Is there salvation after death?

[iwbswiaihl2]

We know that until Jesus came on earth and was crucified the saints of the OT did not go to heaven until afterwards, when He died they went to be with Him. And we also see in v26 that there was a great gulf fixed so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. So that nullifies an exchange from one place to the other for the OT people. Now the saved, their spirits go to be in heaven and the others to death and hades is all the scriptures tell us. Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Luke 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 

[BobRyan]

One doesn't have to be a universalist to believe babies get born again after being killed by abortion. Or that there is a purgatory (or the like) where the unsaved may have a first or second chance for salvation.

The living have to be born again - when they choose to accept the Gospel .. they believe and they are born again.

The dead don't have crusades and when the dead are raised they are raised incorruptible (the dead in Christ that is - 1 Thess 4) so they too do not need to be born-again.

One is either saved or lost when they die and being resurrected does not change it. When the saints are raised they are raised incorruptible. The baby that is raised is raised incorruptible.

"to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 babies are not in that group.

Nothing in this opinion provides Scripture denying after death salvation by the Saviour of the lost to the same.

Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment" -

As opposed to "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then more chances to accept the gospel"

Jesus said, ye must be born again to enter His kingdom (Jn.3).

True of the living.

Jesus did not say that the dead must become born again.

For them "the story is over" -- they are either in or out.

 

[BobRyan]

We know that until Jesus came on earth and was crucified the saints of the OT did not go to heaven until afterwards, when He died they went to be with Him.

true and false.

In Matthew 17 we see both Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glory... before the cross. But of course they along with Enoch (mentioned in Hebrews 11) are all exceptions to the rule that no one went to heaven.

And of course Peter says that all the saints alive after the cross 'fix their hope completely' on the event of the 2nd coming. They do not fix their hope on their death.

1 Peter 1
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 4
. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Phil 3
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


John 14:1-3
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Seems like you're saying to be absent from the body is not to be with the Lord which would contradict what Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Just because Elijah and Enoch were taken does not say that they went somewhere other than Abraham's bosom like the beggar did in Luke 16, although we are not told that specifically. I see this text in Hebrews 9 shows us that Jesus redeemed those under the first covenant in this text; 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. There is not any direct teaching as I know other than this, I could be persuaded differently if I saw some scripture. But the ones you post I assume to show that the spirit does not go to be with the Lord I do not see that is what they are saying. A couple of them are talking about the resurrection of the dead and I see that as the redemption of their dead bodies, being transformed as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15. Remember Jesus never spoke of the saints as being dead, but asleep. In Revelation when speaking of the judgments, death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. Peters quote could easily be that they were looking for Jesus to come at any time like what 1 Cor 15 would be talking about. The other in Matt I believe is just after the 7 years of tribulation when Christ will come and put an end to the beast and place the devil in chains for a 1000 years as Jesus will live in His kingdom on earth with the saints who will come with Him and the Jews who came through the tribulation that were saved during the tribulation times. Rev 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. Read all of chapters 20-21 for text on these events.

I more than I should often show to many text in one post, if you question any of these, I would prefer just 1 or 2 at a time if you agree to that. Otherwise, I may not answer all in one post, when they get too long, I have to go back and forth too much and confuse the issues. Thanks

 

[BobRyan]

Your response to the texts I posted included this -

Seems like you're saying to be absent from the body is not to be with the Lord which would contradict what Paul wrote

Paul never wrote "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" --

Many people have highly recommended that Paul should write such a thing - but he did not do it and it is too late to have him do it now - as I am sure we both agree.

under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul wrote this in 2Cor 5 "instead" -- he said that when we are resurrected and taken to heaven (at the second coming event he already described in 1 Cor 15) we will have an eternal body ... and while alive in this decaying body we long for the one that comes to us the future. He also says that once this body is destroyed and before we receive the 1Cor 15 body at the resurrection ... we are in the unclothed state having no body at all.


TWO Bodies. An earthly one... and a heavenly one
2 Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Instead of saying "IS to be" as if by definition absent from the body is present with the LORD - Paul says "AND to BE" speaking of TWO events.

1. dying ... absent from the body
2. resurrected - new eternal body - present with the Lord



TWO Bodies. An earthly one... and a heavenly one
1 Cor 15
12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The Order of Resurrection
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,


35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Mystery of Resurrection
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


It is "in the context" of that TWO BODY discussion in 1Cor 15 - that Paul then writes his TWO Body discussion in 2Cor 5.

 

[BobRyan]

Just because Elijah and Enoch were taken does not say that they went somewhere other than Abraham's bosom like the beggar did in Luke 16, although we are not told that specifically.

1. Luke 16 is a parable -- which means Abraham is not the sovereign of all saints in heaven.
2. Abraham's bosom is symbolic -- not real at all. It was just to illustrate the point that if people refuse to "listen to Moses and the prophets they will not listen though one rises from the dead".
3. Elijah and Enoch did not die - and it is Elijah and Moses in Matt 17 that appear with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - very much alive - very much on earth - not at all deceased.

 

[ClementofA]

We know that until Jesus came on earth and was crucified the saints of the OT did not go to heaven until afterwards, when He died they went to be with Him. And we also see in v26 that there was a great gulf fixed so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. So that nullifies an exchange from one place to the other for the OT people. Now the saved, their spirits go to be in heaven and the others to death and hades is all the scriptures tell us. Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Luke 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Nothing there denies the possibility of repentance & salvation to any who might end up in the lake of fire. In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments.

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

Luke 16:19-31 rich man in "hell"

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

1. Luke 16 is a parable -- which means Abraham is not the sovereign of all saints in heaven.
2. Abraham's bosom is symbolic -- not real at all. It was just to illustrate the point that if people refuse to "listen to Moses and the prophets they will not listen though one rises from the dead".
3. Elijah and Enoch did not die - and it is Elijah and Moses in Matt 17 that appear with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - very much alive - very much on earth - not at all deceased.

I will respond to both from this post; Your quote: 2 Cor 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Mine NKJ 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Looks the same to me, tomato, tomoto, they taste the same. When the thief on the cross said, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom, Jesus said to him, Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” So then to be present with the Lord is different from to be at home with the Lord? If you were at home with the Lord would you not be present with Him? If we were just inside the pearly gate, and the Lord ask me are you here, and I said, I am present, and you said, I am at home with you, would we not both be in the same place?

So you must think that Elijah and Enoch are still alive on earth today? Of course, you read it one way, I read it another. You take it as symbolic, but the symbol has to stand for something, where they were Abraham told him, the rich man, that he could not leave from where he was at and the beggar man could not leave where he was at, but the beggar man was where ever Abraham was and he was with the rest of the saint of the OT.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Nothing there denies the possibility of repentance & salvation to any who might end up in the lake of fire. In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments.

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

Luke 16:19-31 rich man in "hell"

Those in Hades did not stay in hades forever, they and death went to the lake of fire forever.

 

[ClementofA]

Those in Hades did not stay in hades forever, they and death went to the lake of fire forever.

The Scriptures do not support that POV.

I don't believe in the "good news" of endless tortures.

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

 

[ClementofA]

Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment" -

That verse does not deny either:

1] the lost being saved after death & before judgement, or

2] the lost becoming saved after death & judgement

True of the living.

Jesus did not say that the dead must become born again.

For them "the story is over" -- they are either in or out.

If that were true, then babies would go to hell, since they were not "born again" (Jn.3:3-8). Fortunately it's false.

Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh (e.g. new born babies) & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And He said one MUST be "born again" to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-8). No exceptions are given. Nowhere does He say His words apply only to the living & after death there is another way, a different principle. He doesn't say babies who died as such will be allowed into the Kingdom without being born of the Spirit. And since babies will be allowed to enter, once they receive the new birth of the Spirit, there is after life salvation.


Matthew 12:32

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

This addresses one sin, but how does it address every other sin or what happens to all who die in sin in the afterlife?

The previous verse says:

So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt.12:31

IOW all those who die in sin (blasphemy of the HS excepted) shall be forgiven. So there is afterlife salvation.

For more comments on this passage, see the thread topic:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

 

[Lawrence Ozeh]

Salvation is for the living only. The dead are dead forever and as such has no hope. Why they are described as having no hope is because they can't amend their life again.
They just have to wait till the end of days when they will be judged.
This question (Life after death) as well as <a href"Did God Create Himself?">did God create himself </a>are some of the hottest debates in christian communities right now.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 14:6-8,15-16,18,21,27

 

[Lawrence Ozeh]

Please what does it mean to be a universalist?
My Google is broken!

The living have to be born again - when they choose to accept the Gospel .. they believe and they are born again.

The dead don't have crusades and when the dead are raised they are raised incorruptible (the dead in Christ that is - 1 Thess 4) so they too do not need to be born-again.

One is either saved or lost when they die and being resurrected does not change it. When the saints are raised they are raised incorruptible. The baby that is raised is raised incorruptible.

"to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 babies are not in that group.



Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment" -

As opposed to "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then more chances to accept the gospel"




True of the living.

Jesus did not say that the dead must become born again.

For them "the story is over" -- they are either in or out.

 

[ClementofA]

Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment" -

That verse does not deny either:

1] the lost being saved after death & before judgement, or

2] the lost becoming saved after death & judgement

True of the living.

Jesus did not say that the dead must become born again.

For them "the story is over" -- they are either in or out.

If that were true, then babies would go to hell, since they were not "born again" (Jn.3:3-8). Fortunately it's false.

Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh (e.g. new born babies) & that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. And He said one MUST be "born again" of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-8). No exceptions are given. Nowhere does He say His words apply only to the living & after death there is another way, a different principle. He doesn't say babies who died as such will be allowed into the Kingdom without being born of the Spirit. And since babies will be allowed to enter, once they receive the new birth of the Spirit, there is after life salvation.

Do you suppose babies who died will be forced into heaven without their consent of free will & remain in those little bodies (about 3 inches high & up) & minds on the level of an animal (or less) for all eternity? And be forced to confess Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:9-11) and worship God (Rev.5:13) without even knowing what they are talking about? And this will glorify God?

[BTW, Scripture says the saved will confess Jesus is Lord (Phil.2:9-11) to the glory of God the Father. And that no one can do this except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:3).]

Or do you think it more reasonable & likely that Love Omnipotent will after their death bring these babies bodies & minds to a level of maturity so they can understand the gospel and make a free will choice between Jesus or Satan? And like in this life many will choose Jesus and many will reject Him. In which case there is after death salvation for the unsaved.


Matthew 12:32

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

This addresses one sin, but how does it address every other sin or what happens to all who die in sin in the afterlife?

The previous verse says:

So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt.12:31

IOW all those who die in sin (blasphemy of the HS excepted) shall be forgiven. So there is afterlife salvation.

For more comments on this passage, see the thread topic:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

 

[BobRyan]

One doesn't have to be a universalist to believe babies get born again after being killed by abortion. Or that there is a purgatory (or the like) where the unsaved may have a first or second chance for salvation.

The living have to be born again - when they choose to accept the Gospel .. they believe and they are born again.

The dead don't have crusades and when the dead are raised they are raised incorruptible (the dead in Christ that is - 1 Thess 4) so they too do not need to be born-again.

One is either saved or lost when they die and being resurrected does not change it. When the saints are raised they are raised incorruptible. The baby that is raised is raised incorruptible.

"to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 babies are not in that group.

Nothing in this opinion provides Scripture denying after death salvation by the Saviour of the lost to the same.

Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment" -

As opposed to "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then more chances to accept the gospel"

That verse does not deny either:

1] the lost being saved after death & before judgement, or

2] the lost becoming saved after death & judgement

I admire your optimism in the face of that disconfirming text.

Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes the judgment" -

As opposed to "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then more chances to accept the gospel"

not "it is appointed unto man once to die then comes evangelism then comes judgment". INSERTING your beliefs into the text is called eisegesis. There is not limit to the false doctrine that can be had via the floodgates of eisesgesis. Anyone can "just insert whatever they wish" and it becomes "their Bible".

Also Note -- you don't get evangelized while you sleep.


1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Matt 22 "God is not the God of the dead - but of the living" - such that bodily resurrection is the only solution Christ allows.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said, ye must be born again to enter His kingdom (Jn.3).

True of the living.

Jesus did not say that the dead must become born again.

For them "the story is over" -- they are either in or out.

If that were true, then babies would go to hell, since they were not "born again" (Jn.3:3-8).

Only the living need to be born again. Babies die and have forgiveness of sins - when they are raised they have sinless bodies and already had no ability to 'sin' (to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin - James 4:17) even while living.

the point remains.

Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh but he is talking to an adult.

His conversation is in the context of an adult - and one who knows to do right ... and at times.. does it not.

This is irrefutable.

Do you suppose babies who died will be forced into heaven without their consent of free will & remain in those little bodies (about 3 inches high & up) & minds on the level of an animal (or less) for all eternity?

1. Babies make no choices... they have no concept of abstract ideas such as obedience, sin, salvation, the gospel etc.

This is irrefutable.

2. Babies grow up over time.

This is irrefutable.

3. A sinless being (which is what that baby is in the resurrection) would not choose death, sin and misery without a lot of deception to coax them into it. Adam and Eve were sinless adults and needed a devil to tempt them to do evil. They would not do it of their own accord.

4. A sinless baby would have no sins to confess, no repentance, no "turning from sin" -- fully sinless from the very start.

This is irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 12:32

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

This addresses one sin, but how does it address every other sin or what happens to all who die in sin in the afterlife?

The previous verse says:

So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt.12:31

IOW all those who die in sin (blasphemy of the HS excepted) shall be forgiven. So there is afterlife salvation.

For more comments on this passage, see the thread topic:

the text says "will not be forgiven" you turn it into "see there is forgiveness in the next life".

We have many texts saying that in this life a person can be forgiven... and NONE saying that in the next life you are forgiven of sins. The only statement made at all about the next life is... no forgiveness.

Thus Matt 12 is not helping the point you seek to make.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm