All Israel is saved

[Soar Like and Eagle]

If you believe John was being physical or carnal you will have to explain that to me.

You are side-stepping what I have said and misrepresenting it.

As you seem to think you have nothing yet to learn (at least from me) Tell me: Did Nicodemus really have faith in Jesus? Tell me why did Jesus use the Greek word "kathegetes” for "teacher" at Matthew 23:10-12 but Nicodemus called him a “didaskalos” (teacher) at John 3:2? What is the principal difference between recognizing one as a ""kathegetes” and only recognizing one as a "“didaskalos”?

Which one of those two kinds of teachers are any of us who would be teachers and why?

You have much you could learn from me if you only would be willing to do so. You merely have no idea of it right now.

I said he was not physical or carnal many believer act as if they can interpret the most spiritual book ever written by seeing it this way. I am sure you will learn plenty from me also. I have no idea what you are speaking about pertaining to the teacher?

 

[Buzz_B]

I said he was not physical or carnal many believer act as if they can interpret the most spiritual book ever written by seeing it this way. I am sure you will learn plenty from me also. I have no idea what you are speaking about pertaining to the teacher?

You are right that it is a highly spiritual book but it is also a book presented in many signs as the very opening verse tells us. So we must be alert not to confuse things that are only signs as being literal even while it requires our spiritual senses to be peaked before getting any significant benefit from the book.

The word Jesus there used at Mathew 23:10-12 for “Master” is the Greek “kathegetes” and literally means, “one who guides.” So what Jesus is telling us there is that no one is to guide our way to God but for him. And yet we see other teachers spoken of by the Bible writers. The Greek word they use to speak of these other teachers is, “didaskalos”, which merely means, “one through whom some things can be learned.”

It is therefore interesting that rather than viewing Jesus as the Messiah who would lead them to God, the Pharisee, named Nicodemus, used “didaskalos” when speaking to Jesus (showing that he viewed Jesus as just another teacher like he fancied himself and others to be): “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.” John 3:2

Contrary to popular reports, Nicodemus was not expressing any real faith in Jesus.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I agree except when their teachings promote idolatry. God is not being slack in letting them know that certain things are wrong and will not be excused. And if their mistaken doctrines cause them to ignore God's warnings to them they will pay the price.

Bro,
Let’s not minimize the horrendous sin of actual idolatry with the use of the word in an illustrative manner.

 

[Buzz_B]

Bro,
Let’s not minimize the horrendous sin of actual idolatry with the use of the word in an illustrative manner.

More things fall under the scope of idolatry than many people realize. One does not have to know they are committing idolatry to commit idolatry. The same as one may think they have the right to sample fruit at the local grocery store without permission and not see it as theft. Many do it.

Lets not minimize the importance of listening to God that we will know what is and is not sin in his eyes.

Colossians 3:5-7 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them."

 

[claninja]

Claninja,

1. All ethic Israel will be saved Romans 11:15-29 in the Generation when Christ sets up the KoH reign on earth. Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7.

2. Revelation 12 shows the Sun Clothed Woman who is Israel births the manchild (the 144,000), who go to the Heavenly Mt. Sion Revelation 14:1-5 and Israel, the Sun Clothed Woman who is the nation of Israel is preserved for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation in Petra and Bozrah while the remnant of her seed are scattered and the dragon goes after her in verse 17.
The Jewish remnant are in Revelation 11 praising God at the end of the tribulation as the two witnesses go up to Heaven.
Zechariah 13:8-9 is about 2/3 being cut off which are rebels of Israel.
The Jewish remnant will be saved but so will the nation of Israel that is preserved to the end. Read Hebrews 8:7-13. So all nation will be saved and become the head of the nations Isaiah 2:24 with Christ at the head of the whole earth Ezekiel 37:20 and Israel and Judah will be the two sticks United as one forever.
This couldn’t be talking about the church for they wil have been raptured 7yrs. prior to the Battle of Armageddon 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Revelation 5:9-10 in Heaven before the tribulation.
Revelation 11:18 receiving rewards in Heaven.
Revelation 19:7-10 in Heaven at the Marriage of the Lamb before the go out of Heaven to go to the Battle of Armageddon 11-15 the supper of the Great God.
One must understand the earthly calling of Israel concerning the Abrahamic Covenant and Davidic Covenant concerning the KoH reign and the KoG spiritual aspect of salvation according to the New Covenant.
God isn’t through with Israel and their eternal Covenants as in 2 Samuel 7:1-16 and 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
Israel has broken the covenant, not Godeven though he divorced them in Hosea but he will always bring them back when the generations hears his voice when their nation and their light is almost snuffed out for their heralding of the KoH message Matthew 24:14 that Christ will come back and destroy the nations and they will become Christ Revelation 11:15 and Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:1-4.
Only Israel has been trodden under the feet of men and cast out because they lost the savor of their salt Matthew 5:13. Jesus said the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Jerry kelso

What is this, is this premillennialism?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

You are right that it is a highly spiritual book but it is also a book presented in many signs as the very opening verse tells us. So we must be alert not to confuse things that are only signs as being literal even while it requires our spiritual senses to be peaked before getting any significant benefit from the book.

The word Jesus there used at Mathew 23:10-12 for “Master” is the Greek “kathegetes” and literally means, “one who guides.” So what Jesus is telling us there is that no one is to guide our way to God but for him. And yet we see other teachers spoken of by the Bible writers. The Greek word they use to speak of these other teachers is, “didaskalos”, which merely means, “one through whom some things can be learned.”

It is therefore interesting that rather than viewing Jesus as the Messiah who would lead them to God, the Pharisee, named Nicodemus, used “didaskalos” when speaking to Jesus (showing that he viewed Jesus as just another teacher like he fancied himself and others to be): “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.” John 3:2

Contrary to popular reports, Nicodemus was not expressing any real faith in Jesus.

Awesome... The Book of Revelation
It has been said, there are five ways to interpret the Book:
1) Historically, it all happened a long time ago.
2) Present, in our now, but mostly negative, as people try to fit the events of their day into its pages, wondering if these certain happenings fulfill the judgment and doom they have been told is to come, to signify times end, though they hope they can escape from it all.
3) Futuristically, it will all happen out there some time.
4) Idealistically, poetically, using mental images from which to form your ideals and values, etc.
5) All of the above, practicing parts of each. Perhaps that is how many view it today. Some of it is viewed historically, some of it is viewed prophetically, and betimes men look to see if it verifies the time table that "the end is upon us.'' While occasionally passages are used to draw images and pictures that men apply to their day, as they interpret various points and fit them together.

Revelations 1:1


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

Is this the one word is so that you spoke of? ‘signified” or signs and symbols.

 

[ClementofA]

We must take verses 14-19 together rather than blinding ourselves to interpreting verse 18 by itself.

That is what you have done. You used tunnel vision to decide what verse 18 meant and then after having decided what verse 18 meant you set about imposing your idea on the rest of the context.

Get rid of the idea that "many" means they have to be equal numbers so that you can understand that many does not have to mean "all."

Then you will be free to understand that in verse 18, just because the free gift of salvation is offered impartially to all, that does not mean that all will accept it. And yet it will remain true that many will accept it.

Your idea conflicts far too much of the scriptures for it to even be close to true.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

The "many" spoken of in that passage is limited to "those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness" (Rom 5:17)

Non receivers are of course deprived both the grace and the gift.

There will be no "Non recievers".

As per Jason Pratt's & Tom Talbott's remarks at the following urls.

"... it is nearly certain that Paul was here using the word ‘receiving’ in a passive sense. In the words of John Murray, the ‘word ‘receiving’…does not refer [in 5:17] to our believing acceptance of the free gift but to our being made the recipients’ of it. Indeed, Paul rarely used ‘lambano’ (‘to receive’) in the sense of ‘to take hold’ or ‘to accept believingly’. To receive something in his sense is simply to be the object or the recipient of it, as Murray says. We see this clearly in Romans 13:2, where those who receive (or incur) judgement are the objects or the recipients of it; they receive judgement in much the way that a boxer might receive severe blows to the head. Similarly, in Romans 1:5 those who ‘have received grace’ and in Romans 5:11 those who ‘have now received reconciliation’ are clearly the recipients of these effects in the same passive sense that a newborn baby receives life. My point is not that, according to Paul, salvation is possible apart from belief or faith; far from it. My point is that in 5:17 Paul was merely describing the effect of Christ’s righteous act upon its recipients, namely all humans, and comparing it to the effect of Adam’s disobedience; he was also pointing out that the former is far greater than (and therefore at least coextensive with) the latter."

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

Does Rom 5:17 restrict the 'all men' in Rom 5:18?

http://www.tentmaker.org/pdf/pauls_universalism_ch5_talbott.pdf

 

[Buzz_B]

Awesome... The Book of Revelation
It has been said, there are five ways to interpret the Book:
1) Historically, it all happened a long time ago.
2) Present, in our now, but mostly negative, as people try to fit the events of their day into its pages, wondering if these certain happenings fulfill the judgment and doom they have been told is to come, to signify times end, though they hope they can escape from it all.
3) Futuristically, it will all happen out there some time.
4) Idealistically, poetically, using mental images from which to form your ideals and values, etc.
5) All of the above, practicing parts of each. Perhaps that is how many view it today. Some of it is viewed historically, some of it is viewed prophetically, and betimes men look to see if it verifies the time table that "the end is upon us.'' While occasionally passages are used to draw images and pictures that men apply to their day, as they interpret various points and fit them together.

Revelations 1:1


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

Is this the one word is so that you spoke of? ‘signified” or signs and symbols.

Yes, that is the word I was referencing.

 

[Buzz_B]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf



There will be no "Non recievers".

As per Jason Pratt's & Tom Talbott's remarks at the following urls.

"... it is nearly certain that Paul was here using the word ‘receiving’ in a passive sense. In the words of John Murray, the ‘word ‘receiving’…does not refer [in 5:17] to our believing acceptance of the free gift but to our being made the recipients’ of it. Indeed, Paul rarely used ‘lambano’ (‘to receive’) in the sense of ‘to take hold’ or ‘to accept believingly’. To receive something in his sense is simply to be the object or the recipient of it, as Murray says. We see this clearly in Romans 13:2, where those who receive (or incur) judgement are the objects or the recipients of it; they receive judgement in much the way that a boxer might receive severe blows to the head. Similarly, in Romans 1:5 those who ‘have received grace’ and in Romans 5:11 those who ‘have now received reconciliation’ are clearly the recipients of these effects in the same passive sense that a newborn baby receives life. My point is not that, according to Paul, salvation is possible apart from belief or faith; far from it. My point is that in 5:17 Paul was merely describing the effect of Christ’s righteous act upon its recipients,
namely all humans, and comparing it to the effect of Adam’s disobedience; he was also pointing out that the former is far greater than (and therefore at least coextensive with) the latter."

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

Does Rom 5:17 restrict the 'all men' in Rom 5:18?

http://www.tentmaker.org/pdf/pauls_universalism_ch5_talbott.pdf

I appreciate what you are saying but the mistake you are making is that what was offered to all does not mean it was accepted by all. Adams sin caused all to fall into "condemnation." So when did the world as a whole come out from under that condemnation? It did when Jesus died as a sacrifice for the life of the world. John 6:51; John 12:47 At that point all the world being brought out from condemnation had the opportunity to believe or not believe: John 3:16

So what Romans 5:18 says is 100% true without having to mean that 100% of the world end up saved in Christ. You merely have your timing wrong. Many do reject that goodness of God preferring darkness to light because their works are wicked. Jesus' sacrifice ended the judgment which was on them by Adam's sin but they now must pay for their own sins unless they are willing to repent and cease from sin. Which of course happens gradually for those who have put on Christ so that they can learn to conquer sin.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I appreciate what you are saying but the mistake you are making is that what was offered to all does not mean it was accepted by all. Adams sin caused all to fall into "condemnation." So when did the world as a whole come out from under that condemnation? It did when Jesus died as a sacrifice for the life of the world. John 6:51; John 12:47 At that point all the world being brought out from condemnation had the opportunity to believe or not believe: John 3:16

So what Romans 5:18 says is 100% true without having to mean that 100% of the world end up saved in Christ. You merely have your timing wrong. Many do reject that goodness of God preferring darkness to light because their works are wicked. Jesus' sacrifice ended the judgment which was on them by Adam's sin but they now must pay for their own sins unless they are willing to repent.

It is not carnal man's nature to reject God?

1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.


No one has freewill to choose God. It was God will; not little Adams that Adam fell.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.



Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

 

[Buzz_B]

It is not carnal man's nature to reject God?

1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.


No one has freewill to choose God. It was God will; not little Adams that Adam fell.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.



Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

I feel particularly responsible for your confusion here as you likely learned much of that from me in the past. I was the ardent arguer against free-will and boy could I confuse both myself and others.

I now see that where I was wrong is that God does step in to help with our insufficiency IF we freely choose to actually put our whole heart and soul into being willing to work with him.

I will see if I can't explain it more point to point with what you have said here if you will give me time to do so. But you have said nothing in your post here that I did not used to argue my own self.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

More things fall under the scope of idolatry than many people realize. One does not have to know they are committing idolatry to commit idolatry. The same as one may think they have the right to sample fruit at the local grocery store without permission and not see it as theft. Many do it.

Lets not minimize the importance of listening to God that we will know what is and is not sin in his eyes.

Colossians 3:5-7 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them."

The Bible occasionally uses the word idolatry in an illustrative manner. I think Paul does it here because he is pointing out the motive behind idolatry which is covetousness. In other words people become idolaters because they are covetous. They attempt to secure something they have not earned, what does not belong to them via illegal means, via idolatry.

Why would I carp at something like this? Because there is no comparison as far as the enormity of the sin of actual idolatry verses the way Christians use it illustratively. It is all a part of that giant spiderweb of deceit. Let me explain.
In the pathetically myopic view of modern western Christians in lands that have Bibles in every household and have had the Gospel preached to them in power for centuries. They have no concept of what actual idolatry is, the extreme detrimental effects it has on a culture. They have never been to some corner of the world where actual idolaters have influence in a culture. They have even less knowledge of the ancient world where idolatry was imposed on the peoples as an instrument of control by despotic human government. The Gospel crushed not only idolatry but the power it had as a tool to be used by despotic human government. The people and the nations forsook it in mass.
That knowledge though, the great thing(s) God has accomplished in the earth through the Gospel, the Word and his invisible government is lost on most modern Christians. They actually believe with all their hearts in an absurdity of absurdities. That the world today is worse than it ever was as per their religious blinders put on via their fake end time teachings when the opposite is clearly visible. The notion that actual idolatry is somehow on par with the sins Christians will call idolatry is one way they perpetuate the blindness.
I mean we get our information about the Roman empire from movies like Cleopatra. Great movie made to entertain and sell which is their goal and nothing wrong with that. But normal life back in the empire then was rated XXX. They allude to this in those old movies but they have to make them view-able for the public. Since a picture is worth a thousand words one thing I like to do for folks who just can't comprehend this is to get them to watch a little clip from Mel Gibson's movie Apocolypto. So they can get some kind of comprehension what the parts of the ancient world that were not touched by any influence from the Kingdom of God was like. The four empires in the Bible were touched by the invisible kingdom of God so that their incredible idolatry did not run its full course into what this scene in the movie depicts. Keep in mind though. Most of the ancient world was not and the idolatry did in fact run its full course into these types of practices. This does not show the half of it. The cities were far greater in size, scope and population. Plus the public roasted and ate the sacrificed.

 

[Buzz_B]

The Bible occasionally uses the word idolatry in an illustrative manner. I think Paul does it here because he is pointing out the motive behind idolatry which is covetousness. In other words people become idolaters because they are covetous. They attempt to secure something they have not earned, what does not belong to them via illegal means, via idolatry.

Why would I carp at something like this? Because there is no comparison as far as the enormity of the sin of actual idolatry verses the way Christians use it illustratively. It is all a part of that giant spiderweb of deceit. Let me explain.
In the pathetically myopic view of modern western Christians in lands that have Bibles in every household and have had the Gospel preached to them in power for centuries. They have no concept of what actual idolatry is, the extreme detrimental effects it has on a culture. They have never been to some corner of the world where actual idolaters have influence in a culture. They have even less knowledge of the ancient world where idolatry was imposed on the peoples as an instrument of control by despotic human government. The Gospel crushed not only idolatry but the power it had as a tool to be used by despotic human government. The people and the nations forsook it in mass.
That knowledge though, the great thing(s) God has accomplished in the earth through the Gospel, the Word and his invisible government is lost on most modern Christians. They actually believe with all their hearts in an absurdity of absurdities. That the world today is worse than it ever was as per their religious blinders put on via their fake end time teachings when the opposite is clearly visible. The notion that actual idolatry is somehow on par with the sins Christians will call idolatry is one way they perpetuate the blindness.
I mean we get our information about the Roman empire from movies like Cleopatra. Great movie made to entertain and sell which is their goal and nothing wrong with that. But normal life back in the empire then was rated XXX. They allude to this in those old movies but they have to make them view-able for the public. Since a picture is worth a thousand words one thing I like to do for folks who just can't comprehend this is to get them to watch a little clip from Mel Gibson's movie Apocolypto. So they can get some kind of comprehension what the parts of the ancient world that were not touched by any influence from the Kingdom of God was like. The four empires in the Bible were touched by the invisible kingdom of God so that their incredible idolatry did not run its full course into what this scene in the movie depicts. Keep in mind though. Most of the ancient world was not and the idolatry did in fact run its full course into these types of practices. This does not show the half of it. The cities were far greater in size, scope and population. Plus the public roasted and ate the sacrificed.

While I do not disagree with everything you said, I do think you are missing the very simple point of what constitutes idolatry. Anything that we place in between us and our obedience to God so that we obey our passions toward it rather than God, serves as a false idol. It is just that simple. And any such thing is literal idolatry.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

While I do not disagree with everything you said, I do think you are missing the very simple point of what constitutes idolatry. Anything that we place in between us and our obedience to God so that we obey our passions toward it rather than God, serves as a false idol. It is just that simple. And any such thing is literal idolatry.

I am sorry. All sin is not the same. Not in the eyes of the law, the eyes of God or the effects it has on the soul, a culture or a nation. We are not in danger of being genocidally wiped off the planet in great judgement and catastrophes because Christians are spending more time watching TV than they are in their duties to God. They will reap what they sow but they are not sowing what actual idolaters sow and they have not opened the door to Satan to kill steal and destroy the way a nation of actual idolaters have.
The penalty by the way for falling into what the Aztecs fell into if there is no Gospel to stop it from happening is complete and total destruction, genocide.

 

[Buzz_B]

I am sorry. All sin is not the same. Not in the eyes of the law, the eyes of God or the effects it has on the soul, a culture or a nation. We are not in danger of being genocidally wiped off the planet in great judgement and catastrophes because Christians are spending more time watching TV than they are in their duties to God. They will reap what they sow but they are not sowing what actual idolaters sow and they have not opened the door to Satan to kill steal and destroy the way a nation of actual idolaters have.
The penalty by the way for falling into what the Aztecs fell into if there is no Gospel to stop it from happening is complete and total destruction, genocide.

Well, obviously I have said something that has ruffled your feathers or you would not be reading into what I say in such a negative way.

You are quite welcome to be sorry all you want but idolatry is as simple as Adam's putting Eve's requests ahead of God's commandment not to eat of that tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Adam made Eve his idol. And men have continued to do that ever since.

It is easy for one to deceive their own self with their own words. I know, for I was the master at it.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I feel particularly responsible for your confusion here as you likely learned much of that from me in the past. I was the ardent arguer against free-will and boy could I confuse both myself and others.

I now see that where I was wrong is that God does step in to help with our insufficiency IF we freely choose to actually put our whole heart and soul into being willing to work with him.

I will see if I can't explain it more point to point with what you have said here if you will give me time to do so. But you have said nothing in your post here that I did not used to argue my own self.

I do not see Adam freely choosing for Adam was just doing the will of God. Nor do i see carnal man choosing his own salvation for we are saved by grace not carnal man freely choosing. Plus carnal man is dead in trespasses and sins so how can a dead spiritual man choose something spiritual? other than the above I have no problem with freewill. but there are many things we cannot choose.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I am sorry. All sin is not the same. Not in the eyes of the law, the eyes of God or the effects it has on the soul, a culture or a nation. We are not in danger of being genocidally wiped off the planet in great judgement and catastrophes because Christians are spending more time watching TV than they are in their duties to God. They will reap what they sow but they are not sowing what actual idolaters sow and they have not opened the door to Satan to kill steal and destroy the way a nation of actual idolaters have.
The penalty by the way for falling into what the Aztecs fell into if there is no Gospel to stop it from happening is complete and total destruction, genocide.

You give Satan far to much power. Nothing happens outside of God's will

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Well, obviously I have said something that has ruffled your feathers or you would not be reading into what I say in such a negative way.

You are quite welcome to be sorry all you want but idolatry is as simple as Adam's putting Eve's requests ahead of God's commandment not to eat of that tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Adam made Eve his idol. And men have continued to do that ever since.

It is easy for one to deceive their own self with their own words. I know, for I was the master at it.

It has ruffled my feathers because to the Christian who does not know the horrendous effects of the idolatry of the ancient world and thinks idolatry is just about any sin has no concept whatsoever of what God has done in the earth thus far. Thereby no concept of what he can or will do in the future. We are no different than ancient Rome. Hear it all the time on these threads.

 

[Buzz_B]

I do not see Adam freely choosing for Adam was just doing the will of God. Nor do i see carnal man choosing his own salvation for we are saved by grace not carnal man freely choosing. Plus carnal man is dead in trespasses and sins so how can a dead spiritual man choose something spiritual? other than the above I have no problem with freewill. but there are many things we cannot choose.

It does not matter what either of us think for what we think will not change the reality. Adam did have free-will for no man can love without they have free-will. Love apart from free-will is mere compulsion.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

It does not matter what either of us think for what we think will not change the reality. Adam did have free-will for no man can love without they have free-will. Love apart from free-will is mere compulsion.

Freewill is not even scripture word when it comes to salvation? Did I say anything about love? You need to re-read my statement.