Early church opposition to endless hell

Status
Not open for further replies.

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Nyssa also says, and I remember because it was referenced before, that the blessings of heaven are only for those who prepare for it in his writings in the NPNF. so while he is hopeful that all will be saved (as we all should be), he does leave the door open that some can be damned.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"Scholars generally agree on two points regarding Gregory of Nyssa’s eschatology: That he believed in universal reconciliation, and that the salvation of all rational beings eventually will include Satan himself. Such beliefs, far from making Gregory a notorious figure, have largely gone unnoticed outside of academia. Further, even among those for whom Gregory’s universalism is a given, his contention that even Satan will be saved often is treated as an afterthought."

"Yet Gregory seemed to think the salvation of Satan was quite important."

To Heaven with the Devil: The Importance of Satan's Salvation for God's Goodness in the Works of Gregory of Nyssa | Anthony | Conversations: A Graduate Student Journal of the Humanities, Social Sciences, and Theology

"When, over long periods of time, evil has been removed and those now lying in sin have been restored to their original state, all creation will join in united thanksgiving, both those whose purification has involved punishment and those who never needed purification at all" (Catechetical Oration 26)

Eschatology and Final Restoration (Apokatastasis) in Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor | Origen | Hell

"Ludlow examines the eschatological convictions of St Gregory Nyssen in detail. “Whoever considers the divine power,” Gregory writes, “will plainly perceive that it is able at length to restore by means of the aionion purging and atoning sufferings, those who have gone even to this extremity of wickedness.” Hell is purgation that culminates in salvation. Gregory’s views on the apocatastasis were not condemned by the Church at the 5th Ecumenical Council and would later profoundly influence the eschatological reflection of Sergius Bulgakov."

Readings in Universalism


According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls.

"This doctrine was explicitly taught by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and in more than one passage. It first occurs in his "De animâ et resurrectione" (P.G., XLVI, cols. 100, 101) where, in speaking of the punishment by fire assigned to souls after death, he compares it to the process whereby gold is refined in a furnace, through being separated from the dross with which it is alloyed. The punishment by fire is not, therefore, an end in itself, but is ameliorative; the very reason of its infliction is to separate the good from the evil in the soul. The process, moreover, is a painful one; the sharpness and duration of the pain are in proportion to the evil of which each soul is guilty; the flame lasts so long as there is any evil left to destroy. A time, then, will come, when all evil shall cease to be since it has no existence of its own apart from the free will, in which it inheres; when every free will shall be turned to God, shall be in God, and evil shall have no more wherein to exist. Thus, St. Gregory of Nyssa continues, shall the word of St. Paul be fulfilled: Deus erit omnia in omnibus (1 Corinthians 15:28), which means that evil shall, ultimately, have an end, since, if God be all in all, there is no longer any place for evil (cols. 104, 105; cf. col. 152). St. Gregory recurs to the same thought of the final annihilation of evil, in his "Oratio catechetica", ch. xxvi; the same comparison of fire which purges gold of its impurities is to be found there; so also shall the power of God purge nature of that which is preternatural, namely, of evil. Such purification will be painful, as is a surgical operation, but the restoration will ultimately be complete. And, when this restoration shall have been accomplished (he eis to archaion apokatastasis ton nyn en kakia keimenon), all creation shall give thanks to God, both the souls which have had no need of purification, and those that shall have needed it. Not only man, however, shall be set free from evil, but the devil, also, by whom evil entered into the world (ton te anthropon tes kakias eleutheron kai auton ton tes kakias eyreten iomenos). The same teaching is to be found in the "De mortuis" (ibid., col. 536). Bardenhewer justly observes ("Patrologie", Freiburg, 1901, p. 266) that St. Gregory says elsewhere no less concerning the eternity of the fire, and of the punishment of the lost, but that the Saint himself understood this eternity as a period of very long duration, yet one which has a limit. Compare with this "Contra Usurarios" (XLVI, col. 436), where the suffering of the lost is spoken of as eternal, aionia, and "Orat. Catechet.", XXVI (XLV, col. 69), where evil is annihilated after a long period of time, makrais periodois. These verbal contradictions explain why the defenders of orthodoxy should have thought that St. Gregory of Nyssa's writings had been tampered with by heretics. St. Germanus of Constantinople, writing in the eighth century, went so far as to say that those who held that the devils and lost souls would one day be set free had dared "to instill into the pure and most healthful spring of his [Gregory's] writings the black and dangerous poison of the error of Origen, and to cunningly attribute this foolish heresy to a man famous alike for his virtue and his learning" (quoted by Photius, Bibl. Cod., 223; P.G. CIII, col. 1105). Tillemont, "Mémoires pour l'histoire ecclésiastique" (Paris, 1703), IX, p. 602, inclines to the opinion that St. Germanus had good grounds for what he said. We must, however, admit, with Bardenhewer (loc. cit.) that the explanation given by St. Germanus of Constantinople cannot hold. This was, also, the opinion of Petavius, "Theolog. dogmat." (Antwerp, 1700), III, "De Angelis", 109-111."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocatastasis


"Dear me, you really think those are interpolations? That is something of a joke in scholarly circles. Especially since it would basically mean that Gregory’s whole theology, from the ground up, as unfolded in De anima et resurrectione and De hominis opificio and the Great Oration and the Psalms commentary is an interpolation. Maybe Gregory never really wrote anything (rather like the Oxfordian hyposthesis about Shakespeare). Something similar is true in Isaac’s case. And those two are far from being the only patristic universalists; both of the very distinct Alexandrian (including Cappadocian) and Antiochene tradition are full of them, from the days of Pantaenus to the 13th century writings of Solomon of Bostra. Goodness, there are almost overwhelming reasons to believe Gregory Nazianzen, and even Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria, were so disposed (Gregory unquestionably, really).

"And, had our our Lord spoken of everlasting punishment, that would be an interesting argument. But he did not speak English, and in fact did not speak Greek; and the Greek text of Matthew 25:46 (which is the only one you can have in mind) has been read by a great many Greek-speaking and Syriac-speaking fathers, from the earliest days, as saying nothing of the sort.

"As it happens, I number among my friends and acquaintances some of the greatest scholars of Orthodox canons and councils and history in the world; and to a man they would assert that the Orthodox Church–no matter what the inclinations of its catechists and prelates may have been down the ages–has never definitively condemned universalism as such, or even addressed it under any synodical or conciliar conditions of special import. It has condemned some teachings that are also, as it happens, universalist. But the sort of universalism found in Gregory and Isaac, which fully acknowledges the reality of judgment and hell, has never even been addressed.

"But let’s not pursue the issue. Be wrong in good conscience, and by that you shall be saved."

David Bentley Hart

Readings in Universalism
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Clement:
Those that believed in universal restoration such as St Gregory of Nyssa, basically believed it on the same principle as those that did not. The difference is the restorationists believed in the hope that God would eventually be successful in extracting the natural soul from its vices, while the others believed the melding of the soul with its evil passions cannot be seperated in every case, their free will will not allow for it making them always cling to their passions.

buzuxi02,

With all due respect,

The others believed in a God who is a monster for eternity.

As someone once said, there is an infinite difference between a God who will torture someone forever & a God who will not.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
buzuxi02,

With all due respect,

The others believed in a God who is a monster for eternity.

As someone once said, there is an infinite difference between a God who will torture someone forever & a God who will not.

except God doesn't torture anyone forever. I have noticed you have a knack for not reading what we have said on here.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
except God doesn't torture anyone forever. I have noticed you have a knack for not reading what we have said on here.

You misunderstand. My argument is there is no difference between a God who would torture (or torment) anyone forever and a God Who allows it. Both are monstrous.

As i said earlier:

So no matter how you try to flower up the dead corpse of unceasing miseries with roses & petals, a rotting carcass is still a rotting carcass, whether it's the Calvinist brand of an eternity of sufferings, or any other.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You misunderstand. My argument is there is no difference between a God who would torture (or torment) anyone forever and a God Who allows it. Both are monstrous.

As i said earlier:

So no matter how you try to flower up the dead corpse of unceasing miseries with roses & petals, a rotting carcass is still a rotting carcass, whether it's the Calvinist brand of an eternity of sufferings, or any other.

and that's a weak argument. and based solely on emotion and not anything reasonable. your condensing Who God is solely to what makes sense to you. He doesn't answer to you in that way.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,749
12,235
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,194,646.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You misunderstand. My argument is there is no difference between a God who would torture (or torment) anyone forever and a God Who allows it. Both are monstrous.

As i said earlier:

So no matter how you try to flower up the dead corpse of unceasing miseries with roses & petals, a rotting carcass is still a rotting carcass, whether it's the Calvinist brand of an eternity of sufferings, or any other.
So a father who still loves his son or daughter, despite them having turned away from him and hating him, is a monster. Got it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
if you were really rooted in reason, especially when debating us, the 5th Council would end this discussion. plus every council afterwards which affirmed the 5th. there is nothing really reasonable about what you have been posting.

What does the 5th Council have to do with reason? Have any of their reasons been quoted in posts here?

Why should i blindly accept your private interpretation of such a council? Other EO may not agree with your view of what they said, or their importance, e.g. EO scholar David Bentley Hart.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
What does the 5th Council have to do with reason? Have any of their reasons been quoted in posts here?

Why should i blindly accept your private interpretation of such a council? Other EO may not agree with your view of what they said, or their importance, e.g. EO scholar David Bentley Hart.

then you don't really get what an Ecumenical Council is, much like Hart. and yes, the 5th has been referenced since it is the Council that anathematized universalism.

and I never said to blindly accept anything I said. I actually said the opposite.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
then you don't really get what an Ecumenical Council is, much like Hart. and yes, the 5th has been referenced since it is the Council that anathematized universalism.

and I never said to blindly accept anything I said. I actually said the opposite.

What makes you think EO scholar David Bentley Hart doesn't get what an Ecumenical Council is?

I haven't seen any evidence of universalism being anathematized posted here. Just unsupported opinions.

I believe evidence, not opinions. Those who believe opinions on an internet forum without any evidence are operating in blind faith.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So a father who still loves his son or daughter, despite them having turned away from him and hating him, is a monster. Got it.

A human father is not Love Almighty. Neither is he Omniscient, Omnipresent, or Omnipotent.

Neither is the child being tortured forever.

So, sorry, but your analogy is not pertinent to the issue of God being a monster if He allows endless torments.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
What makes you think EO scholar David Bentley Hart doesn't get what an Ecumenical Council is?

I haven't seen any evidence of universalism being anathematized posted here. Just unsupported opinions.

I believe evidence, not opinions. Those who believe opinions on an internet forum without any evidence are operating in blind faith.

Hart says it's there, because it actually is in the extracts, he just doesn't like the Council. and I have told you where to go to read them, as have others. for this specifically NPNF vol 14
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
A human father is not Love Almighty. Neither is he Omniscient, Omnipresent, or Omnipotent.

Neither is the child being tortured forever.

So, sorry, but your analogy is not pertinent to the issue of God being a monster if He allows endless torments.

your concept of love is still too Disney
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
your concept of love is still too Disney

How is that?

The Early Church Father universalists wouldn't have considered their views on universalism & God's love to have been properly characterized as "too Disney".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,140
17,456
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You misunderstand. My argument is there is no difference between a God who would torture (or torment) anyone forever and a God Who allows it. Both are monstrous.


So how is this different from all the atheists who refuse to believe in God because He is a monster for allowing millennia of untold human suffering up till now?
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So how is this different from all the atheists who refuse to believe in God because He is a monster for allowing millennia of untold human suffering up till now?

Anastasia,

Thank you for your question.

As i see it, all those sufferings combined are as a single drop of water in a universe full of nothing but water compared to the endless ages of eternity. The torments of a never ending hell are like the universe full of water. There's really no comparison between the two. They are like day and night, good & evil, kind & monster.

All of those relatively momentary light sufferings God is able to (and will) work together for good. Nothing good comes of beings who are tormented for trillions X trillions X trillions of millenniums, when in light of eternity their sufferings will have only just begun.

Does that make any sense to you?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,618
20,199
41
Earth
✟1,479,514.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How is that?

The Early Church Father universalists wouldn't have considered their views on universalism & God's love to have been properly characterized as "too Disney".

the early Church Fathers were not as universalist as your blog entries make them sound. you seem to keep opposing love with torment and it's not. love can cause torment if the beloved refuses the lover's love.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,140
17,456
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Anastasia,

Thank you for your question.

As i see it, all those sufferings combined are as a single drop of water in a universe full of nothing but water compared to the endless ages of eternity. The torments of a never ending hell are like the universe full of water. There's really no comparison between the two. They are like day and night, good & evil, kind & monster.

All of those relatively momentary light sufferings God is able to (and will) work together for good. Nothing good comes of beings who are tormented for trillions X trillions X trillions of millenniums, when in light of eternity their sufferings will have only just begun.

Does that make any sense to you?

So it's the sheer "volume" of how much suffering is experienced that matters to you?

That's one way of looking at it.

Some others may consider that the ones who committed evil perhaps deserve a degree of suffering, but get upset with God because of the intense degrees of suffering sometimes inflicted on those who are relatively innocent, or sometimes as a result of some sacrificial good act.

At any rate, I was curious about your thinking. This is still a rather emotionally-driven point and no more. I'm afraid it cannot in itself form the basis of doctrine for either of us.

But I was curious about one kind of suffering mattering differently to you than another.



(I do not believe that God relishes any sort of suffering, nor does He inflict it on anyone, ever. But it does happen as the result of sin, our own or that of others, and the events that result or the condition of soul that results.)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So a father who still loves his son or daughter, despite them having turned away from him and hating him, is a monster. Got it.

If he is all powerful & his child would be tortured forever if he didn't annihilate her, or force her to be saved, if he allows her to be tortured forever then he is not a loving father, but a monster. Would you let her be tortured forever? Do you think Love Crucified is less loving than you?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.