liberal approaches to homosexuality and transgender

[SkyWriting]

so you would be willing to say to them that their lifestyle is not sinful and that their relationship is a gift from God(which has been said about homosexuality)?

All relationships are from God, and my stand is consistant that
Sin is found in the heart after being influenced by the Holy Spirit.
Outsiders are rarely given access to the heart and so that sin is
invisible to and unjudgeable by others.

27 Bible verses about Judging Others - Knowing Jesus

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

All relationships are from God, and my stand is consistant that
Sin is found in the heart after being influenced by the Holy Spirit.
Outsiders are rarely given access to the heart and so that sin is
invisible to and unjudgeable by others.

27 Bible verses about Judging Others - Knowing Jesus

just to be clear, you affirm that incestial relationships are not sinful and are a gift from God?

 

[SkyWriting]

just to be clear, you affirm that incestial relationships are not sinful and are a gift from God?

Sin is found in the heart after being influenced by the Holy Spirit.
Outsiders are rarely given access to the heart and so that sin is
invisible to and unjudgeable by others.

There are legal complaints you can pursue, but not sin.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I see, so you believe a man marrying his daughter is not a sin and the relationship is blessed by God. gotcha.

I won't argue with you about it as you pointing out those 27 verses about judging, which actually don't say to never judge anyone but rather instruct us to judge with right judgement, shows that you're not willing to be intellectually honest about this.

proverbs 26:4

fell free to have the last word.

 

[Joe 73]

One difference is that with "conservative" (not a great term, but I think you know what I mean) teaching on this matter, homosexual persons are forbidden to have sexual relations - ever.

Regardless of one's beliefs, it's just not the same as "I like deli turkey and this other person likes deli ham, each of us needs to keep our desires in check." It doesn't have the same structure.

It might depend on who you talk two, but this is not what everyone believes. Homosexual persons aren't banned from marriage(between a man and a woman), though its likely a risky idea. and this view doesn't take into account that some homosexuals go through change. It's like saying pedophiles are forbidden from sexual relations, yes they are not allowed to have sex with children, but that doesn't mean the church is demanding celibacy their entire lives.

Maybe your statement was just a misconception or generalization though, and so I'm overstating my case.

 

[archer75]

It might depend on who you talk two, but this is not what everyone believes. Homosexual persons aren't banned from marriage(between a man and a woman), though its likely a risky idea. and this view doesn't take into account that some homosexuals go through change. It's like saying pedophiles are forbidden from sexual relations, yes they are not allowed to have sex with children, but that doesn't mean the church is demanding celibacy their entire lives.

Maybe your statement was just a misconception or generalization though, and so I'm overstating my case.

That's a fair clarification. I shouldn't have appeared to suggest that [any religious organization with "traditional"] views on the matter was demanding celibacy, or not exactly.

But think of it this way: suppose a civil or religious organization had the opposite take. Only opposite-sex marriages were permitted, and only sexual activity within marriage was permitted. In effect, the heterosexuals involved might say "since we're not into that kind of sex and aren't inclined to form that kind of intimate relationship with people of the same sex, in effect, this means, by your rules, that we can't have sex."

 

[Joe 73]

That's a fair clarification. I shouldn't have appeared to suggest that [any religious organization with "traditional"] views on the matter was demanding celibacy, or not exactly.

But think of it this way: suppose a civil or religious organization had the opposite take. Only opposite-sex marriages were permitted, and only sexual activity within marriage was permitted. In effect, the heterosexuals involved might say "since we're not into that kind of sex and aren't inclined to form that kind of intimate relationship with people of the same sex, in effect, this means, by your rules, that we can't have sex."

Correcting the typo, to "same sex marriages were permitted", this is an interesting, and non existent, concept, but I don't see the point its trying to make. But I also forgot to mention that I have struggled with homosexuality, you could probably label me as gay, so looking at it from a heterosexual perspective didn't bring up any different emotional reaction. Of course I see such a situation as very backwards, cause it goes against everything I know about God's design of gender and sexuality and marriage. I also consider homosexuality to be usually from developmental wounds. It's easier to move forward developmentally than backwards. I'm not ruling out marriage to the opposite sex, cause I very well might fall in love with someone. I just don't know. But I think in this reverse situation, it would never work, simply because of my developmental theory. I'm not saying that you have to get married, or claiming all gay people are capbable of moving in a heterosexual direction, but just bringing up that sidepoint.

 

[SkyWriting]

I see, so you believe a man marrying his daughter is not a sin and the relationship is blessed by God.

Sin is a contract in the heart between man and God.
Others cannot see your sins. In the same way, others
cannot see what are your blessings. Scripture covers
this extensively.

 

[SkyWriting]

But think of it this way: suppose a civil or religious organization had the opposite take. Only opposite-sex marriages were permitted, and only sexual activity within marriage was permitted. In effect, the heterosexuals involved might say "since we're not into that kind of sex and aren't inclined to form that kind of intimate relationship with people of the same sex, in effect, this means, by your rules, that we can't have sex."

I'm so glad your covering this point. When scripture was written there were no same-sex marriages performed by the community. As a result of this, all same sex couples were not married. And since
sex outside of marriage is verboten by God, then this extended to all gay couples even though
fidelity is asked of all people.

 

[SkyWriting]

It's like saying pedophiles are forbidden from sexual relations, yes they are not allowed to have sex with children, but that doesn't mean the church is demanding celibacy their entire lives.

From children, yes.

 

[SkyWriting]

Something like Liberal Christian does not exist it's just title that you choose . You either follow Christ or not , what you suggest here is since we are saved then let's accept homosexuality , which is and will always be Abomination to YAHWEH .

Actually it's sex outside of marriage that is the abomination. Not sexual orientation.

 

[archer75]

Correcting the typo, to "same sex marriages were permitted", this is an interesting, and non existent, concept, but I don't see the point its trying to make. But I also forgot to mention that I have struggled with homosexuality, you could probably label me as gay, so looking at it from a heterosexual perspective didn't bring up any different emotional reaction. Of course I see such a situation as very backwards, cause it goes against everything I know about God's design of gender and sexuality and marriage. I also consider homosexuality to be usually from developmental wounds. It's easier to move forward developmentally than backwards. I'm not ruling out marriage to the opposite sex, cause I very well might fall in love with someone. I just don't know. But I think in this reverse situation, it would never work, simply because of my developmental theory. I'm not saying that you have to get married, or claiming all gay people are capbable of moving in a heterosexual direction, but just bringing up that sidepoint.

Fair. I guess the idea was that if one was pretty clearly heterosexual, one might be struck by the "reversal." I don't know what your feelings are, but I'd be pretty solidly against marrying (civilly marrying or church marrying where permitted) another man no matter how much I liked him or how food domestic partners we made, since people expect a reciprocal sexual relationship in a marriage and I know that my not being interested would ultimately let him down and wreck the marriage.

By "reciprocal sexual relationship" I mean ine in which you meet each other's sexual desires and so deepen your emotional bond, etc.

It's hard for me to imagine why a gay / SSA man would consider marrying a woman who likes men, for the same reason. But I admit I just don't know. Not saying it works exactly the same way.

 

[SkyWriting]

It's hard for me to imagine why a gay / SSA man would consider marrying a woman who likes men, for the same reason. But I admit I just don't know. Not saying it works exactly the same way.

Most gay man I know had gay fathers married to their mom.
And one gay girl did.

 

[archer75]

Most gay man I know had gay fathers married to their mom.
And one gay girl did.

Okay, but I don't quite see how this addresses what you quoted.

 

[SkyWriting]

Okay, but I don't quite see how this addresses what you quoted.

OK. Gay men want what most people want with families and spouses and children and love.
Some try to make it work.

 

[hedrick]

Most gay man I know had gay fathers married to their mom.
And one gay girl did.

There's been lots of research on determinants of homosexuality. If all fathers of gay people were gay, we'd know that. Interestingly, there is evidence that gays often have "gay male uncles and cousins on the maternal side of the family" [Wikipedia]. Birth order also seems to have some effect. The chromosomal data seems to point to the X chromosome. If I recall my genetics, that has to come from the mother, right? But while many people think the cause is primarily biological (not just genetic though), there are almost certainly also environmental influences.

 

[SkyWriting]

There's been lots of research on determinants of homosexuality. If all fathers of gay people were gay, we'd know that.

In my anecdotal tally, I said most. Using common sense, why would
anyone promote the idea of gay people taking up heterosexual partners
if homoxexuality was either enviornmental or genetic?

 

[archer75]

OK. Gay men want what most people want with families and spouses and children and love.
Some try to make it work.

Okay, but still, as I suggested, unless the woman is somehow explicitly really really into the idea of never ever ever ever having a reciprocal sexual relationship with her husband, that seems like a really bad idea to me. Not to say that people who.have tried it are evil or anything. But it seems to utterlt defeat what most people want from marriage.

 

[SkyWriting]

Okay, but still, as I suggested, unless the woman is somehow explicitly really really into the idea of never ever ever ever having a reciprocal sexual relationship with her husband, that seems like a really bad idea to me. Not to say that people who.have tried it are evil or anything. But it seems to utterlt defeat what most people want from marriage.

Your going way past reality. Some gays do have sex and relationships and children with "the correct" gender then at some point switch to a gay lifestyle. The level of interest in either sex is not a set standard or level. My first romance was with a girl who after her husband died met a woman and started a family with her.
After splitting with her she still doesn't consider herself gay as she still only finds men attractive.
The upshot is that you never know.

 

[archer75]

Your going way past reality. Some gays do have sex and relationships and children with "the correct" gender then at some point switch to a gay lifestyle. The level of interest in either sex is not a set standard or level. My first romance was with a girl who after her husband died met a woman and started a family with her.
After splitting with her she still doesn't consider herself gay as she still only finds men attractive.
The upshot is that you never know.

Indeed, some do...but just having sex does not mean that you have a reciprocal sexual relationship. As in, mutually fulfilling, etc. It seems to me that that is exactly why so many men who are married with children later "switch" - because they were miserable, and if you're miserable, your partner can feel it.

I'm not saying it's impossible for gay men to have sex with women, of course.