the wrong way.

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (in James 1:19-20)

You be his example!!!

Thank you so much for your encouragement and scriptual references. For 5 years we've been on Genesis (Wednesdays) and Proverbs (Sunday nights) with Sunday mornings being what the pastor calls the "hard preaching" we all need and other pastors are too weak to preach. He is not one to preach on love, he's truly a "tinkling cymbal" on the subject. He'll stand there and tell us that talking about love is misguided (part of why my son left - he kept saying Jesus was not his buddy, which ... ok the word buddy isn't in the bible but the word love is pretty hard to overlook in the New Testament) .. I know we've been growing in Christ and I've felt it was in spite of our pastor sometimes. But he's human ... and the term "love stupid" seems to fit. But I feel a commitment to our church still. It's my lampstand. I am going to follow Matthew 18:15 tomorrow, and 16 if I have to. I will share the result. Once again many thanks.

Forgive me but why are you posting this here? Well we only hear ONE side of this. Go to the pastor or if you believe he is in error.. pray for him.. forgive him. And find a new church.

Of course, I do not really know him; so I need to not jump to conclusions about him. But in my case I have been a very love-stupid person; I could do things wrong and be totally convinced I was right and by God's word and very smart . . . but so love-stupid ! !

How much is he talking about how we become because of Jesus growing in us as our new inner Person? > Galatians 4:19 < how much has he obviously ministered this to you??? We need our people who are our role models and who have power of

prayer

example

obedience

so they minister for us to become more like Christ, and develop in how we relate with God and please Him and submit to how He rules each of us in His very own peace > Colossians 3:15. And discover how He has us relating as family with one another >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And loving any and all people. In my opinion, "only", I would say that whoever ministers this to people is the real pastor of a church. Possibly, the one up front is not this person

Do you have a home group with people who help one another to grow and live in Jesus?

We all together can be "speaking the truth in love," so that we "may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head---Christ---" (in Ephesians 4:15)

So, is he doing this and having others also ministering with one another for this?

Or, what does he emphasize?



And it is good not to allow a wrong person to have power over you to get you the wrong way.

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (in James 1:19-20)

You be his example!!!

 

[Dhebi]

Forgive me but why are you posting this here? Well we only hear ONE side of this. Go to the pastor or if you believe he is in error.. pray for him.. forgive him. And find a new church.

I literally quoted what our pastor said in introducing the Lord's Supper (I have it on tape). I posted it here because I literally don't want to be a "whisperer", this is anonymous, and I need Christians to talk to about this. It is a very serious situation to me. This church is my Lampstand ... I was looking for advice. It goes without saying that prayer and foregiveness are essential to what I do ... and believe me they have been at the front of my focus. I have also been praying that I won't end up leaving this church ... yet knowing that if this is abuse, I cannot sanction it by staying.

 

[Hermit76]

I am 41 and still dealing with the damage that the Independent Baptist type (we were Southern Baptists that identified more with Independents) shaming did to me in my youth. Don't expect any closure to come out of this meeting with the pastor. It is painful but if you stay you will continue to be hurt, especially now that the pastor will probably mark you as being rebellious.
Go to the Lutheran or Catholic Church for a while and just sit and listen. You don't have to participate and join, but you do need a time of healing.
Do you have younger children? If so get them out now to minimize their damage.

 

[GingerBeer]

I have an appointment with him on Friday. He is not a humble guy and he doesn't admit mistakes specifically but just generically and often refers to mistakes he made with people who left. And, he complains in sermons that people don't tell him why they leave. So, I am going to confront him in all the humility and agape I can muster and I am praying he recants. I so want to stay ... I am searching for biblical support for what he said as well as my position. This is all very painful but it cannot separate me from my love of Christ. Thankyou for your reply.

If you confront him then do it with facts and evidence that you have memorised and if necessary documented. Be dispassionate and factual. Do not add to or embellish the facts and do not offer explanations for the facts just present them and when the time comes present your intentions based on the facts. It doesn't help to stray from facts into emotional responses even when the emotion is labelled "agape". Be careful and do not think of Lutherans, Catholics, and tongues-speaking Charismatics as a worse choice than your current Baptist church.

 

[VexingWitness]

Talk to God, then talk to him. Don't be afraid. He's only human, just like the rest of us. Everything we do, we do through the lens of our own vanity. Be nice. Be understanding. Be like Jesus. Hate actions, not people. If he doesn't listen to you, then see if there are others in your church who feel like you do. Go to him, together. And be prepared to point out, scripturally, where he went wrong.

 

[com7fy8]

he kept saying Jesus was not his buddy,

"Buddy" can be a little . . . something. Jesus rebukes and chastens whom He loves, as I would say you know. But John could rest his head on Jesus' bosom.

And it says to taste and see how good the LORD is. Tasting is pretty personal. I'll bet your pastor might not want anyone coming up to taste him during a sermon. But enough of us also might feel that would be a little bit improper.

But God Himself . . . is ok with us tasting Him!

But there is almighty power in His love.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

And the grace of this almighty love cures our nature so we become more and more naturally immune to any sort of evil and trouble in our spiritual minds and hearts > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7)

And so, if God has you stay there, He is able to deeply and truly correct us to be more and more peace-natured, not only stopping certain wrong behavior and habits.

We do need hard preaching against what is sin, but also discover where our Heavenly Father's correction brings us > to "become partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness" > Hebrews 12:4-11. Love, then, means how God desires to have us sharing with Him in His own holiness which is of His love, not only of outward legalistic standards and goody-goody two-shoes preppy poopy comparing ourselves with other people.

But how do we compare with Jesus? Therefore, we answer to You, O God, and not only to how we might compare ourselves with a wrong pastor.

Dhebi, I am encouraged by your attitude. I have the impression that you can with God do His good where you are. But I do think you will do well to find people, there if they are there, plus elsewhere, who help you get real correction of His love's perfection . . . more and more as we grow in this >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And with anyone who is impossible, embrace this as your opportunity to more maturely develop in how to love any and all people, plus you be the person's example. I had a problem with a man in our church; he seemed to be treating me like a peon. And it got to me . . . for a while. But I could see I was not sweetly and kindly loving him the way Jesus wants; so I kept praying for how God would have His way with me.

And what worked pretty well was I would start to get nasty while thinking of the guy, but then it would come that God wants to correct me so I am loving him and caring for him and praying God's own blessing to him. And I would get into this, and it would come that I needed to go to him and stuff my good example in his face, meaning to welcome seeing him, smile at him, and be encouraging in my spirit . . . with an attitude of encouraging how he needed to become humble and not trying to lord himself over me or others.

After a while, he treated me better and in group said he had been abusing people. But he did not stay. So, it is possible he was not really changing the way maybe he needed to. But I visited him and his wife and we had a good time, and we did talk about some real things, not only being superficial. So, possibly he has grown elsewhere.

If a person has been abusive and lording over others and then decides he has been wrong, still the person's character might not change, right away to being all the way perfect in God's love. Isn't this true of you and me? So, we can feel for him and understand him, from how we ourselves have failed and been in denial however >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

I could say find out who he trusts, and who can see through him and correct him. But I maybe have seen in my church how a person can trust people who are more like he is, and so he might not get real correction.

A leader who admits how he is wrong, might also go too far the love way, by saying oh God never gives up on me while I mess up, and expect others to get the drift that they are not supposed to criticize how he is wrong and expect real change.

But grace is almighty to effect our nature and bring self control of the Holy Spirit's fruit > fruit is sweet and gentle and tasty and nutritious. Self control, then, of the Holy Spirit's fruit, is not only feeling guilty and negative about how we have failed, and not only reforming outward stuff, and trying to use methods to control our own selves. But with Jesus and real correction, of His love's perfection, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, we have our own homework to do, then, don't we?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

sounds like cult talk to me..

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus leads His sheep. Not everyone in a church is a sheep.

 

[Albion]

I've thought some more about this now, and the fact that 1) the remarks were made in preparation for the Lord's Supper, and also that 2) he said what he did about Jesus not being our buddy, may mean that he was trying to get at some point other than a condemnation of switching congregations. I am interested to learn how the meeting with the pastor went, therefore.

 

[Deadworm]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think you need to approach your pastor from the perspective that you are sharing your reasons for leaving his church. His toxic judgmentalism is a far greater reason to disassociate yourself from his church than your minor doctrinal differences with the fiancé's charismatic church or, for that matter, your other church alternatives. The Bible teaches that we must sometimes demonstrate confrontational tough love and your situation is a textbook situation for this task. I would boldly stress these 3 points to your pastor:

(1) The shunning implied in Matthew 18:15-20 applies to a member who "sins against you" and your son's choice, far from a sin, is simply pursuing the best interests of his imminent marriage.

(2) It is advisable for an engaged couple to attend the same church. So how should your son and his fiancé make that choice? Clearly, the spiritual atmosphere of that charismatic church facilitates a greater catalyst for your son's growth. Conversely, his fiancé evidently needs not only her church connection with family, but also her church's stress on the Person, work, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Thus, everybody gains from your son's switch to her church. Only your pastor's ego or his misplaced value of doctrinal systems would prevent him from recognizing this fact.

(3) You should also address the larger question of why some Christians leave one church for another. Ask your pastor if he is humble enough to recognize that some people leave their church because they aren't being fed spiritually. There is a wise old saying, "Who you are speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you say." Your pastor seems to have forgotten that we are saved by grace through faith, not through our acceptance of a doctrinal system or loyalty to a spiritual environment that we find toxic.
Your son's plight reminds me of a joke about a Baptist pastor who was uncharitable to rival denominations. One Sunday, he asked his congregation, "How many of you visitors are NOT Baptists?" Only an elderly woman named Mabel put up her hand. "And what are you?" he bellowed. "I'm a Methodist." He replied: "And why are you a Methodist?" "Because my parents were Methodists, and my grandparents were Methodists; so I'm a Methodist too." The Baptist pastor sneered: "That's ridiculous! Suppose I said, "My parents were morons and my grandparents were morons." What would that make me?" Mabel dryly replied: "I guess that would make you a Baptist!"

 

[friend of]

Church is the body of believers in Christ. It is not a building or facility or instutitions with man made ideas about worship.

 

[DominicBaptiste]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then called for our church to shun contact with those who leave our church. My son recently left our church to be with his fiance at her Charismatic Church, with her family. It was a difficult choice but the right one for him and his intended. I have been crying for days over what my pastor said; and, I have not gone to church since. I will follow Matthew 18:15 but I am horrified at the thought that he might not recant what he said (humility and the ability to admit a mistake aren't like him). I am searching for truth and resolution in this devastating circumstance. I believe my pastor abused his authority out of his own hurt pride. Did he abuse his authority? How can what he said be biblical? Any scripturally based help would be greatly appreciated.

I don't think it's a sin to leave a church. It's probably more like breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend and probably feels to him like disowning your family. Just something to think about as to why he might be saying those things. You are not married to him, which is why you are free to go, but he might feel otherwise.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan.

One of the marks of a cult is the cutting off of relations with anyone who has left the cult, even family members.

Insecure leaders can also make such hints because they are afraid that their congregation is dwindling.

Either way there is something wrong in your church. My advice is to follow the Matthew principle you mentioned and confront your pastor about it. If he doesn't change his mind, then leave and find another church, because if you don't you may find yourself gradually being cut off from any other Christian group in your local area, from family, friendships, contacts until you stay there because to leave would mean you have no friends at all.

 

[Matthew 24 10]

You need to understand churches are money making facilities nowdays . If you are Christian temple of God is inside of you not building made of stone .

 

[Albion]

Much of Christianity is corporate--the observance of the sacrament of the altar (the Lords Supper) for example. How people who hold themselves apart from other Christians, from worship services, etc. can think they are functioning in accordance with Christ's express instructions and the New Testament record of the religious lives of the first Christians has always escaped me.

 

[quidam65]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then called for our church to shun contact with those who leave our church. My son recently left our church to be with his fiance at her Charismatic Church, with her family. It was a difficult choice but the right one for him and his intended. I have been crying for days over what my pastor said; and, I have not gone to church since. I will follow Matthew 18:15 but I am horrified at the thought that he might not recant what he said (humility and the ability to admit a mistake aren't like him). I am searching for truth and resolution in this devastating circumstance. I believe my pastor abused his authority out of his own hurt pride. Did he abuse his authority? How can what he said be biblical? Any scripturally based help would be greatly appreciated.

The only way I could see this being right is if a member decided to leave and change churches in lieu of real church discipline of some sorts. Or if they were going to a cult like LDS, SDA, JW, or something like that.

But just because people (like your son) decide to change churches voluntarily, that appears to be abusive. If anything he may be LEAVING a quasi-cult group.

Sadly, something tells me that if you stuck around, he would come after you next for being a "bad father" (for not keeping your son in his church). I would suggest telling that pastor that you're terminating your membership. Then look elsewhere. (PS--Charismatic churches may take some getting used to, but unless it's an extremist one, there are a lot of people who go there and don't speak in tongues or do the other stuff. They're usually pretty solid otherwise; Biblical inerrancy is NOT usually a problem with them. So maybe you should join your son and his fiancé.)

 

[straykat]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The spirit of Jezebel was once upon in the Catholic church. This spirit, to control and to dominate, can reside in any of the Christian congregations. I believe it is the beginning of worse things to come and can lead to actual violence against people.

An... interesting theory. But I'm not sure what Jezebel has to do with Catholicism. lol. They go further than anyone with valuing consecrated (virgin) ministries. And Protestants, who are so adamant about being scriptural, seem to ignore this particular value (from both Jesus in Matt 19 or Paul in 1 Cor 7). I don't think this has ever really been their problem. It's their centralized authority (papacy) that makes them so difficult to work with for others.


Anyways, I'm sorry for the OP. That Pastor just lives in a small world (of both space and time).