When did Mary's hymen break?

[AlexDTX]

On the other hand, a church that cites as proof early Christian leaders who speculated that Jesus was miraculously born through Mary's side (!) surely aren't going to be phased by this little problem.

I never heard that, although I see the reasoning. However, Jesus was not the husband of Mary as Eve was the wife of Adam.

 

[AlexDTX]

And that defines virginity by what? The hymen being stretched or not having a sexual relationship with a man?
I believe a virgin is a girl/woman who has not had sexual relations with a man, just as Mary said, and is still medically true to this day.

Not according to medical dictionaries:

Medical Definition of Virginal membrane

Virginal membrane: A thin membrane which completely or partially occludes the vaginal opening. This fold of mucous membrane is usually present at birth at the orifice of the vagina. In medicine, it is called the vaginal membrane or the hymen. Hymen is a Greek word meaning "skin" or "membrane." The ancient Greeks applied the word "hymen" to all kinds of membranes including, for example, the membrane that surrounds the heart (the pericardium). Starting in the 1500s the word was restricted to refer only to the vaginal membrane.

Medical virginity is an intact hymen.

 

[Saucy]

You are not responding to the OP. The hymen would have been broken by the head of Jesus at birth.

I did respond to the OP. They could've had sex to consummate after Jesus was conceived but before he was born. So, like I said, it would depend on when they had sex.

 

[SolomonVII]

I don't think that there is any great theological insights to be gained from a discussion of Mary's hymen.
The Biblical miracle that the Virgin Birth refers to is that Jesus was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, and not through a one-flesh procreative union of man and a woman.
Virginity is also spiritually significant as an expression of purity and stainlessness.
Spiritually purity is not situated in the hymen but in the heart.

I don't know, but is it just me that finds something rather unedifying and even crass about talking about a ladies private parts, and the lady parts of the Holy Mother of God, no less?

 

[Albion]

I agree, but if we must discuss, there is one other matter that should be mentioned. I am referring to the fact that, while the doctrine of the Virgin Birth doesn't depend on the answer to the question here...the idea of Mary's 'perpetual virginity'/Mary as 'ever-virgin' does. That's why that 'birth through Mary's side' theory has been used.

 

[Hank77]

Not according to medical dictionaries:

Medical Definition of Virginal membrane

Virginal membrane: A thin membrane which completely or partially occludes the vaginal opening. This fold of mucous membrane is usually present at birth at the orifice of the vagina. In medicine, it is called the vaginal membrane or the hymen. Hymen is a Greek word meaning "skin" or "membrane." The ancient Greeks applied the word "hymen" to all kinds of membranes including, for example, the membrane that surrounds the heart (the pericardium). Starting in the 1500s the word was restricted to refer only to the vaginal membrane.

Medical virginity is an intact hymen.

Ask a doctor if the hymen is torn does that mean there has been sexual intercourse and therefore, a pregnancy could have happened. What are they going to tell you?
That was my point, not the medical definition of the hymen itself.

 

[Hank77]

I don't think that there is any great theological insights to be gained from a discussion of Mary's hymen.
The Biblical miracle that the Virgin Birth refers to is that Jesus was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, and not through a one-flesh procreative union of man and a woman.
Virginity is also spiritually significant as an expression of purity and stainlessness.
Spiritually purity is not situated in the hymen but in the heart.

I don't know, but is it just me that finds something rather unedifying and even crass about talking about a ladies private parts, and the lady parts of the Holy Mother of God, no less?

I agree.
The idea that virginity, especially in the case of Mary, imho, has absolutely nothing to do with the condition of body parts but a condition of faithfulness to God in that area of one's life.

 

[Albion]

I agree.
The idea that virginity, especially in the case of Mary, imho, has absolutely nothing to do with the condition of body parts but a condition of faithfulness to God in that area of one's life.

Yet that is exactly the basis for the claims made by the church over the years--physical condition.

The idea of Mary as ever-virgin does not mean that she was always spiritually minded or pure of heart or anything of the sort.

 

[AlexDTX]

I did respond to the OP. They could've had sex to consummate after Jesus was conceived but before he was born. So, like I said, it would depend on when they had sex.

Yes, but that is not the question of the OP.

"So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?"

Did his birth create some kind of covenant with Mary? That is the question.

 

[AlexDTX]

Ask a doctor if the hymen is torn does that mean there has been sexual intercourse and therefore, a pregnancy could have happened. What are they going to tell you?
That was my point, not the medical definition of the hymen itself.

Hank, everyone is missing my OP question.

"So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?"

The question is not what constitutes her virginity, the question is there a covenant with Mary created by the breaking of the hymen. I am going to add a post script to the OP because it is apparent that my question is not clear.

 

[Hank77]

Yes, but that is not the question of the OP.

"So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?"

Did his birth create some kind of covenant with Mary? That is the question.

What does the scripture say? It seems to me that would be rather important.

 

[RDKirk]

It was to the Jews.

An intact hymen was evidence of virginity to the Jews, but not the definition of virginity. "Have not known a man" was the definition of virginity.

....but save for yourselves every girl who has not known a man. -- Numbers 31

 

[RDKirk]

Hank, everyone is missing my OP question.

"So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?"

The question is not what constitutes her virginity, the question is there a covenant with Mary created by the breaking of the hymen. I am going to add a post script to the OP because it is apparent that my question is not clear.

If there had been a covenant made, there must have been commitments made by each party. So what were those commitments?

 

[1stcenturylady]

An intact hymen was evidence of virginity to the Jews, but not the definition of virginity. "Have not known a man" was the definition of virginity.

....but save for yourselves every girl who has not known a man. -- Numbers 31

But Mary wasn't a PERPETUAL virgin as the RCC claims. After Jesus was born she knew her husband and had other children. She was just a virgin at the birth of Jesus.

Joseph was commanded to take her as his wife, but to wait until the child was born to be intimate.

Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

 

[RDKirk]

But Mary wasn't a PERPETUAL virgin as the RCC claims.

That wasn't the question.

 

[AlexDTX]

What does the scripture say?

Please tell me.

 

[AlexDTX]

If there had been a covenant made, there must have been commitments made by each party. So what were those commitments?

Thank you. Excellent question. It seems Jesus took responsibility for Mary, especially if Joseph had died, when he told John on the cross, Behold your mother.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Normally, that would be how the hymen would have been broken. Joseph was commanded to take her as his wife, but to wait until the child was born to be intimate.

I wonder, every woman was once a virgin and the first time she has sex, people stop calling her a virgin.


You took one word that doesn't necessarily, well wasn't used the way it was in your interpretation. You turned it into a command from God!

The word 'until'

• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?
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• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? no! Luke 1:33 says, and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

5:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: "But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until I could send him to Caesar."
Does this mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was "sent" to Caesar? Not according to the bible. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16).

So you see the word doesn't mean that God commanded Joseph to have sex with Mary. It doesn't even mean she had sex with Joseph.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I wonder, every woman was once a virgin and the first time she has sex, people stop calling her a virgin.
You took one word that doesn't necessarily, well wasn't used the way it was in your interpretation. You turned it into a command from God!

The word 'until'

• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
• 
  
• 
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob foreverand of his kingdom there shall be no end.")

5:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: "But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until I could send him to Caesar."

No where does it say that Joseph never consummated their marriage bed. She was only to stay a virgin to have a "virgin birth." Once that was over, she had other children.

 

[Eloy Craft]

No where does it say that Joseph never consummated their marriage bed. She was only to stay a virgin to have a "virgin birth." Once that was over, she had other children.

No where does it say that Joseph was to consummate the marriage bed. She was to stay a virgin dedicated to her only Son the Incarnate God.