Early church opposition to endless hell

[ArmyMatt]

If he is all powerful & his child would be tortured forever if he didn't annihilate her, or force her to be saved, if he allows her to be tortured forever then he is not a loving father, but a monster. Would you let her be tortured forever? Do you think Love Crucified is less loving than you?

there's the issue, love is always free, so it is never forced. love does not annihilate. so He is a loving Father. the problem is you are judging God's love by fallen man's standards.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If he is all powerful & his child would be tortured forever if he didn't annihilate her, or force her to be saved, if he allows her to be tortured forever then he is not a loving father, but a monster. Would you let her be tortured forever? Do you think Love Crucified is less loving than you?

To be "tortured forever" implies someone is actively, purposely torturing a person.

I think that is misleading.

They will experience torment ... not because someone is poking them with a pitchfork or stretching them on the rack or dousing them with flames ... but because they realize Who God truly is, and how they spent their lives, and what they themselves have become.

God isn't tormenting or torturing anyone, or even allowing them to be tortured by some other being. It is the natural state of profound regret - if regret could be a strong enough word. (I fear it is not.)

 

[Lukaris]

There is no individual guarantee of heaven or hell but there is the individual consequence of heaven or hell ( Matthew 25:31-45 , John 5:22-30 , Romans 2 , Revelation 20:12-15 , Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 , Ezekiel 33:10-20 , Daniel 12:1-4 etc. ).

 

[ClementofA]

To be "tortured forever" implies someone is actively, purposely torturing a person.

I think that is misleading.

They will experience torment ... not because someone is poking them with a pitchfork or stretching them on the rack or dousing them with flames ... but because they realize Who God truly is, and how they spent their lives, and what they themselves have become.

God isn't tormenting or torturing anyone, or even allowing them to be tortured by some other being. It is the natural state of profound regret - if regret could be a strong enough word. (I fear it is not.)

My post spoke of him "allowing" her to be tortured, not poking her with a pitchfork:

"If he is all powerful & his child would be tortured forever if he didn't annihilate her, or force her to be saved, if he allows her to be tortured forever then he is not a loving father, but a monster. Would you let her be tortured forever? Do you think Love Crucified is less loving than you?"

Clearly he is not the direct cause of the endless torments. But the fact he can stop them but refuses to do so makes him a monster.

 

[prodromos]

All of those relatively momentary light sufferings God is able to (and will) work together for good. Nothing good comes of beings who are tormented for trillions X trillions X trillions of millenniums, when in light of eternity their sufferings will have only just begun.

Eternity will not involve the passing of time as we currently experience it.

 

[buzuxi02]

My post spoke of him "allowing" her to be tortured, not poking her with a pitchfork:

"If he is all powerful & his child would be tortured forever if he didn't annihilate her, or force her to be saved, if he allows her to be tortured forever then he is not a loving father, but a monster. Would you let her be tortured forever? Do you think Love Crucified is less loving than you?"

Clearly he is not the direct cause of the endless torments. But the fact he can stop them but refuses to do so makes him a monster.

In St. Gregory of Nyssa the 'torture' is derived from what he calls the "natural intellect or natural life or natural soul or simply 'true nature", being pulled free towards God while the free will repelling it back to its vices and passions. Throughout his writings St.Gregory speaks of the attraction of like to like. The punishments is not of God but derive from our refusal to let go of our passions. The rich young man was saddened when Jesus told him to sell everything and follow him because his heart lay with his riches: We are drawn away from God because we cannot excise the sin that brings us pleasure and satisfaction:
St. Gregory explains:

For He who made man for the participation of His own peculiar good, and incorporated in him the instincts for all that was excellent, in order that his desire might be carried forward by a corresponding movement in each case to its like, would never have deprived him of that most excellent and precious of all goods; I mean the gift implied in being his own master, and having a free will. .... Was it not, then, most right that that which is in every detail made like the Divine should possess in its nature a self-ruling and independent principle, such as to enable the participation of good to be the reward of its virtue? Whence, then, comes it, you will ask, that he who had been distinguished throughout with most excellent endowments exchanged these good things for the worse? The reason of this also is plain. No growth of evil had its beginning in the Divine will. Vice would have been blameless were it inscribed with the name of God as its maker and father. But the evil is, in some way or other, engendered from within, springing up in the will at that moment when there is a retrocession of the soul from the beautiful. ... It is, in fact, not possible to form any other notion of the origin of vice than as the absence of virtue. For as when the light has been removed the darkness supervenes,
.... so, as long as the good is present in the nature, vice is a thing that has no inherent existence; while the departure of the better state becomes the origin of its opposite. Since then, this is the peculiarity of the possession of a free will, that it chooses as it likes the thing that pleases it, you will find that it is not God Who is the author of the present evils, seeing that He has ordered your nature so as to be its own master and free; but rather the recklessness that makes choice of the worse in preference to the better.
(Gregory Nyssa, Great Catechism ch 5)

St. Gregory further goes on to say:

Since, then, there has been inbred in the soul a strong natural tendency to evil, it must suffer, just as the excision of a wart gives a sharp pain to the skin of the body; for whatever contrary to the nature has been inbred in the nature attaches itself to the subject in a certain union of feeling, and hence there is produced an abnormal intermixture of our own with an alien quality, so that the feelings, when the separation from this abnormal growth comes, are hurt and lacerated. Thus when the soul pines and melts away under the correction of its sins, as prophecy somewhere tells us (Psalm 39:11), there necessarily follow, from its deep and intimate connection with evil, certain unspeakable and inexpressible pangs, the description of which is as difficult to render as is that of the nature of those good things which are the subjects of our hope. For neither the one nor the other is capable of being expressed in words, or brought within reach of the understanding. If, then, any one looks to the ultimate aim of the Wisdom of Him Who directs the economy of the universe, he would be very unreasonable and narrow-minded to call the Maker of man the Author of evil;


For St. Gregory its not that eternal torment is evil nor that its inflicted by God, only that he believes God will be successful in eventually purging the soul of what he calls its abnormal alien mixture by extracting its natural life from its sinful attachments.

 

[ClementofA]

Eternity will not involve the passing of time as we currently experience it.

Would that make the torments of those in an endless hell any less? Or worse? And the blessings of heaven?

Does eternity still have time in EO theology? Or does time end when eternity begins? Or some other possibility?

 

[ClementofA]

there's the issue, love is always free, so it is never forced.

If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

love does not annihilate.

It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.

so He is a loving Father. the problem is you are judging God's love by fallen man's standards.

It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen? Lk.12:57:

New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave His Son to win
His erring child He reconciled
And pardoned from his sin

Could we with ink the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!

 

[ArmyMatt]

If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever.



It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.



It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen? Lk.12:57:

New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

yes, God's love does pursue all and He does save all. that is not the issue. the issue is, what happens to those who don't want His salvation? salvation must be freely accepted in addition to freely given, or else it's not love.

and this has also been discussed. why are you here if you keep bringing up points that have already been discussed? and you keep bringing up old talking points that have also been discussed.

and it is only a logical argument in the sense that a 5 year old thinks his dad hates him when he gets grounded is logical. it's still rooted in emotion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My post spoke of him "allowing" her to be tortured, not poking her with a pitchfork:

"If he is all powerful & his child would be tortured forever if he didn't annihilate her, or force her to be saved, if he allows her to be tortured forever then he is not a loving father, but a monster. Would you let her be tortured forever? Do you think Love Crucified is less loving than you?"

Clearly he is not the direct cause of the endless torments. But the fact he can stop them but refuses to do so makes him a monster.

Human logic.

 

[Der Alte]

Where? I've read Justin Martyr was a Conditionalist, e.g.:
Justin Martyr the Conditionalist

Really? Second hand quotes of second hand quotes by some anonymous doods on another forum. Why don't you invest a little time and actually read the ECF for yourself and quote them correctly, title, chapter and paragraph. Not just "This guy said this and that guy say said that."

 

[Toolbelt]

there's the issue, love is always free, so it is never forced. love does not annihilate. so He is a loving Father. the problem is you are judging God's love by fallen man's standards.

This is all true. The problem I see with this type of hell. Is if man still has a free will in the afterlife. His will through torment. Will eventually turn towards god. Eventually he will realize the source of the torment and adjust to it. As we do here on earth.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is all true. The problem I see with this type of hell. Is if man still has a free will in the afterlife. His will through torment. Will eventually turn towards god. Eventually he will realize the source of the torment and adjust to it. As we do here on earth.

I don't think we would say all would turn toward God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Will persons be capable of repentance/change then? Or will they be fixed?

I'm not sure we know ... ?

 

[Lukaris]

There is an ancient account ( 2nd c.) of a deceased daughter named Falconilla appearing to her mother Trifina in a vision asking her mother to seek the intercessionry prayer of St. Thecla for her soul. It is written of in The Acts of Paul & Thecla ( chapter 8). St. Thecla was a disciple of St. Paul and is highly venerated;
Thecla the Protomartyr & Equal to the Apostles - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

This writing was condemned by 5th c. Pope of Rome Gelasius but not so in the Eastern Church.

There does not seem to be a known answer from God of the prayer but it was still done by a saint. See chapter 8 of the Acts:

Acts of Paul and Thecla (Jeremiah Jones translation) - Wikisource, the free online library

 

[ArmyMatt]

Will persons be capable of repentance/change then? Or will they be fixed?

I'm not sure we know ... ?

the only time we can say for sure it's too late is Judgment Day. it's not that free will is lost, only that it is so darkened it won't return, which is not the same as it can't return.

 

[~Anastasia~]

the only time we can say for sure it's too late is Judgment Day. it's not that free will is lost, only that it is so darkened it won't return, which is not the same as it can't return.

Thank you.

 

[Toolbelt]

the only time we can say for sure it's too late is Judgment Day. it's not that free will is lost, only that it is so darkened it won't return, which is not the same as it can't return.

Sorry father, but i can not grasp this concept. if someone is sinning on earth freely and dies. Once he is tormented he will see his errors and conform to change in an environment that is punishing him. He would do the same on earth if he was policed.
I think this concept leads to universalism. Where the torment is so great that all will eventually be lead to god. A forced conversion. A police state. I don't see it as sound theology.
I believe God wants people to choose him in freedom and im definitely not a Universalist.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry father, but i can not grasp this concept. if someone is sinning on earth freely and dies. Once he is tormented he will see his errors and conform to change in an environment that is punishing him. He would do the same on earth if he was policed.
I think this concept leads to universalism. Where the torment is so great that all will eventually be lead to god. A forced conversation. A police state. I dont see it as sound theology.
I believe God wants people to choose him in freedom and im definitely not a Universalist.

he can't conform to the environment which is punishing him, since what is tormenting him is God's love.

 

[Toolbelt]

Can you please give an example of how love can torment. I'm having a hard time seeing it.