LDS Joseph Smith Started a False Religion

[Jane_Doe]

I haven't made it a point to study Mormon teachings. Given your personal experience from within Mormonism you likely know more than me about what they mean by "becoming gods". It doesn't matter to the Orthodox Christians who belong to the Holy Apostolic Tradition That's over 2000 years old. A two hundred year old start up sect/cult isn't taken seriously as a contender for Truth. 500-600 year old reformist groups whose foundation is strongly a "protest against Roman Catholicism" don't fare well from where we sit either, any more than the Roman Church's definitions of papal "supremacy" (which supplanted papal "primacy"), that originally helped to create the divide between the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church over 1000 years ago.

All that aside, we should be thankful that you're no longer a member of what started out as a cult, even if it has become somewhat more socially acceptable to belong to LDS these days. This has more to do with our living in a society that mostly doesn't care about God based religions. Rather, the religion of "mammon" is predominant. This is where our greater "tolerance" is coming from.

I appreciate this (your) renunciation and denouncement of the cult.

Truefiction1, I respect your faith and relationship with Christ, despite our differences. I have very much enjoyed our exchanges in the past. This post though...it hurts very badly when you completely deny my relationship with Christ and label me as being in a "cult". Especially when you know so little about me and my relationship with Christ. Please, if you're wanting to hear anything about it, just ask. I always welcome a conversation about Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

The Bible itself used "god" - note the little "g" - as a title for exalted beings, both mortal and immortal. However, these individuals are still lower in status than God himself.

This is a key distinction that many critics of the church miss when talking about our theology.

That is an interesting point. I sometimes blur that line. Yes we can become 'like' God himself. We can be as holy, as perfect, etc., etc., etc., but he will always be on a higher status than us. Always higher than us. Even though we can become magnificent perfectly exalted men an women, with god-like attributes, we will always be looking up to Him and praying to Him and looking to Him for love and instruction.

 

[drstevej]

That is an interesting point. I sometimes blur that line. Yes we can become 'like' God himself. .... we will always be looking up to Him and praying to Him and looking to Him for love and instruction.

Once again Heavenly Mother gets no mention. Is she an embarrassment?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Once again Heavenly Mother gets no mention. Is she an embarrassment?

Hi Steve. We're talking about Christ right now. Would you like to talk about Him with us?

 

[Peter1000]

Theosis ("deification," "divinization") is the process of a worshiper becoming free of hamartía("missing the mark"), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection.

Being united with God????????? How does that manifest itself?????????????

For Orthodox Christians, Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation. Théōsis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartía — which is not to be confused with hamártēma “sin”) for participation in the Life (zōé, not simply bíos) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

So for Orthodox, this means that even an infant is saved from a state of unholiness for participation in the Life of the Trinity?? How does that manifest itself??????????

The emphasis here is on participation, transformation, and experiential change, rather than a judicial declaration of legal status. This distinction is central to the different attitude Orthodox and the Reformed have toward the fullness of salvation in Christ.

So what is the distinction between Orthodox and Reformed??? Does one participate, transform, and experience a change in their divine nature, and the other one just declares a different legal status??? Which one does which.

You have researched a very interesting scripture. One of those 'meat' scriptures that find itself in the text now and then. So here it is:
2 Peter 1:3-4King James Version (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This scripture tells us some interesting things:
1) God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. IOW we have been given all that we need by God and his divine power to become gods like Him.
2) He has called us to this glory and virtue.
3) We have been given exceedingly great and precious promises and by these we may:
4) be partakers, not just participants, but actual partakers of His divine nature. IOW, we wil be like Him in all ways. Having the same qualities of holiness and perfection and exaltation, having the same omni's.

It is also true that our God will always be on a higher level than we are. We will always be looking to Him for instruction, love, and help. Our God will always be Our God.

I guess the Orthodox believe we can also become like God if not united with God in the Trinity. Explain that if you would??????? Sounds familiar with Mormonism.

Does the Reformed have a similar doctrine?????????[/QUOTE]

 

[Peter1000]

Once again Heavenly Mother gets no mention. Is she an embarrassment?

Heaven no, just not enough information to answer your question at this time.

 

[Peter1000]

And Mormon scripture states:
Doctrine and Covenants 88
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

Does the bible not say that we will be joint heirs with Jesus. Is that the same as being equal with him?

 

[truefiction1]

Truefiction1, I respect your faith and relationship with Christ, despite our differences. I have very much enjoyed our exchanges in the past. This post though...it hurts very badly when you completely deny my relationship with Christ and label me as being in a "cult". Especially when you know so little about me and my relationship with Christ. Please, if you're wanting to hear anything about it, just ask. I always welcome a conversation about Christ.

It's not to deny your relationship with Christ that I labeled Mormonism a cult. It's for other reasons that I did this. Usually, a person Who attains to Knowledge of the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the agency of the Holy Spirit, is led by God to a place where the Living Water gushes forth most abundantly. All such journeys are perilous because of the invisible enemy. But some do find their Way by the will and Power of God. I've met them on rare occasions.

 

[Peter1000]

Not speaking for the Mormons, but "Theosis" is a teaching of the Bible, and of the Ancient Orthodox Christian Church of the Apostolic succession. Theosis is the process by which those who believe in God are being transformed "from glory to glory" into God. (2 Corinthians 3:18). This is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Point well made. But I believe 2 Pete 1:4-5 does a better job of explaining that process. Thank you for this information, it is very similar to what Mormons believe.

 

[Peter1000]

ihttp://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/9602

""After men have got their exaltations and their crowns -- have become Gods, even the sons of God -- are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. **Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles**. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children.""

Notice that is not a small "g". And as for popping out spiritual babies----OK, I should have had better manners than to say "pop"---I should have said--as did Brigham Young----produce. As to how do you pop out spiritual babies that you keep asking---you tell us--how do you produce spiritual babies?

I am the one that asked you, how do we pop out spiritual babies?

The answer is we do not know. It has not been given to us at this point. It is a tantalizing subject, but it is not necessary to know this information in order to be saved, so at this time, Jesus has withheld that information. He has just given us a glimpse of what being like God looks like. He gives us this small piece of information to help us in our quest to overcome this world and be as perfect and holy as He is. And therefore be able to do the same kinds of things that He does throughout the eternities.

I want to be engaged and expanding, not stopped and wondering.

 

[truefiction1]

You realize that your religion was considered a cult at one time?????????

Time has mostly erased those beginnings, but not obliterated them, so it would not be appropriate for you to call any religion a cult.

Oh, the Jewish religion has been around for 3400 years, So if time is the center-piece for truth, are you considering converting to the Jewish religion? Remember, at one time they were a Christian religion.

My religion is the very cult that Jesus Christ founded upon Himself and the preaching of His Apostles and the sending of the Holy Spirit. My religion is the continuation of the Jewish religion, as fulfilled in the Savior. It is the Savior's religion. Mormonism only began when a man named Joseph Smith, a product of reformation religious culture, was visited by an angel, called "Moroni", I believe, and was instructed to bring a different gospel to the people than the Gospel upheld in the Holy Tradition of the ancient Church -- upheld by the Power of the Holy Spirit breathing in Her.

The Prophet Mohammed who founded the religion of Islam was also visited by an archangel, Gabriel, who instructed him to bring a different gospel to the people than the Gospel upheld in the Holy Tradition of the ancient Church -- upheld by the Power of the Holy Spirit breathing in Her.

We should begin to see a sort of pattern here.

I've discovered that it's a matter of Life and death to remain in the "Cult" of The Word of God and the Spirit of God, and to reject all these other, newer cults.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It's not to deny your relationship with Christ that I labeled Mormonism a cult.

Yeah... that's like me saying "Eastern Orthodox is a cult, but there are some Christians there".... it totally doesn't float well.
Note: obviously I don't believe EO is a cult (the above is me trying to explain how I feel). EO is a Christian faith that helps many nourish relationships with Him. I would never degrade EO, you, or your relationship with Christ as a "cult". Nor would I say it is death for you to remain EO. And I do all this while still acknowledging the differences in our beliefs.

 

[truefiction1]

Theosis ("deification," "divinization") is the process of a worshiper becoming free of hamartía("missing the mark"), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For Orthodox Christians, Théōsis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation. Théōsis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartía — which is not to be confused with hamártēma “sin”) for participation in the Life (zōé, not simply bíos) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

This is not to be confused with the heretical (apothéōsis) - "Deification in God’s Essence", which is imparticipable.
Theosis - OrthodoxWiki

2 Peter 1:4
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (NIV)

The phrase “participate in the divine nature” (NIV) or “partakers of the divine nature” (KJV, OSB) is a translation of: “γένησθε θείας κοινωνοὶ φύσεως.” [Greek NT] The Greek for “participate” or “share” is κοινωνος (koinonos) which has a range of meanings. It has been used with reference to sharing in glory (1 Peter 5:1), sharing in Christ’s suffering (Philippians 3:10), and fellowship in the Holy Spirit (Philippians 2:1). It can have a spiritual/sacramental sense. Participation in a religious service, Christian or otherwise, has definite spiritual consequences. Participation in a pagan sacrifice results in participation with demonic forces (1 Corinthians 10:20) and likewise participation in the Eucharist results in participation in Christ’s body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16). The emphasis here is on participation, transformation, and experiential change, rather than a judicial declaration of legal status. This distinction is central to the different attitude Orthodox and the Reformed have toward the fullness of salvation in Christ.
Theosis and Our Salvation in Christ - Orthodox Reformed Bridge


This is totally different from what Mormons teach; that's for sure!

Even if some Mormons have an accurate comprehension of the concept of Theosis, it would still not be reason enough for us to join them. The whole Life of the Orthodox Church, all Her Holy teachings, sacred rites, practices, prayers and all other such Holy phenomenon are for the sake of growing our Communion with God. These have evolved and been perfected over the whole Lifetime of the Church, since the time She was founded by Christ and the preaching of His Apostles and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh.

Theosis must not be a mere concept. It must be Lived. But ancient Christianity is so alien a religion to the typical child of the radical reformation that, unfortunately, most wouldn't be able to recognize it as Christianity. I know from my own personal experience that the enemy spirits are able to quickly bring to the attention of outsiders to many aspects of Orthodox Christian worship which are very easily mistaken for what they are not. This they do in order to prevent entry into the Church, so as to prevent, or at least limit that person's Theosis. I've heard demon's shouting Scripture at certain people as they look at Orthodox worship from the outside of the Life in the Holy Spirit, crying out in a mighty voice: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a lair of demons. She is a haunt for every unclean spirit, a hideout for every unclean bird, and a hold for every detestable beast... Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.…" (Revelation 18:2-4)

Plenty have heeded such voices.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Even if some Mormons have an accurate comprehension of the concept of Theosis, it would still not be reason enough for us to join them.

I'm confused. No one here is asking that or even mentioned it.... (sorry if I'm being dense here in not seeing the connection).

Theosis must not be a mere concept. It must be Lived. But ancient Christianity is so alien a religion to the typical child of the radical reformation that, unfortunately, most wouldn't be able to recognize it as Christianity.

I do. I think that aspect of EO is absolutely beautiful. Amazing, in fact. Something to indeed be treasured.

I know from my own personal experience that the enemy spirits are able to quickly bring to the attention of outsiders to many aspects of Orthodox Christian worship which are very easily mistaken for what they are not.

That is totally true. It makes my blood boil when people do this intentionally (against Orthodox or any other faith).

 

[truefiction1]

Yeah... that's like me saying "Eastern Orthodox is a cult, but there are some Christians there".... it totally doesn't float well.

There's likely a lot more truth in this statement of yours than you think: the "wheat and the tares".

 

[Jane_Doe]

There's likely a lot more truth in this statement of yours than you think: the "wheat and the tares".

Again, I feel a person can recognize the good (and bad) in another faith without having to use labels like "cult". For example, I'm obviously not EO, but I do see much beauty there (seeing good) even though I don't share certain parts of those beliefs (I'm not EO personally for a reason). I can admire you beauty without "same differencing" us or deluting/threatening my beliefs. And I do like hear EO voices sing their joy in Christ- such makes my own heart jump for joy.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am the one that asked you, how do we pop out spiritual babies?

The answer is we do not know. It has not been given to us at this point. It is a tantalizing subject, but it is not necessary to know this information in order to be saved, so at this time, Jesus has withheld that information. He has just given us a glimpse of what being like God looks like. He gives us this small piece of information to help us in our quest to overcome this world and be as perfect and holy as He is. And therefore be able to do the same kinds of things that He does throughout the eternities.

I want to be engaged and expanding, not stopped and wondering.

The answer is---you don't. According to Jesus, there is no marriage in heaven--period. I will take His word over that of JS any day over anhything. He made no qualification for that, not certain people, just---there is no marriage after the resurrection. Believe a man over Jesus if you want.

 

[truefiction1]

@Jane_Doe, I'm coming from a place where it's obvious that the enemy of salvation uses heresy and schism to create an atmosphere and a terrain that increasingly makes it more difficult to find the True Christ amidst all of the confusion, chaos, and false Christ's that are being propagated all around. It is an overall effective means of invalidating the Gospel of Christ, and the goal is to remove Christ (to get Him out of the way) so that the "man of sin" can come into power. New religions add to the chaos that serve the enemy's ends, as well as hindering the walks of those who are members due to flawed understandings about God and our Life in Him.

Point is, I don't approve of the existence of any religious body that is cut off from the Church, including Roman Catholicism and all of the reformed Churches that were born of it. I may recognize the grace of God in some of their members though, and love to see the fruits of repentance bared out by anyone seeking to please All-Holy God. Any work of God, that He does in you or any other person of True Faith in Him, I wouldn't dare to call evil. I'm not attacking your faith that you have. I'm attacking the things that separate us.

But don't worry... I can't continue to do this here. I'm like a fish out of water now and don't sense that the Holy Spirit is approving my work here in this forum. It's high time for me to just pray.

Lord save us all.

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Jane_Doe, I'm coming from a place where it's obvious that the enemy of salvation uses heresy and schism to create an atmosphere and a terrain that increasingly makes it more difficult to find the True Christ amidst all of the confusion, chaos, and false Christ's that are being propagated all around. It is an overall effective means of invalidating the Gospel of Christ, and the goal is to remove Christ (to get Him out of the way) so that the "man of sin" can come into power. New religions add to the chaos that serve the enemy's ends, as well as hindering the walks of those who are members due to flawed understandings about God and our Life in Him.

Yep, I live in that same world.

Point is, I don't approve of the existence of any religious body that is cut off from the Church, including Roman Catholicism and all of the reformed Churches that were born of it. I may recognize the grace of God in some of their members though, and love to see the fruits of repentance bared out by anyone seeking to please All-Holy God. Any work of God, that He does in you or any other person of True Faith in Him, I wouldn't dare to call evil. I'm not attacking your faith that you have. I'm attacking the things that separate us.

Calling another person's beloved love of Christ a "cult" IS separating. It drives wedges between those people that do love Christ.

I live in the same world you do- the adversary wants nothing more than to remove Christ from our lives, our families, our communities. He wants to divide Christians and make them all stumble. And he's very crafty, and the hearts of fallen men are so easily corrupted. That's why I can't turn my back on any one who holds Christ's light- even if they are a tiny babe in faith or still cling to some falsehoods. That light they hold, however small it is still Christ's light. I want with every fiber of my being to celebrate that light, to help the light holder nurture it (which is actually Christ doing the nurturing, but you know what I mean).

Hence, I celebrate your light (which is in no way small, but glowing and beautiful). May God continue to be with you.

 

[Rescued One]

Unless you can open your mind to what it is saying then no matter what I say will me nothing to you.

My mind is always open to truth. That's why I'm studying God's word. You make excuses for not answering questions. That's okay.