Demonizing those who switch Churches

[Dhebi]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then called for our church to shun contact with those who leave our church. My son recently left our church to be with his fiance at her Charismatic Church, with her family. It was a difficult choice but the right one for him and his intended. I have been crying for days over what my pastor said; and, I have not gone to church since. I will follow Matthew 18:15 but I am horrified at the thought that he might not recant what he said (humility and the ability to admit a mistake aren't like him). I am searching for truth and resolution in this devastating circumstance. I believe my pastor abused his authority out of his own hurt pride. Did he abuse his authority? How can what he said be biblical? Any scripturally based help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The spirit of Jezebel was once upon in the Catholic church. This spirit, to control and to dominate, can reside in any of the Christian congregations. I believe it is the beginning of worse things to come and can lead to actual violence against people.

 

[FireDragon76]

That religious environment sounds like its full of spiritual abuse. Nobody has the right to manipulate somebody else like that.

I wouldn't even put up with a pastor who talked like that about people he disagreed with, I would just leave.

 

[Dhebi]

That religious environment sounds like its full of spiritual abuse. Nobody has the right to manipulate somebody else like that.

I wouldn't even put up with a pasto talked like that about people he disagreed with, I would just leave.

Yes I feel that way too but I have little choice; there's Catholic, Lutheran, tongue-speaking Charismatics (where my son went) and this Baptist Church. I want to stay in my church but I cannot condone him demonizing people, especially my son. There's more to why my son left but he left honorably and his first love is still Jesus; being demonized separates him (a disabled young adults) from all the young adults in his contact circle for the last several years. It separates me from all those I've grown to love if I leave ... and leaves me with an unappealing choice of alternatives. Thanks for your answer though.

 

[com7fy8]

still working on this . . . please check back

 

[com7fy8]

Our Apostle Peter is clear how leaders are to operate >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, if a man is not leading by good example, I would say we are obligated to get with a pastor who meets the qualifications which our Apostle Paul has provided > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And if ones shun you because of evil orders, they will answer to God.

And in case your church associates with other churches, you can first ask if the leaders in your own church can correct this. And if they can not or refuse to, you can at least report this matter to someone you trust in the Lord, who is a pastor in another church of your church's fellowship.

And pray with whoever you trust and go with however you come to agreement. In case he is very wrong and people obey him by shunning you, I can't tell you those are trustworthy people. But ones can fail, at times . . . like Peter and "even Barnabas" did > Galatians 2:11-13.

So, I would say pray with whoever is reliable and trustworthy, and be ready to accept anyone who fails for a while in this matter.

But you should know by now if this pastor has obviously helped you to become more like Jesus and loving as His family while loving any and all people who do not know God. And God expects us to love him and pray for him. But we are not expected to go along with what is wrong or stay where nothing is being done about it by really Christian people.

 

[rockytopva]

Yes I feel that way too but I have little choice; there's Catholic, Lutheran, tongue-speaking Charismatics (where my son went) and this Baptist Church. I want to stay in my church but I cannot condone him demonizing people, especially my son. There's more to why my son left but he left honorably and his first love is still Jesus; being demonized separates him (a disabled young adults) from all the young adults in his contact circle for the last several years. It separates me from all those I've grown to love if I leave ... and leaves me with an unappealing choice of alternatives. Thanks for your answer though.

The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe. - Proverbs 29:25

Here is a young associate pastor doing a good job speaking against the evils of labels, titles, and being worried over the acceptance, appreciation, and approval of men...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes I feel that way too but I have little choice; there's Catholic, Lutheran, tongue-speaking Charismatics (where my son went) and this Baptist Church. I want to stay in my church but I cannot condone him demonizing people, especially my son. There's more to why my son left but he left honorably and his first love is still Jesus; being demonized separates him (a disabled young adults) from all the young adults in his contact circle for the last several years. It separates me from all those I've grown to love if I leave ... and leaves me with an unappealing choice of alternatives. Thanks for your answer though.

Hi Dhebi, I'd jump in here with those above and say that your pastor is wrong for stigmatizing those who may leave his specific church or find another Christian path to follow for the meantime. Have you addressed the issue with him?

 

[com7fy8]

It looks like you do not trust him. I think God will give us a pastor whom we trust. But this will be a person whom God Himself trusts, and therefore He expects us to obey the person whom . . . God Himself trusts enough to say > Hebrews 13:17.

 

[Dhebi]

Hi Dhebi, I'd jump in here with those above and say that your pastor is wrong for stigmatizing those who may leave his specific church or find another Christian path to follow for the meantime. Have you addressed the issue with him?

I have an appointment with him on Friday. He is not a humble guy and he doesn't admit mistakes specifically but just generically and often refers to mistakes he made with people who left. And, he complains in sermons that people don't tell him why they leave. So, I am going to confront him in all the humility and agape I can muster and I am praying he recants. I so want to stay ... I am searching for biblical support for what he said as well as my position. This is all very painful but it cannot separate me from my love of Christ. Thankyou for your reply.

 

[rockytopva]

I remember as a boy overhearing a lady tell another of a matter that was not handled, "scripturally." I shook that off as them being too negative. But now I am older I see the importance of the matter. It is important that we hold one another to scriptural ethical standards.

 

[Dhebi]

Our Apostle Peter is clear how leaders are to operate >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, if a man is not leading by good example, I would say we are obligated to get with a pastor who meets the qualifications which our Apostle Paul has provided > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And if ones shun you because of evil orders, they will answer to God.

And in case your church associates with other churches, you can first ask if the leaders in your own church can correct this. And if they can not or refuse to, you can at least report this matter to someone you trust in the Lord, who is a pastor in another church of your church's fellowship.

And pray with whoever you trust and go with however you come to agreement. In case he is very wrong and people obey him by shunning you, I can't tell you those are trustworthy people. But ones can fail, at times . . . like Peter and "even Barnabas" did > Galatians 2:11-13.

So, I would say pray with whoever is reliable and trustworthy, and be ready to accept anyone who fails for a while in this matter.

But you should know by now if this pastor has obviously helped you to become more like Jesus and loving as His family while loving any and all people who do not know God. And God expects us to love him and pray for him. But we are not expected to go along with what is wrong or stay where nothing is being done about it by really Christian people.

It is an independent Baptist Church so he is the only leader and has not fellowship with other churches. I don't want to be a "whisperer", but I am praying with the one person who caught me on the way out the door - who wasn't in the room so doesn't know what the dispute is. I got up and walked out after he said that - before taking the Lord's Supper. No one has asked me why. I am confronting him on Friday .. in accordance with Matthew 18:15. It will take all the humility and Agape I can muster - as he is not known for admitting mistakes. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer me.

 

[Albion]

I sympathize, Dhebi. The pastor was wrong. Abandoning Christ might bring such a criticism, although I still would not call the pastor's intemperate language appropriate, but he was narrowing his judgment down to the level of any cult. Christ did not found a club; he founded a movement that includes all who believe in the Lord.

Nor would the average Baptist minister agree with your pastor in this matter, I am confident. So that's one part of the issue, but what you can do going forward with few other churches to consider is hard to say. Speaking with the pastor and being restrained in what you say is about all that I could suggest under the circumstances.

 

[Dhebi]

I sympathize, Dhebi. The pastor was wrong. Abandoning Christ might bring such a criticism, although I still would not call the pastor's intemperate language appropriate, bu was narrowing his judgment down to the level of any cult. Christ did not found a club; he founded a movement that includes all who believe in the Lord.

Nor would the average Baptist minister agree with your pastor in this matter, I am confident. So that's one part of the issue, but what you can do going forward with few other churches to consider is hard to say. Speaking with the pastor and being restrained in what you say is about all that I could suggest under the circumstances.

My son did not abandon Christ, if anything he has more passion for his first love than ever. I also will not be separated from Christ. I will be speaking with my Pastor on Friday. I am so praying that God will work on his heart by then. I am constantly praying for HIS direction in this manner. Thank you so much for your thoughtful advice.

 

[Soyeong]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then called for our church to shun contact with those who leave our church. My son recently left our church to be with his fiance at her Charismatic Church, with her family. It was a difficult choice but the right one for him and his intended. I have been crying for days over what my pastor said; and, I have not gone to church since. I will follow Matthew 18:15 but I am horrified at the thought that he might not recant what he said (humility and the ability to admit a mistake aren't like him). I am searching for truth and resolution in this devastating circumstance. I believe my pastor abused his authority out of his own hurt pride. Did he abuse his authority? How can what he said be biblical? Any scripturally based help would be greatly appreciated.

For about a year my parents attended two congregations on Saturday and Sunday before they decided to switch completely. They went before the church leadership to explain their reasons for leaving and before they left they were prayed over by the congregation and sent out with their blessing, and in my opinion that is the right way to handle someone leaving a church. We are to love others and to be a light to the world, so when a church starts to develop isolationist or cultish policies, it makes me extremely wary. Without knowing more about the situation, pride does seem to be a likely suspect. Hopefully he will listen to you and repent, but you should be prepared to leave if he doesn't.

 

[dreadnought]

Last week, in leading us to the Lord’s Supper, my pastor (Baptist) used the opportunity to liken people who leave our Church to Judas Iscariot, and I believe thereby to Satan. He further demonized people who leave us by labeling them as betrayers and equated their betrayal of us with Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then called for our church to shun contact with those who leave our church. My son recently left our church to be with his fiance at her Charismatic Church, with her family. It was a difficult choice but the right one for him and his intended. I have been crying for days over what my pastor said; and, I have not gone to church since. I will follow Matthew 18:15 but I am horrified at the thought that he might not recant what he said (humility and the ability to admit a mistake aren't like him). I am searching for truth and resolution in this devastating circumstance. I believe my pastor abused his authority out of his own hurt pride. Did he abuse his authority? How can what he said be biblical? Any scripturally based help would be greatly appreciated.

People should be able to choose whatever church they wish. However, I do think people should attach themselves to churches rather than pastors. So often people leave the church soon after the church receives a new pastor.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have an appointment with him on Friday. He is not a humble guy and he doesn't admit mistakes specifically but just generically and often refers to mistakes he made with people who left. And, he complains in sermons that people don't tell him why they leave. So, I am going to confront him in all the humility and agape I can muster and I am praying he recants. I so want to stay ... I am searching for biblical support for what he said as well as my position. This is all very painful but it cannot separate me from my love of Christ. Thankyou for your reply.

Well, it sounds like you're taking the right approach. I've had to deal with overbearing church leaders in the past myself, and needless to say, there wasn't really any resolution for their attitudes. I think this was mainly because, besides having traits of stubbornness, one of those leaders was later clinically diagnosed as having NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). Obviously, this kind of thing can get in the way of good relationships with church members.

I know this kind of thing is uncomfortable to have to deal with, but I pray that things will work out for you in the near future.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Dhebi]

Well, it sounds like you're taking the right approach. I've had to deal with overbearing church leaders in the past myself, and needless to say, there wasn't really any resolution for their attitudes. I think this was mainly because, besides having traits of stubbornness, one of those leaders was later clinically diagnosed as having NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). Obviously, this kind of thing can get in the way of good relationships with church members.

I know this kind of thing is uncomfortable to have to deal with, but I pray that things will work out for you in the near future.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Thank you so much for your consoling words. Tomorrow is my meeting with the pastor. I am trying to stay focused on God's word today.

 

[com7fy8]

pride does seem to be a likely suspect.

Of course, I do not really know him; so I need to not jump to conclusions about him. But in my case I have been a very love-stupid person; I could do things wrong and be totally convinced I was right and by God's word and very smart . . . but so love-stupid ! !

How much is he talking about how we become because of Jesus growing in us as our new inner Person? > Galatians 4:19 < how much has he obviously ministered this to you??? We need our people who are our role models and who have power of

prayer

example

obedience

so they minister for us to become more like Christ, and develop in how we relate with God and please Him and submit to how He rules each of us in His very own peace > Colossians 3:15. And discover how He has us relating as family with one another >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And loving any and all people. In my opinion, "only", I would say that whoever ministers this to people is the real pastor of a church. Possibly, the one up front is not this person

Do you have a home group with people who help one another to grow and live in Jesus?

We all together can be "speaking the truth in love," so that we "may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head---Christ---" (in Ephesians 4:15)

So, is he doing this and having others also ministering with one another for this?

Or, what does he emphasize?

I know this kind of thing is uncomfortable to have to deal with,

I am trying to stay focused on God's word today.

And it is good not to allow a wrong person to have power over you to get you the wrong way.

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (in James 1:19-20)

You be his example!!!

 

[GUANO]

I have an appointment with him on Friday. He is not a humble guy and he doesn't admit mistakes specifically but just generically and often refers to mistakes he made with people who left. And, he complains in sermons that people don't tell him why they leave. So, I am going to confront him in all the humility and agape I can muster and I am praying he recants. I so want to stay ... I am searching for biblical support for what he said as well as my position. This is all very painful but it cannot separate me from my love of Christ. Thankyou for your reply.

Smash him!