John Prewett

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This is not sensible imo.
The Book of Revelation cannot be understood in isolation, it is replete with scriptural references.............

God addressed the Revelation to "servants of Jesus" .... it is the last book in the Bible ...
I am confident God knew that literate servants of Jesus would have a basic understanding of the Bible
before coming to the last book in the Bible.

So due to His basic understanding of Spiritual reality ....

the servant of Jesus would not be reading the Revelation "in isolation" ....

The Revelation is NOT replete with instructions to refer back to any other books of the Bible.

(much less instruct the reader to go to the "christian book store" and stock up on books purporting to explain the Revelation
while in fact they lead you into scads of speculations and interpretations and sidetracks)
 
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mark kennedy

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All of it Mark as it based on a Jesuit doctrine from the counter reformation. Expounded on by Darby and Scofield. If you are a protestant why would you be preaching counter protestant teaching?
I have no idea what Jesuit teaching is regards to eschatology, nor do I care. I'm a traditional evangelical and try always to focus on the apostolic witness. If that agrees with Jesuit teaching the so be it, I'm still a Protestant in every way that matters.
 
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A71

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John, you are flouting the rules of exegesis that Jesus himself gave:

52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

You cannot sever Revelation from the rest of the Bible.
 
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John Prewett

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John would be so kind as to give me your take on this prophecy.
Daniel 8:14
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

My "take on it" is that I don't need to even try to understand precisely what Daniel is referring to as it is something that has been fulfilled some 2000 years ago ... whereas what I do need to understand is the God Sent Revelation that is addressed to servants of Jesus and which reveals OUR end of era scenario ..... without need of any need to refer back to Daniel ....

(which would only lead to more unnecessary and counter productive confusing sidetrack debates over what Daniel meant)

The Revelation is SIMPLE .... a world king is coming .... He's thought to be dead ... he'll amaze the world .... the lost will worship him/image
and take his "mark" (which is now technologically INEVITABLE - cashless society) and later they will end up in the lake of fire.

The saved will NOT worship beast/image and will NOT take "mark" and will end up REIGNING WITH CHRIST.

SIMPLE TEST ....... SIMPLE TEST ..... SIMPLE TEST ..... just like Adam and EVE got a SIMPLE TEST .......

And clues allowing by name identification of the two Beast and the Great harlot are now in the public domain ....
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I have no idea what Jesuit teaching is regards to eschatology, nor do I care. I'm a traditional evangelical and try always to focus on the apostolic witness. If that agrees with Jesuit teaching the so be it, I'm still a Protestant in every way that matters.

You should care as you are listed as a Calvinist and this is what John Calvin believed, wrote and taught

The great French reformer, John Calvin, identified the Antichrist:

Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God...we affirm him to be the Pope…Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak.i
Others who identify the Antichrist
 
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John Prewett

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John, you are flouting the rules of exegesis that Jesus himself gave:

52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

You cannot sever Revelation from the rest of the Bible.
Guess you breezed right over my post 41 above. It's all I have to say on the subject.
 
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John Prewett

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You should care as you are listed as a Calvinist and this is what John Calvin believed, wrote and taught

The great French reformer, John Calvin, identified the Antichrist:

Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God...we affirm him to be the Pope…Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak.i
Others who identify the Antichrist
Well the great Calvin (with his predestination false doctrine) was wrong if he thought the Pope was either of the Beast.
Pope has enough on his plate being the head of the Great harlot Mystery Babylon.

Night all .... getting late on my side of the world.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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My "take on it" is that I don't need to even try to understand precisely what Daniel is referring to as it is something that has been fulfilled some 2000 years ago ... whereas what I do need to understand is the God Sent Revelation that is addressed to servants of Jesus and which reveals OUR end of era scenario ..... without need of any need to refer back to Daniel ....

(which would only lead to more unnecessary and counter productive confusing sidetrack debates over what Daniel meant)

The Revelation is SIMPLE .... a world king is coming .... He's thought to be dead ... he'll amaze the world .... the lost will worship him/image
and take his "mark" (which is now technologically INEVITABLE - cashless society) and later they will end up in the lake of fire.

The saved will NOT worship beast/image and will NOT take "mark" and will end up REIGNING WITH CHRIST.

SIMPLE TEST ....... SIMPLE TEST ..... SIMPLE TEST ..... just like Adam and EVE got a SIMPLE TEST .......

And clues allowing by name identification of the two Beast and the Great harlot are now in the public domain ....

so you do not consider the book of Daniel to have any relevance to current era, is that what you are saying? That it is fulfilled therefor we do not need to understand it?

Are you saying that the "mark" is a cashless society?
 
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A71

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But since you seem to be the one doing the "breezing past" John, I will reiterate my point, so it is not lost on you. The Book Of Daniel is about the Kingdom Of God. (Not exclusively obviously, but it is certainly a very important thing in the Book)

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

And Jesus explicitly taught regarding his kingdom, so there is no shadow of doubt on this I am afraid, the following:

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

So it is there in black and white, not that I really think for most people it needs stressing, that when discussing the Kingdom of God we refer back to the Old Testament, and also we learn new things in the New Testament. Your desire to divorce Revelation from the body of scripture is illicit in my view, and calling me arrogant (puffed up) for connecting Daniel To Revelation was a bit cheeky don't you think?
 
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A71

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That's easy enough, the tribulation is the last of the seventy sevens. The sixty ninth ended with the crucified Messiah and since then the commencement of the last seven years has been on hold. It starts with the opening of the seals and the first four seals describe the rise of the antichrist. Half way through the tribulation, three and a half years, the abomination that causes desolation begins the second half of the tribulation sometimes called the great tribulation. The final wave of judgments are the pouring out of the vials of wrath that devastates the kingdom of the antichrist.

This is all pretty basic stuff, not sure what you might disagree with here.
Except that Jesus said that all these things would come on his generation, which is a bit disruptive if you want to project Daniel's 70th week into the future
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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I see a lot of people making hopelessly wrong statements about Revelation because they do not have a clue about the Book Of Daniel, and I mean this in the nicest possible way.

Daniel and Revelation interlock, and Revelation is the prophetic continuation of Daniel. That is why John is called 'the beloved disciple', because Our Lord was showing us that he is like Daniel, who was "greatly beloved" (Dan 9:23), a "man greatly beloved" (Dan10:19).
John wrote Revelation therefore because he is the prophetic successor of Daniel, just as John the Baptist succeeded Elijah.

We can understand Revelation to some extent without understanding Daniel, but it will be a limited understanding.
Blessings to all.
I agree with you but would go back to the understanding of Dan and Revelation has to be in context of the entire rest of the Bible. The parallel course of Daniel and Revelation will wind down the boundaries of the rest of the Bible to fulfill every prophecy made in both new and old testaments. The 66 books contain one message and proclaim a certain destiny.
 
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A71

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I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. The Jubilee was like every fifty years, land was returned and captives freed. Relating the end times to the feasts and events like Jubiles is all very interesting but I fail to see a direct connection to Daniel.
Daniel actually segues into Revelation Mark. I am understanding it better (I think!) as I go along. I've genuinely never had the foggiest about Revelation, but I am now understanding it only because I understand Daniel, (imo), quite well. Of course I am always learning new things, so am hesitant saying the above, but when I threw down the Bible in 2010 and complained to God it made no sense, when I picked it up again in 2013 he took me through Daniel. I believe for a very good reason...
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Except that Jesus said that all these things would come on his generation, which is a bit disruptive if you want to project Daniel's 70th week into the future
Jesus said no two stones of the Temple would be left touching one another. The disciples asked his when will this be and what are the signs of your coming and the end of the age. The signs Jesus gave for the end of the age and his coming are not the same as the signs for the destruction of Jerusalem. So the destruction of Jerusalem did happen in that generation.

Think about the difficulty rating in predicting not only the destruction of the temple in 70 AD but then to predict the scattering of Israel into all the nations and from their regather Israel as a nation and bring back the temple sacrifices after almost 2000 years. The futurist can point to the current state of events and show a one world (satanic) Illuminati government is intended with a cashless system. They can show that Israel has prepared everything necessary to resume the sacrifices. They can ask who were the two witnesses in 70AD what was teh mark of the beast or image of the beast in 70AD. I admit Nero was a type of things to play out in the future just like Nebuchadnezzar's image and Goliath but the specific events are ready to unfold with a much more literal fulfillment in sight.

Those who hold to it all happened in 70AD are like those in Noah's day and can see the ark and laugh off its significance. Why would the stage set up exactly again as it is now?
 
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mark kennedy

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Daniel actually segues into Revelation Mark. I am understanding it better (I think!) as I go along. I've genuinely never had the foggiest about Revelation, but I am now understanding it only because I understand Daniel, (imo), quite well. Of course I am always learning new things, so am hesitant saying the above, but when I threw down the Bible in 2010 and complained to God it made no sense, when I picked it up again in 2013 he took me through Daniel. I believe for a very good reason...
There is a commonality between the two, Revelations expands on Daniel a lot. I'm glad your starting to make these kind of connections, for me it was the Psalms and the gospels. I still find myself at a loss but for the longest time many of the prophets were a mystery, I I broke threw with a study into the eighth century prophets. I'm glad your making a breakthrough, wish you continued success.
 
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pinbackbsc04

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That is based upon your own understanding.
To whom it is revealed, it is revealed.
To whom it is not, it is not.
That is why he spoke to them in parables.
Let he who hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
You also are adding to the prophecy that is revealed in Revelation.


Well, if that's the case, then the OP and thousands upon thousands of well-respected theologians are all "adding to the prophecy that is revealed in Revelation," because his statements reflect a commonly-held exegesis linking the two books of the Bible...
 
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A71

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Jesus said no two stones of the Temple would be left touching one another. The disciples asked his when will this be and what are the signs of your coming and the end of the age. The signs Jesus gave for the end of the age and his coming are not the same as the signs for the destruction of Jerusalem. So the destruction of Jerusalem did happen in that generation.

What Jesus said was that Jerusalem would be left a ruin. The disciples asked when would that be. Implicit in their question is the understanding that Jerusalem would be rebuilt, so what they are asking is a double question really: 'when will the Temple be a ruin?' is two questions.

When will it be thrown down?
And
When will it be restored?

The destruction of Jerusalem assuredly happened in AD70.
However, this is why in Luke Jesus replies by referring to events post the destruction, because he is answering two questions, not one.
 
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