Transcript of Oral Argument Masterpiece Cake Shop vs. Colorado Civil Rights Division

[KCfromNC]

In 1994 when the business was first licensed they were not signing up for this change in the law.

But gee officer, when I got my license 25 years ago the speed limit on this road was 55.

They haven't followed any new law passed in the last ~25 years? Or are they singling out this particular situation because it gives them a shot at discriminating against gay people?

 

[bhsmte]

But gee officer, when I got my license 25 years ago the speed limit on this road was 55.

They haven't followed any new law passed in the last ~25 years? Or are they singling out this particular situation because it gives them a shot at discriminating against gay people?

Agree. Laws change and they can change quite often.

 

[KCfromNC]

]It is illogical to assert the baker doesn’t want to serve the customer because he’s fifteen when the baker serves customers who are 15.

He refuses to serve them some things he'd serve an older customer, though. The fact he doesn't discriminate due to age in every circumstance doesn't excuse the situations in which he does.

The Colorado law is the basis of the law at issue. The law prohibits discrimination “because of” certain enumerated characteristics in the statute. The statute is a causation statute. It prohibits discrimination when the cause is some protected characteristic. Ergo, like any causation, if the cause can be shown to be something other than a characteristic in the statute, then the statute isn’t violated.

Yep, all the baker has to do is show that gay weddings are totally unrelated to the gender and orientation of the people getting married. When is he going to start?

 

[KCfromNC]

They were wanting a cake to celebrate something that was illegal.

What law was broken?

 

[KCfromNC]

This is false. Indeed, during oral argument, attorneys for respondents admitted the baker would refuse a wedding cake for a same sex couple for ANY customer who asked for it.

Seems like a pretty weak rationalization to me. "I'd refuse to rent an apartment to someone living in a black household regardless of their race" doesn't read like a winner to me.

Now, you haven’t adequately addressed the paradox of the baker is refusing service because they are same sex but serves them all sorts of other goods/products.

And you still haven't explained how "I don't discriminate against every gay customer all the time" is a defense for the cases in which a business owner does.

Straight customers buying a wedding cake for a same sex couple getting married is not an unknown phenomenon.

Yes, that is the assertion. Hopefully the people using it to defend the baker's discrimination will be able to show something of substance behind the claim.

 

[KCfromNC]

It doesn't seem like he is only targeting gay customers since he serves everyone regardless if they are gay, and same-sex wedding cakes are not the only cakes that he doesn't create.

Problem here is that the only thing distinguishing same-sex wedding cakes from the ones he does sell is the orientation and gender of the customers buying them.

 

[KCfromNC]

There is actually a recently passed law in Mississippi called "Protecting Freedom of Conscience from Government Discrimination Act" to protect people who hold religious beliefs or moral convictions that marriage is the union of one and one woman, from being persecuted because of those beliefs. So if Masterpiece Cakeshop and Sweet Cakes by Melissa were in Mississippi, they would have been protected and not punished by their state government.

I'm not convinced. The baker is being punished for his actions - and if this thread has shown us anything, people are very keen to separate actions from identity when it comes to civil rights protections.

 

[KCfromNC]

45. As the creator of a wedding cake, I believe that I am an important part of the wedding celebration for the couple, and my creations are a central component of the wedding. By creating a wedding cake for the couple, I am an active participant and I am associated with the event.

46. A wedding cake communicates that a wedding has occurred, a marriage has begun, and the couple should be celebrated.​

How does this claim fit with the idea he'd sell a cake off the shelf to anyone who comes through the door? Seems like he'd risk being an active participant in all sorts of un-Biblical unions. His story is not adding up.

 

[HannahT]

I'm not convinced. The baker is being punished for his actions - and if this thread has shown us anything, people are very keen to separate actions from identity when it comes to civil rights protections.

I think people are trying to wrap their heads around both parties, and trying to come up with something that seems fair to all. I realize you only wish to think the worse of one party, because you have trouble with the man's belief system. Yet, we should try to accommodate both.

How does this claim fit with the idea he'd sell a cake off the shelf to anyone who comes through the door? Seems like he'd risk being an active participant in all sorts of un-Biblical unions. His story is not adding up.

It's pretty simple if you understood the difference between stock items, and custom ones.

 

[Hank77]

But gee officer, when I got my license 25 years ago the speed limit on this road was 55.

They haven't followed any new law passed in the last ~25 years? Or are they singling out this particular situation because it gives them a shot at discriminating against gay people?

Do you remember what you posted? That was what I was answering to.

 

[Hank77]

What law was broken?

ssm was not legal in the state of Colorado. Did the state of Colorado recognize their ss marriage? It was until June 2015 that the SCOTUS ruled ssm legal in all fifty states.

 

[bhsmte]

I think people are trying to wrap their heads around both parties, and trying to come up with something that seems fair to all. I realize you only wish to think the worse of one party, because you have trouble with the man's belief system. Yet, we should try to accommodate both.



It's pretty simple if you understood the difference between stock items, and custom ones.

The public accommodation laws would impact a product a business sells as a normal course of business. If a baker has a catalog of different cakes they make for customers and they offer them as a regular course of their business, the law states they can't discriminate with these products against a protected class.

If someone asks for a product they don't sell as a normal course, they could refuse anyone.

 

[Hank77]

The public accommodation laws would impact a product a business sells as a normal course of business. If a baker has a catalog of different cakes they make for customers and they offer them as a regular course of their business, the law states they can't discriminate with these products against a protected class.

If someone asks for a product they don't sell as a normal course, they could refuse anyone.

Do we know there was a catalog or that the couple wanted a cake that he had made before?

 

[bhsmte]

Do we know there was a catalog or that the couple wanted a cake that he had made before?

People who do wedding cakes, typically have catalogs (pictures) of the different types of styles they sell.

 

[Maren]

ssm was not legal in the state of Colorado. Did the state of Colorado recognize their ss marriage? It was until June 2015 that the SCOTUS ruled ssm legal in all fifty states.

Yet that wasn't your claim, your claim is the gay couple wanted "a cake to celebrate something that was illegal." Again, what were they wanting to celebrate that was against the law, and what type of criminal penalties were there for breaking the law?

 

[Maren]

I think people are trying to wrap their heads around both parties, and trying to come up with something that seems fair to all. I realize you only wish to think the worse of one party, because you have trouble with the man's belief system. Yet, we should try to accommodate both.

It's pretty simple if you understood the difference between stock items, and custom ones.

That appears to be what Colorado has attempted to do. What Colorado is saying is that any cake the baker may sale to the general public he should be willing to sale to gays. So something like a plain white wedding cake or one of the cakes in his catalog, he should have no issue baking for them. If they wanted some type of design he wouldn't make; things like having two men as a cake topper, writing a message that being gay is best, etc. he would not need to make it. The issue that the Colorado decision made is that if the baker had been willing to sale them a cake for their wedding, but objected to the design they requested, the baker would have been fine. But telling them that he would not sell them any cake for their wedding was discrimination.

 

[Hank77]

People who do wedding cakes, typically have catalogs (pictures) of the different types of styles they sell.

I am very aware of this. Is this the case at the Phillips bakery? Just wondering if you know.

 

[bhsmte]

I am very aware of this. Is this the case at the Phillips bakery? Just wondering if you know.

Don't know. But, when someone comes in to order a wedding cake, they would have to have a way to visualize all of the designs they offer.

 

[Hank77]

Don't know. But, when someone comes in to order a wedding cake, they would have to have a way to visualize all of the designs they offer.

Thanks, I thought maybe you had read something I hadn't.

That isn't how it always works. People bring photos from wedding periodicals, photos of cakes they have seen at other weddings, or even just a vision they have in their heads. Fondant bride and groom, created by a baker/artist, that looks just like them....and not to be eaten.


Military Wedding Topper-Private Order

 

[Maren]

Thanks, I thought maybe you had read something I hadn't.

That isn't how it always works. People bring photos from wedding periodicals, photos of cakes they have seen at other weddings, or even just a vision they have in their heads. Fondant bride and groom, created by a baker/artist, that looks just like them....and not to be eaten.


Military Wedding Topper-Private Order

Which is fine. In this case, in the original decision, it was stated that they never talked about what the design might be -- that the baker told them, as soon as they wanted a cake for "their" wedding, that he would not make it. The judge stated that, had they talked about a design, that the baker could have refused to bake a cake based on the design -- since he refused to make any cake, he ruled that it was discrimination.