Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[Albion]

... An Anglicized version of the Church of Rome... She did not return to Her Orthodox Roots...

Arsenios

I don't think it would be correct to say that the church had Orthodox roots, or origins, or that she represented an Anglicized version of the Church of Rome during or after the Reformation. However, it appears that there was an Orthodox influence in the British Isles in the first several years of the Christian era when, by comparison, there was no known interchange between Britain and the church at Rome.

 

[Arsenios]

I noticed that as well. I am thinking that he is speaking of The Recapitulation Theory.

I am referring to plain Scripture which seems to have been edited out of your remembrance??

Rom_6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;
and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I thought you guys believed the Bible!

I mean,
What's with this??

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

'Tis a grim history, n'est pas?

Arsenios

Is that actually what is taught in Eastern Orthodox circles?

 

[Arsenios]

I don't think it would be correct to say that the church had Orthodox roots, or origins, or that she represented an Anglicized version of the Church of Rome during or after the Reformation. However, it appears that there was an Orthodox influence in the British Isles in the first several years of the Christian era when, by comparison, there was no known interchange between Britain and the church at Rome.

The Latin Church was Orthodox for the first thousand years...

Started out Apostolic, and came under Rome Who was the Western Church...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Is that actually what is taught in Eastern Orthodox circles? It is quite amusing.

I just got it from an Anglican convert to Orthodoxy who knows some history...

'Tis the basic history of the Church in England, I should think...

Started out Orthodox...
Invaded by Apostatic Roman Normans in 1066...
Orthodoxy destroyed by Latin Papal Authoritarianism...
Cut ties to Rome under Henry the VIII
Instituted its own Latin look-alike Church under British rule...

That is what my friend tells me...

I am not much of a history buff of these times...

But when the Papalist Latins took over in the 11th century,
they persecuted the Orthodox out of existence...

eg Submit to the Pope or die...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

The Latin Church was Orthodox for the first thousand years...

Started out Apostolic, and came under Rome Who was the Western Church...

Arsenios

I think I outlined the history of the church in Britain and England in an earlier post. We can safely go back to the topic of this thread now.

 

[Arsenios]

I don't think it would be correct to say that the church had Orthodox roots, or origins

They were certainly Apostolic... And that means Orthodox, unless you have concluded that the Apostles were heterodox??

Naaaaaggghhh!

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

That is what my friend tells me...

I am not much of a history buff of these times...

It looks like the friend was trying to be agreeable by creating an EO version of English history for use when speaking with EO Christians.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

You're talking different churches, of course. But the conflicting interpretations of Scripture are not resolved by turning to something OTHER than the word of God, specifically the theories of men.

As for your second question, every church has some traditions, but most do not pretend that these are the equal of divine revelation and do not make doctrine out of them.

Once saved alway saved/can lose your salvation, Baptism ( regenerative ,symbolic ,baptism of the Holy Spirit ),Predestination, are important conflicting interpretations ( which also would affect ones understanding of salvation ) Who decides which is the correct interpretation of the word of God . The Word of God is not self interpreting . Otherwise there would be one unified protestant church and no conflict amongst yourselves . Why didn't Martin Luther get it right the first time around .

 

[Albion]

Once saved alway saved/can lose your salvation, Baptism ( regenerative ,symbolic ,baptism of the Holy Spirit ),Predestination, are important conflicting interpretations ( which also would affect ones understanding of salvation )

But those are not church "traditions" (about which we were speaking). They are interpretations of scripture.

Who decides which is the correct interpretation of the word of God . The Word of God is not self interpreting .

I agree that Scripture is not self-interpreting except that much of it is so point blank and straightforward that it doesn't require any interpreting.

All churches interpret the less obvious parts, using the best Bible experts, linguists, historians, and whatever other information can be brought to bear on the process of interpreting--all churches.

Otherwise there would be one unified protestant church and no conflict amongst yourselves . Why didn't Martin Luther get it right the first time around .

Why is there no unified Catholic church either?

The Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Armenian, Nestorian, Abyssinian, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, Old Believers, and others disagree among themselves, just as Protestant churches disagree among themselves.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I noticed that he several times worded that as "entry into" or "enters into," which I would interpret as something other than "equals salvation."

I doubt that he or the Orthodox Church view salvation in the same light. For many, if not most, in that Church, salvation is the end result of a life of repentance, not a present reality.

 

[prodromos]

I doubt that he or the Orthodox Church view salvation in the same light. For many, if not most, in that Church, salvation is the end result of a life of repentance, not a present reality.

We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

Thank you.

 

[Arsenios]

It looks like the friend was trying to be agreeable by creating an EO version of English history for use when speaking with EO Christians.

I will run that by him...
Do you remember which Apostle evangellized England?

Arsenios

 

[Open Heart]

The thought occurred to me that since you are so adamantly against "A Sinners Prayer", how then did you get saved my dear???

Romans 10:9 says.......
"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

Me? Because I grew up in the church, it happened differently for me than for an adult convert. Basically I repeatedly accepted Jesus to the degree I could at the maturity level that I was at. At age three I loved Jesus and thought the church was a good place to be. At age seven I had an idea of what choosing wrong was, and that Jesus wanted me to choose right. The two paths in life. I wanted to be the way Jesus wanted me to be. So I responded to an altar call. When I was twelve, I "rededicated" my life to Christ, understanding that he had died for my sins, and that I needed to accept his grace by faith. When I was eighteen, the HS convicted me, and I understood that being a Christian meant more than just attending Church and praying and reading the Bible. It meant doing unto the least of these my brethren. I wanted to be God's fully without compromise. When I was 22, I realized that I needed to be obedient to God even when I didn't understand the reason why he asked something of me. So, even though I thought Baptism was a silly ritual, I was baptized. When I was 27, I realized that loving Christ meant loving His Church, and I became Catholic. For the remainder of my life, I have sought to examine my walk and my conscience, looking for ways I can draw closer to Christ and avail myself of his grace.

 

[Arsenios]

I doubt that he or the Orthodox Church view salvation in the same light. For many, if not most, in that Church, salvation is the end result of a life of repentance, not a present reality.

Salvation is here and now... The Kingdom of Heaven, Which is Christ, is AT HAND...
We attain Eternal Life in this life, here and now...
It is to KNOW the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ...
The very Christ who was about to be Baptized by John as John said...
One is coming after me Who was before me...
Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven...
KNOWING as John used it above is a term with Jews of a marriage relationship between man and wife...
It is the Marriage of the Lamb, into which we enter by Baptism INTO Christ's Holy Body, the Church... Our Salvation, GIVEN by God TO us in Baptism INTO Christ, is the Gift God gives by His Grace through the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples...

It is ENTERED through our repentance BY God whose servants IN His Body then complete in Baptism unto forgiveness of sins, in which purity we are reborn and are given the Holy Spirit... Just as Ananias GAVE the Holy Spirit to Paul by means of his baptism of Paul INTO Christ...

Salvation IS this Marriage, of which our entry by Christ into His Body the Church is an earnest bestowed BY God THROUGH repentance IN Baptism... This is the Baptism that John the Baptist could not give, because He was the last and the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, but was NOT a member of the Body of Christ, and said so... He died an OT Prophet and preached Christ even in Hell where he was soon joined by Christ and was released from it... But John could NOT enter those he baptized into Christ - ONLY Christ can DO that - And this is what He DOES when He baptizes us at the hands of His Servants INTO Himself, which means INTO His Body, the Church, which IS the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth... This is why Ananias was ABLE to fill Paul with the Holy Spirit - Because he was acting as a Servant of the Lord, and only God can GIVE God... And THAT is what Salvation IS...

This is an essential feature of the difference between the understanding of the Ancient Faith of the Orthodox Faith of Christ of Salvation IN Christ, and that of the heterodox confessions...

Arsenios

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

We can also say that the Bible tells us in 1 John 5:11-12.......
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life."

John 1:12 .........
"But to all who have received him--those who believe in his name--he has given the right to become God's children."

John 3:16-18 .......
"For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God".

This means we must each come to God the same way:
(1) as a sinner who recognizes his sinfulness,
(2) realizes no human works can result in salvation, and
(3) relies totally on Christ alone by faith alone for our salvation.

And it all of that, the church has no say. As YOU just said, It is God ALONE who bestows His salvation.

Except the bible does not say that

James 2:14-24- " a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
James 2:16 -"faith without works is dead"
Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working through love
1Cor 13:2 - faith without works is nothing
Jn 14:15 -if you love me keep my commandments
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Mt 10:22- he who endures till the end will be save
Rom2:5--God will repay each man according to his works
Col 3:24-25 -will receive due payment according to their deeds .
Mt 7:21-not everyone who says lord lord will enter the will inherit the kingdom of heaven .
Rev 20:12-13 -dead judged according to their deeds


The Catholic Church teaches that Grace, faith and works together like a 3 legged stool working in unity . Take out one leg it falls down . Your faith alone will not save you as said in James . And my works alone won't save me .Grace alone can save . Like the Thief on the cross ,but he still had to take action, acknowledge his sins and acknowledge Christ . He was not Baptised , however this situation was not the norm . Baptism is the norm for salvation .There is not a prescription for the sinners prayer but only " believe and be baptized" . Repentance is also part of the process . The early Church guided Catholic Christians in the process of salvation . The Catholic Church recognizes your Trinitarian Baptism and and to a certain extent your sinners prayer . We consider you a Christian .


Scripture also says Baptism does something (regenerative sacrament )

Tit 3:5-he saved us through the bath of rebirth,renewal of the Holy Spirit .
Acts 1:37-38-repent,be baptized,receive the Holy Spirit
Act:22:16-get selves baptised and sins washed away
1 Cor 6:11- you were washed,sanctified,justified
Rom 6:4-baptized into death;live in newness of life
1 Peter 3:21 baptism now saves you.

 

[Arsenios]

We can also say that the Bible tells us in 1 John 5:11-12.......
"And this is the testimony: God has given us Eternal Life,
and this Life is IN (within) his Son.

This affirms that our Eternal Life is IN Christ, and that to attain to Eternal Life, then we have to GO to where it is to be found, and it is to be found within Christ, wherefore we must needs BE baptized INTO Christ Who HAS Eternal Life IN Him, and Who indeed IS Eternal Life...

The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life."

The key word here is HAS and HAVE, and until you are baptized INTO Christ, you cannot HAVE the Son...

John 1:12 .........
"But to all who have received him--those who believe in his name--he has given the right to become God's children."

Keyword here is "have received" - The Greek term's primary meaning is SIEZED, TAKEN... I
And in this meaning, 'received' means 'forcibly obtained', which gives rise to the very Mysterious question: "HOW can one forcibly obtain that which only God can freely GIVE???" And we are taken in memory to the Prophet - I forget his name, was it Jacob? - Who wrestled with God... And then the New Testament words: "From the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven [Who is Christ] is suffering violence, and the violent are SIEZING it by FORCE..." Repentance and following Christ by taking up one's own cross are violent actions taken against the self where Christ is permitting Himself to be entered and siezed by this action by man, which explains why the first WORD of the Gospel OF Jesus Christ is "BE YE REPENTING/KEEP ON REPENTING", for the Kingdom of Heaven, Which is the Body of Christ, Who is her head, is at hand, HERE and NOW...

John 3:16-18 .......
"For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God".

This means we must each come to God the same way:

Yes, by repentance unto entry into Christ through being Baptized into Christ...

(1) as a sinner who recognizes his sinfulness,

And essential first step in repentance...

(2) realizes no human works can result in salvation, and

Exactly - ONLY Christ can baptize you into Himself, and He does so at the hands of the members of His Body where you ARE BAPTIZED into that very Body...

(3) relies totally on Christ alone by faith alone for our salvation.

You just re-wrote the Bible... Read the text. It does not say by faith alone - It says THROUGH (eg by means of) THE Faith (OF Christ which He discipled to His disciples)

And in all of that, the Church has no say.

Then you are falsely arguing that Christ has no say through His Body in the matter of the Salvation that Christ GIVES to those whom He (Christ) gives ENTRY INTO His Body through Baptism INTO Christ...

As YOU just said, It is God ALONE who bestows His salvation.

Exactly so...

Which is why it is the Ekklesia of Christ, the Apostolic Church of Christ-God, that baptizes those repenting in obedience to the Gospel of Christ, INTO Christ's Body, in obedience TO Christ, discipling the nations in the Faith of Christ which they have received from Christ...

ONLY God CAN do this...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

This affirms that our Eternal Life is IN Christ, and that to attain to Eternal Life, then we have to GO to where it is to be found, and it is to be found within Christ, wherefore we must needs BE baptized INTO Christ Who HAS Eternal Life IN Him, and Who indeed IS Eternal Life...



The key word here is HAS and HAVE, and until you are baptized INTO Christ, you cannot HAVE the Son...



Keyword here is "have received" - The Greek term's primary meaning is SIEZED, TAKEN... I
And in this meaning, 'received' means 'forcibly obtained', which gives rise to the very Mysterious question: "HOW can one forcibly obtain that which only God can freely GIVE???" And we are taken in memory to the Prophet - I forget his name, was it Jacob? - Who wrestled with God... And then the New Testament words: "From the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven [Who is Christ] is suffering violence, and the violent are SIEZING it by FORCE..." Repentance and following Christ by taking up one's own cross are violent actions taken against the self where Christ is permitting Himself to be entered and siezed by this action by man, which explains why the first WORD of the Gospel OF Jesus Christ is "BE YE REPENTING/KEEP ON REPENTING", for the Kingdom of Heaven, Which is the Body of Christ, Who is her head, is at hand, HERE and NOW...

John 3:16-18 .......
"For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God".



Yes, by repentance unto entry into Christ through being Baptized into Christ...



And essential first step in repentance...



Exactly - ONLY Christ can baptize you into Himself, and He does so at the hands of the members of His Body where you ARE BAPTIZED into that very Body...



You just re-wrote the Bible... Read the text. It does not say by faith alone - It says THROUGH (eg by means of) THE Faith (OF Christ which He discipled to His disciples)



Then you are falsely arguing that Christ has no say through His Body in the matter of the Salvation that Christ GIVES to those whom He (Christ) gives ENTRY INTO His Body through Baptism INTO Christ...



Exactly so...

Which is why it is the Ekklesia of Christ, the Apostolic Church of Christ-God, that baptizes those repenting in obedience to the Gospel of Christ, INTO Christ's Body, in obedience TO Christ, discipling the nations in the Faith of Christ which they have received from Christ...

ONLY God CAN do this...

Arsenios

To be baptized "into Christ," "into His death," and "into one body" is to be publicly identified with the thing you are being baptized into. The focus is not the baptism itself but on the thing the baptism represents.

In the case of Rom. 6:3-5, being baptized into Christ is a public identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection which is said to be the gospel that saves in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. So then, baptism is a public statement proclaiming that the person is trusting in the sacrifice of Christ.

Baptism by immersion is a perfect symbol for this work of Christ with which the Christian is identifying himself. As Christ died and was raised to a new life, so too the Christian, in Christ, is said to have died (Rom. 6:11; Col. 3:3) and has a new life. This new life of regeneration is by faith - the internal work. Baptism is the external work of identification with Christ. This is why the reference to baptism in the Bible is dealing more with "our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism."

• Baptism is being identified as a disciple (Matt. 28:18-9).
• Baptism may be compared to a new birth (John 3:5).
• Baptism is compared to Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-5).
• Baptism is compared to Israel's Exodus and passing through the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:2).
• Baptism is compared to Noah's escaping the flood waters by entering the ark (1 Pet. 3:21).

In each of the references above, baptism is an identification with something.

When people were baptized into John the Baptist's baptism of repentance, it wasn't the baptism that granted them repentance or made repentance real. Repentance is something that happens internally and is the work of God (2 Tim. 2:25).

To participate in John's baptism was to publicly proclaim that the person being baptized was accepting John's message or repentance. Hence, it was called a baptism of repentance. It wasn't the baptism that brought repentance; rather, baptism was the result of repentance. The person had to first decide to repent and then become baptized as a proclamation of his decision. Likewise, the Christian must first decide to repent, to receive Christ (John 1:12), to rely on the sacrifice of Christ, by faith, and then participate in the public proclamation of identifying with Christ's work.

It is an identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that baptism represents. Jesus' shed blood is what cleanses us from our sins (Heb. 9:22) - not being washed with water. It is Christ's death that is the payment for sin. Jesus' burial is the proof that He, in fact, died.

Jesus' resurrection is the proof of God the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ, and that death is conquered. Again, for a Christian to be baptized is to make a public proclamation that he is trusting in Christ's work - that he is naming himself with Christ and trusting what Christ has done.

This is why it says in Rom. 6:11........
"Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Why? Because in Gal. 2:20 we see.....
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.".

It is on the cross that Jesus paid for our sins - not in His baptism and not in our baptism. It is our identification with Him, being counted "in Christ" that allows us to say we have been crucified with Christ so that we can say we are dead to sin. We are not dead to sin by our baptism. Rather, we are dead to sin, by faith, in what Jesus did in His sacrifice.
Baptism and Romans 6:3-5 | CARM.org

 

[Major1]

Except the bible does not say that

James 2:14-24- " a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
James 2:16 -"faith without works is dead"
Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working through love
1Cor 13:2 - faith without works is nothing
Jn 14:15 -if you love me keep my commandments
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Mt 10:22- he who endures till the end will be save
Rom2:5--God will repay each man according to his works
Col 3:24-25 -will receive due payment according to their deeds .
Mt 7:21-not everyone who says lord lord will enter the will inherit the kingdom of heaven .
Rev 20:12-13 -dead judged according to their deeds


The Catholic Church teaches that Grace, faith and works together like a 3 legged stool working in unity . Take out one leg it falls down . Your faith alone will not save you as said in James . And my works alone won't save me .Grace alone can save . Like the Thief on the cross ,but he still had to take action, acknowledge his sins and acknowledge Christ . He was not Baptised , however this situation was not the norm . Baptism is the norm for salvation .There is not a prescription for the sinners prayer but only " believe and be baptized" . Repentance is also part of the process . The early Church guided Catholic Christians in the process of salvation . The Catholic Church recognizes your Trinitarian Baptism and and to a certain extent your sinners prayer . We consider you a Christian .


Scripture also says Baptism does something (regenerative sacrament )

Tit 3:5-he saved us through the bath of rebirth,renewal of the Holy Spirit .
Acts 1:37-38-repent,be baptized,receive the Holy Spirit
Act:22:16-get selves baptised and sins washed away
1 Cor 6:11- you were washed,sanctified,justified
Rom 6:4-baptized into death;live in newness of life
1 Peter 3:21 baptism now saves you.

I do realize how important it is to you to make those Scriptures say what you want them to say. What you have done is classic my friend.

You are working hard to say that water baptism is necessary for our salvation.
The answer is, however, no, it does not. In order to make those Scriptures teach that baptism is required for salvation, you must go beyond what the verse actually says. What those verses do teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

Mark 16:16...........
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”. This verse is composed of two basic statements.
1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

I do not know how God could have said that to make it more understandable.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz...........
“He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.