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When she was 12 years old. This is based on the Infancy Gospel of James. Gospel of James - WikipediaWhen did she vow to remain a virgin?
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When she was 12 years old. This is based on the Infancy Gospel of James. Gospel of James - WikipediaWhen did she vow to remain a virgin?
The Bible names her children (plural). But if you want to believe the RCC or Orthodox on that, it is not a big deal. I choose scripture over any falsely based traditions.
Your friend is grasping at straws.
My friend, the Bible, is grasping at straws? I think not.
If Mary and Joseph only had one child, Jesus, when He was 12, don't you think they could have kept track of Him. By 12, Mary, around 28 would have had younger children to keep track of. When they discovered Jesus missing, the younger children could have gone home with relatives, leaving His parents to search for Him. And between 12 and the time Jesus was 30, she could have had more. I don't see any problem.
It answers both questions if Mary were a second wife and Joseph had had older children by an earlier, now deceased, wife.
At age 12, Jesus would no longer have been kept under Mary's hem. He would have been in the company of older male siblings and male cousins. Luke 2:41,42 does not preclude that other siblings went to the temple with them, but it would also be logical that they would have taken Jesus in particular, or even alone because He was the child at the age to "put away childish things" and be presented before the elders as the new "man" in the family.
After that, He'd have gone back into the company of the crowd of male relatives--where, indeed, scripture says Mary and Joseph thought He was--until they realized they hadn't seen Him at all three days later.
Where does it say that Joseph was a widower and had previous children?
The same place it says that Mary gave birth to other children beside Jesus.
-CryptoLutheran
The same place it says that Mary gave birth to other children beside Jesus.
It doesn't matter to modern theologians. It did to ancient theologians who believed only a miraculous birth could preserve Mary's perpetual virginity.To me, it seems obvious that the hymen would have broken during birth, given that Mary had no intercourse prior to Jesus' birth. How does it matter theologically when her hymen broke?
Dear 1stcenturylady, it's certain that the bible is not doing any grasping.My friend, the Bible, is grasping at straws? I think not.
They went every year and according to the Bible they thought they were keeping track of Him. He was entrusted to relatives. Also, Joseph and Mary would have never thought that Jesus would decide for Himself to stay behind. To them Jesus was doing wrong(committing a sin) for the first time. It's a sin to disobey authority that comes from above. From the account we see that Jesus knew the Law better than they did. He astonished the scribes and Pharisees with His knowledge of the Law. Twelve is the age when children become adults according to the Law. Jesus was acting accordingly. Jesus submitted Himself to their authority nevertheless.If Mary and Joseph only had one child, Jesus, when He was 12, don't you think they could have kept track of Him. By 12, Mary, around 28 would have had younger children to keep track of. When they discovered Jesus missing, the younger children could have gone home with relatives, leaving His parents to search for Him. And between 12 and the time Jesus was 30, she could have had more. I don't see any problem.
Dear 1stcenturylady, it's certain that the bible is not doing any grasping.
They went every year and according to the Bible they thought they were keeping track of Him. He was entrusted to relatives. Also, Joseph and Mary would have never thought that Jesus would decide for Himself to stay behind. To them Jesus was doing wrong(committing a sin) for the first time. It's a sin to disobey authority that comes from above. From the account we see that Jesus knew the Law better than they did. He astonished the scribes and Pharisees with His knowledge of the Law. Twelve is the age when children become adults according to the Law. Jesus was acting accordingly. Jesus submitted Himself to their authority nevertheless.
Luke 2-43
“Child, why have you treated us like this? Look, your father and I have been searching for you in great anxiety.” 49 He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?
50 But they did not understand what he said to them.
51- Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart.
Your point being, that they lost track of Jesus because Mary was distracted by her other children? My objection points out that Mary's attention wasn't necessary, so, didn't lapse and become an opportunity for Jesus to stay behind. That would make Jesus a child that sins. Just all the rest of them do.If Mary and Joseph only had one child, Jesus, when He was 12, don't you think they could have kept track of Him.
What was the reason they wanted to believe in perpetual virginity for Mary, given mention of Jesus' "mother and brothers" in the bible, and God allowing Joseph to marry her?It doesn't matter to modern theologians. It did to ancient theologians who believed only a miraculous birth could preserve Mary's perpetual virginity.
As for brothers and sisters, the common understanding was, and is still, that the words used for siblings also served for cousins in the time and place that Jesus lived.What was the reason they wanted to believe in perpetual virginity for Mary, given mention of Jesus' "mother and brothers" in the bible, and God allowing Joseph to marry her?
a woman's body goes through a lot of changes in preparation for birth and I would actually think the hymen would naturally stretch and tear during these changes. If not the 9 months before the labour then I would think the stress of the labour itself would stretch the hymen until it torn well before the baby was delivered. But of course if still not "broken" it would have to be torn by the baby but I just see that very unlikely however with that said a lot of other tearing can occur which could perhaps satisfy your blood covenant analogy.Jesus had to break it with his head at his birth
I don't believe it ushered in a new covenant. I was only thinking out loud. But your comment is very thought provoking. Thank you.a woman's body goes through a lot of changes in preparation for birth and I would actually think the hymen would naturally stretch and tear during these changes. If not the 9 months before the labour then I would think the stress of the labour itself would stretch the hymen until it torn well before the baby was delivered. But of course if still not "broken" it would have to be torn by the baby but I just see that very unlikely however with that said a lot of other tearing can occur which could perhaps satisfy your blood covenant analogy.
I actually see a greater (or more mysterious) connection through the the process of growing a baby in your body. The placenta acts as a type of exchange system of blood between the mother and child with the fetal blood running through the placenta and passing off the waste and collecting the rich nutrients all without mixing the two together. But the blood itself is the key component to the exchange for both mother and child thus a type of covenant working together. There is a delivery of the placenta as well where blood is going to be present and is going to be spilled (births are messy things)
how do you see the hymen breaking at delivery important to a blood covenant? Yes, I understand there is spilled blood from the result of the baby and I understand where the roots are from but why do you think this act would echo this abrahamic blood covenant or perhaps usher in a new?
I don't believe it ushered in a new covenant. I was only thinking out loud. But your comment is very thought provoking. Thank you.