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medical students boycotting lectures on evolution

Subduction Zone

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Actually, I think he's arguing the opposite of McCarthy's view. He's saying that it's harmful to not get the shot, etc.

I could see that . I was agreeing with him and was obviously being a bit facetious. I would have used a <rolleyes> smiley if they had one here.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I could see that . I was agreeing with him and was obviously being a bit facetious.
I'll take your word for it, of course, but from my point of view it seemed very much like you were being sarcastic, not facetious; that you were sarcastically calling him Jenny McCarthy because his views were similar to hers (when they weren't). If someone espoused the view that, "The Earth is only 6000 years old!", I might sarcastically say "Yes, thank you Mr. Hovind...".

I honestly can't see how your post agrees with him; maybe I'm having a bad day ^_^.

Poe's law states that, in the absence of a smiley, a parody of fundamentalism will be mistaken for fundamentalism itself. Maybe this situation should be encompassed by a corollary?

I would have used a <rolleyes> smiley if they had one here.
Hmm, that would only exacerbate the (my) impression of sarcasm.

"The Earth is only 6000 years old!"
"Thank you Kent Hovind :doh:"

"Vaccines cause autism!"
"Thank you Andrew Wakefield :doh:"

I'm not having a go, I just can't see it. Is it just me? :scratch:
 
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Subduction Zone

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Perhaps we have a different approach to humor.

Trust me, I was agreeing with him and point out how "experts" like Jenny McCarthy helped spread the word. Now Jenny's son is "cured" of autism and it is said that he may have never have been autistic at all.

Jenny McCarthy, keeping the myth of the dumb blonde alive and well!
 
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Jamin4422

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taking antibiotics for the flu would be about as useful as running an antivirus scan on your computer to fix a broken car.
Depends on what you mean by useful. There are people that have the flu that do not even know they have the flu. They do not feel sick. If you take a placebo, your still have the flu. But you may no longer feel sick because of the placebo effect. They say it is not good to use antibiotics in this way because of antibiotic resistant bacteria.
 
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Jamin4422

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Again, please cite your evidence for this. What peer-reviewed research corroborates your claim that flu shots harm the individual more than it helps them?


How about if you read the article and then you tell me what it says:

"Like the engineers who warned for years about the levees of New Orleans, these experts caution that our defenses may be flawed, and quite possibly useless against a truly lethal flu. And that unless we are willing to ask fundamental questions about the science behind flu vaccines and antiviral drugs, we could find ourselves, in a bad epidemic, as helpless as the citizens of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina."

Does the Vaccine Matter? - Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer - The Atlantic

And, what do these 3%/97% figures mean?
This was a conversation I use to have with my dad about anesthesia. Or just having an operation in general. That was the figure he use to tell people that 3% died but at least 50 or 60% were helped and the rest it did no harm. Or even 97% were better because of the operation. So he felt it was ok to kill 3% of the people to help the people you are able to help with an operation. In the end he died from an operation. Live by the sword, then you die by the sword. There were things they could have done to reduce the risk. IT was all rather a botched job from someone that did not have a lot of experience. Something I had warned him about many times. Just like I am here warning people.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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How about if you read the article and then you tell me what it says:

"Like the engineers who warned for years about the levees of New Orleans, these experts caution that our defenses may be flawed, and quite possibly useless against a truly lethal flu. And that unless we are willing to ask fundamental questions about the science behind flu vaccines and antiviral drugs, we could find ourselves, in a bad epidemic, as helpless as the citizens of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina."

Does the Vaccine Matter? - Shannon Brownlee and Jeanne Lenzer - The Atlantic
I asked for peer-reviewed research, not a news article. It would be trivial to find a news article that supports mass vaccination, and then where would we be?

But, of course, news articles are irrelevant. Where's the peer-reviewed research? The article you cited cites none, instead making unsubstantiated claims like:
"As with vaccines, the scientific evidence for Tamiflu and Relenza is thin at best. In its general-information section, the CDC&#8217;s Web site tells readers that antiviral drugs can &#8220;make you feel better faster.&#8221; True, but not by much. On average, Tamiflu (which accounts for 85 to 90 percent of the flu antiviral-drug market) cuts the duration of flu symptoms by 24hours in otherwise healthy people. In exchange for a slightly shorter bout of illness, as many as one in five people taking Tamiflu will experience nausea and vomiting. About one in five children will have neuropsychiatric side effects, possibly including anxiety and suicidal behavior. In Japan, where Tamiflu is liberally prescribed, the drug may have been responsible for 50 deaths from cardiopulmonary arrest, from 2001 to 2007, according to Rokuro Hama, the chair of the Japan Institute of Pharmacovigilance."
Now, maybe that's true. But because there is no source for these data, because there's no way for you or I to track down what Rokuro Hama actually said (and yes, journalistic misreporting can easily turn someone's words on their head) or where this 1 in 5 statistics actually came from... it's untrustworthy.

So, again, I ask for the peer-reviewed research that corroborates your views - not, I'm sorry to say, an article in a newspaper.

This was a conversation I use to have with my dad about anesthesia. Or just having an operation in general. That was the figure he use to tell people that 3% died but at least 50 or 60% were helped and the rest it did no harm. Or even 97% were better because of the operation. So he felt it was ok to kill 3% of the people to help the people you are able to help with an operation. In the end he died from an operation. Live by the sword, then you die by the sword. There were things they could have done to reduce the risk. IT was all rather a botched job from someone that did not have a lot of experience. Something I had warned him about many times. Just like I am here warning people.
Err... which is it? The botched job, or the inherent 3% risk? I strongly doubt that 3% figure, seeing as the actual risk of death from anaesthesia is entirely dependant on what anaesthetic you take and under what conditions (LA/GA, duration you're 'under', where and how the drug is administered (gas, IV...), etc). And, even if there were a flat mortality risk across the whole width and breadth of anaesthesia, 3% is gargantuanly high.

Ah, but I just lambasted you for not citing your sources, so I better pony up and deliver my own. This paper found 2,211 deaths related to anaesthesia in the US between 1999 and 2005 - in six full years, 2,211 people died from anaesthesia, and only about 4% of those were from inherent problems (and no overdosing, etc). If your 3% figure is correct, then in those six years, a mere 73,700 Americans had anaesthesia. That's suspiciously low, don't you think?
 
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sfs

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How about if you read the article and then you tell me what it says:

"Like the engineers who warned for years about the levees of New Orleans, these experts caution that our defenses may be flawed, and quite possibly useless against a truly lethal flu. And that unless we are willing to ask fundamental questions about the science behind flu vaccines and antiviral drugs, we could find ourselves, in a bad epidemic, as helpless as the citizens of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina."
It says pretty much exactly what I said above: "With influenza vaccines, there is a real issue about who to vaccinate and who benefits. For a long time, the focus was on vaccinating the elderly, since they're the ones who are likely to die of flu, even though flu vaccines are quite ineffective in that population. From a public health perspective, the right population to vaccinate is small children, since they're the ones who spread the virus the most."

That's not the same thing as saying that the vaccine actually does more harm than good to individuals. I don't know of any evidence for that, and you haven't presented any.
 
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Tiberius

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Depends on what you mean by useful. There are people that have the flu that do not even know they have the flu. They do not feel sick. If you take a placebo, your still have the flu. But you may no longer feel sick because of the placebo effect. They say it is not good to use antibiotics in this way because of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

And now, here's the question...

How did the bacteria get to be resistant to the antibiotics?
 
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Jamin4422

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The botched job, or the inherent 3% risk?
In his case it was just a botched job. The guy was young and inexperienced. That is why a little bit could have gone a long way. I do not know why they did not wait for my brother to get there before they did anything. Because he would have straightened it all out.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Don't you think that a better option than boycotting evolution would be learning and subsequently refuting it?
If someone came up with a T - H - E - O - R - Y
that
10% of the humans around us are actually wrinkkled greeen skkin aliens
would you even bother to consider it,
let alone have any reason to refute it or waste time on it ?
 
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Speedwell

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If someone came up with a T - H - E - O - R - Y
that
10% of the humans around us are actually wrinkkled greeen skkin aliens
would you even bother to consider it,
let alone have any reason to refute it or waste time on it ?
No, the reasons are usually politcal. For instance, nobody really cares what creationists believe, any more than we care that Seventh Day Adventists don't eat meat or that Mormons wear special underclothing. But creationists want their doctrine taught in public schools, along with their sectarian form of prayer and Bible study. So, they get some pushback.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, the reasons are usually politcal. For instance, nobody really cares what creationists believe, any more than we care that Seventh Day Adventists don't eat meat or that Mormons wear special underclothing. But creationists want their doctrine taught in public schools, along with their sectarian form of prayer and Bible study. So, they get some pushback.
We keep that in mind when it's time to vote.
 
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46AND2

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If someone came up with a T - H - E - O - R - Y
that
10% of the humans around us are actually wrinkkled greeen skkin aliens
would you even bother to consider it,
let alone have any reason to refute it or waste time on it ?

Cop out. If it was taught in schools, and I absolutely disagreed with it, then yes, it can be as silly as that, and the better option would be learn what their theory entails, and then rip it apart from the inside. "Nuh-uh, I don't want to hear it," will never get anything done.

I know I would do this, because I HAVE DONE IT, already.
 
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TLK Valentine

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We keep that in mind when it's time to vote.

Indeed -- any opportunity to attempt to assert dominance over a world you occasionally claim to be in, but not of.
 
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trunks2k

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179809d1373210666t-apple-going-down-billions-tax-fraud-thread-necromancy.png
 
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AV1611VET

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