Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But ye are made clean by the WORD, ........

 

[Arsenios]

Good,
and Jesus said explaining to His Apostles and disciples; These Words Are Spirit, and they ARE LIFE.

Mystery, no question...

Arsenios

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Well, so much for believing the Bible...

"Take... Eat... This IS My Body..."

Arsenios

Well if it is meant to be literal as you say. Then surely the wine should taste like blood does and the wafer as flesh does. Or else it cannot be literal! You can't have it both ways

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Mystery, no question...

Arsenios

Yes, and NO TORAH violation drinking blood or other violation.

IF Jesus sinned, could He Be our Savior ?!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

literal! You can't have it both ways

What is eternal/ lasting? "SPIRIT" (the unseen), which Jesus said of His Words "flesh and blood".

So the eternal, unchanging , Word of YHWH , being unseen, Spirit,
is literal , unless you mean by literal something physical and/or corruptible ?

Or better- SPIRIT is REAL, REALITY. Flesh and blood is temporary, passing away.

 

[Arsenios]

But ye are made clean by the WORD, ........

Only through your prayers for me...
The Body of Christ is interconnected by intercessory prayer...

Arsenios

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

What is eternal/ lasting? "SPIRIT" (the unseen), which Jesus said of His Words "flesh and blood".

So the eternal, unchanging , Word of YHWH , being unseen, Spirit,
is literal , unless you mean by literal something physical and/or corruptible ?

Or better- SPIRIT is REAL, REALITY. Flesh and blood is temporary, passing away.

That is exactly what I am saying literal=physical here

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only through your prayers for me...
The Body of Christ is interconnected by intercessory prayer...

Arsenios

Prayer is most needed, and maybe most neglected, yes.

But I think the cleansing by the WORD is not by men, but by YHWH as Jesus says.

(speaking the truth of His Word to each other, may indeed cleanse one another (just a thought) , also)
(as YHWH accomplishes this)

I know experientially that speaking the truth does promote healing and life in others (those who are destined for resurrection in Jesus).
The same message is an aroma of death , a stench, to those destined for resurrection to judgment because of their unbelief.
(as written in YHWH'S WORD).

 

[Arsenios]

Well if it is meant to be literal as you say. Then surely the wine should taste like blood does and the wafer as flesh does. Or else it cannot be literal! You can't have it both ways

You are right, I cannot have it both ways...
But by the Bible, Christ most assurredly DID have it both ways...
When the Bread and the Wine are blessed and the bread is broken in the manner by Christ that Christ prescribed, then these Holy Gifts ARE the Body and the Blood of Christ, and they are no longer simply bread and wine, but their perception is no longer physical, as you insist, but they can only be perceived through the Holy Spirit... They are not to be carnalized as you are insisting they be... For those not perceiving them through the Holy Spirit, (like me) they are only perceived as bread and wine... Yet their import is visible in its fruit...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Prayer is most needed, and maybe most neglected, yes.

But I think the cleansing by the WORD is not by men, but by YHWH as Jesus says.

(speaking the truth of His Word to each other, may indeed cleanse one another (just a thought) , also)
(as YHWH accomplishes this)

I know experientially that speaking the truth does promote healing and life in others (those who are destined for resurrection in Jesus).
The same message is an aroma of death , a stench, to those destined for resurrection to judgment because of their unbelief.
(as written in YHWH'S WORD).

Not by, but through...

A.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

You are right, I cannot have it both ways...
But by the Bible, Christ most assurredly DID have it both ways...
When the Bread and the Wine are blessed and the bread is broken in the manner that Christ prescribed, then these Holy Gifts ARE the Body and the Blood of Christ, and they are no longer simply bread and wine, but their perception is no longer physical, as you insist, but they can only be perceived through the Holy Spirit... They are not to be carnalized as you are insisting they be... For those not perceiving them through the Holy Spirit, (like me) they are only perceived as bread and wine... Yet their import is visible in its fruit...

Arsen

But that is your understanding the majority of Christians disagree with you. The RC Church wants to take the words literally and not symbolically which would require the wafer and wine change into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ! This does not happen but they remain as they are. If you were to look inside the person who takes these emblems they will not have changed

 

[concretecamper]

I must confess that I normally accuse others of what it is that I am myself actually doing...

From which I infer: "DO NOT ACCUSE!"

But only, I should add, with mixed results...

I mean, it is a lot of fun to accuse!

And the dirty dogs ALL richly deserve it!

Ignoring that I am the dirty dog who richly deserves condemnation!

Sigh...

Arsenios

I didn't accuse anyone of anything. All I said was the statement he made was a lie. The fact that he reacted the way he did speaks volumes. The fact he still has yet to back up his statement speaks greater volumes.

 

[Arsenios]

That is exactly what I am saying literal=physical here

Literal CAN be carnal-physical - eg a bloody mess...
Yet Christ, BEFORE He ascended the Cross, gave thanks and broke the Bread and said:
"Take... Eat... This IS My Body..."

Are you REALLY insisting that Christ fed the Apostles His bloody meat???

Arsenios

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Literal CAN be carnal-physical - eg a bloody mess...
Yet Christ, BEFORE He ascended the Cross, gave thanks and broke the Bread and said:
"Take... Eat... This IS My Body..."

Are you REALLY insisting that Christ fed the Apostles His bloody meat???

Arsenios

The Bible does use symbolic language as well as literal. As in the Book of Revelation where we read of the four horses. Do you think they are literal horses?

 

[Arsenios]

I didn't accuse anyone of anything. All I said was the statement he made was a lie. The fact that he reacted the way he did speaks volumes. The fact he still has yet to back up his statement speaks greater volumes.

The Angel confronting Satan himself said: "The Lord rebuke thee!"

I will settle for simply witnessing the truth, avoiding calling untruth a lie...

It may or may not be a lie, which ascribes motive...

Are you praying for him?

Arsenios

 

[concretecamper]

, which ascribes motive...

Exactly

Are you praying for him?

Currently no. In the past, yes. Gotta get back on that

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Literal CAN be carnal-physical - eg a bloody mess...
Yet Christ, BEFORE He ascended the Cross, gave thanks and broke the Bread and said:
"Take... Eat... This IS My Body..."

Are you REALLY insisting that Christ fed the Apostles His bloody meat???

Arsenios

So it was symbolic which is what it is meant to be. The wafer and wine as representing the body and blood of Jesus.

 

[Arsenios]

The Bible does use symbolic language as well as literal. As in the Book of Revelation where we read of the four horses. Do you think they are literal horses?

You went to the right Book!
Orthodox Theology is not literal but is descriptive and pragmatic... It is empirical... Something is perceived in Spirit, as did John on Patmos, and is then translated into his understanding, then into words, then written down... So we read it as an empirical description... The empirical meanings at that point need to be discerned Spiritually... Hence the great FAIL of carnal interpretation...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So it was symbolic which is what it is meant to be. The wafer and wine as representing the body and blood of Jesus.

Christ did not say it was symbolic...
The blessed and broken Bread IS His Body...

The Greek normally does not use the IS word in normal discourse, so that when it IS used (no pun intended), it places great emphasis on the IS, which is why I darkened and underlined what was already bolded... There is a perfectly good Greek word for "SYMBOLIZES"... Christ did not use such an Aramaic term... Had the ESTIN word NOT been there, then PERHAPS we might interpret differently... But it IS there, that the fact that it IS the very Body and Blood of our Lord is consistently attested by ALL the Churches founded by the Apostles for 2000 years now and counting, including the (Apostatic) Latin Church...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But that is your understanding the majority of Christians disagree with you.

That is the historic understanding of the Church from the beginnings...

The RC Church wants to take the words literally and not symbolically which would require the wafer and wine change into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ!

This simply means that it is time to pray for your Latin Brothers...

This does not happen but they remain as they are. If you were to look inside the person who takes these emblems they will not have changed

Hang out with the Orthodox faithful - They DO change!

I saw RC priests carrying a plastic baby doll in the Mass of Christmas this year...

Lord have Mercy on them!

Arsenios