Millennial Considerations

[DavidPT]

Jesus Christ Taught in Matthew 25:31-46 That At His Second Coming, The Final Judgment, Eternal Life, Eternal Kingdom Takes Place.

"No Earthly Millennial Kingdom Of 1000 Years To Follow".

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns wth the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 the righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

Eternity Has Started, For Ever And Ever

If the goats in Matthew 25 represented all of the unsaved, including atheists, witches, satan worshipers, so on and so on, you would have verses that can't be trumped nor disputed. But the goats don't represent all of the unsaved. Context matters. It determines meaning.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but this is too simple. The first resurrection is for the righteous only. The second resurrection is for both the righteous and the wicked.

In other words, the righteous get two resurrections. A spiritual, and a physical. Those who take part in the spiritual resurrection (accepting Jesus) don't have to fear the lake of fire.

Please provide scripture to support this Bible interpertation.

 

[seventysevens]

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

There's your first resurrection and reign with Christ, right there. It doesn't get much clearer than this.

Do you not see how far you have stretched the meaning , this is not a bodily resurrection- if it is then we are resurrected every day of our lives if we follow

1 Cor 15 (KJV)
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

When speaking of Revelation 20 it is speaking of a literal body resurrection that was dead and now risen bodily to reign with Christ for 1000 years

When Jesus spoke of being "born-again" in spirit one might call it a resurrection but it is not as it pertains to a person dying to self and being made new in Christ

it is not correct to say that we have two resurrections as that will confuse people who are not studied on the subject and cause them to think righteous rise from the grave twice

 

[BABerean2]

If the goats in Matthew 25 represented all of the unsaved, including atheists, witches, satan worshipers, so on and so on, you would have verses that can't be trumped nor disputed. But the goats don't represent all of the unsaved. Context matters. It determines meaning.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


Do the unsaved, atheists, witches, satan worshippers, etc. live in "nations"?

If they do live in nations then we appreciate you saying that we "have verses that cannot be trumped or disputed".

.

 

[seventysevens]

John 5:28 refers to the second resurrection. The first resurrection is spiritual. That explains it.

Wrong . Where you are creating confusion is calling it a resurrection to compare with scriptural resurrection , that is why the scripture makes it clear to avoid this confusion , we understand the point but you are creating unnecessary confusion by categorizing as a resurrection as a spirit does not die so it cannot be resurrected

Rev20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[BABerean2]

I cannot agree that the new heavens and the new earth starts on the day of Jesus' return.

The terms "day of the Lord" when He returns "as a thief", connect the following passages and reveals the timing of the event.

In the first passage below the words "But" and "we" and "sleep" show that chapter 4 is connected to chapter 5. The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is revealed at the beginning of chapter 5.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief (red). Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

 

[seventysevens]

Here's how I see Scripture teaching the events; where I don't agree is with treating the "dead" of Rev.20:5 meaning they aren't raised until the end of the thousand years. NO idea of flesh death can be applied after Christ's coming; only the "second death" is in effect for that time.

1. Christ's return: both just and the unjust resurrected to a spiritual body on that day. Everyone on earth... are changed to the spiritual body on that day. Christ's elect who will reign with Him are the "first resurrection" and never subject to the "second death".

Is there scripture that endorses these thoughts ?

 

[Truth7t7]

If the goats in Matthew 25 represented all of the unsaved, including atheists, witches, satan worshipers, so on and so on, you would have verses that can't be trumped nor disputed. But the goats don't represent all of the unsaved. Context matters. It determines meaning.

Dave there is one time of eternal judgment as seen in Matthew 25:31-46, this is when the book of life is open.

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 is the same final Judgment.

Dave you teach of three groups.

1.) Sheep/Righteous

2.) Goats/Intermediate State

3.) Wicked/Satanist, Witches, Athiest

Dave The Doctrine you Espouse Is Nothing More Than The Roman Catholic Purgatory, A False Teaching.

As The Roman Catholics Also Teach Of These Same Three Groups.

 

[DavidPT]

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


Do the unsaved, atheists, witches, satan worshippers, etc. live in "nations"?

If they do live in nations then we appreciate you saying that we "have verses that cannot be trumped or disputed".

.

Of course they live in all nations. But so do professed servants of Christ, both profitable and unprofitable servants.

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

When you can reasonably explain to me how on earth atheists, witches, satan worshipers, so on and so on, too, answer Jesus like indicated per verse 44, maybe then I might reconsider things. The text clearly says 'they', clearly meaning the goats, which according to your interpretation would be including atheists, witches, satan worshipers, so on and so one.


The following are some examples of your interpretation of verse 44.

Then shall the atheists also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall the witches also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Then shall the satan worshipers also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Versus my interpretation of this verse below.

Then shall the unprofitable servants of Christ also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


Seriously, which interpretation of verse 44 fits the text better? Mine or yours?

BTW, Jesus would not be the Lord of atheists, witches, devil worshipers, etc, satan would be their lord. Clearly these in verse 44 are addressing Jesus as if He is their Lord in an intimate sense.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


I guess this too can fit atheists, witches, devil worshipers, so on and so on, right? Not!

 

[Truth7t7]

No, no. It doesn't say that. See, this is where you have to be careful. We're not told that "only the rest of the dead live again". We're told that "the rest of the dead live again". You can't insert that word "only" because that changes the meaning.

The way it's written allows for the second resurrection to include both the wicked and the righteous. The way you say it, it sounds like the second resurrection is only for the wicked. You have to read it the way it's written and not change the meaning with subtle little words.

Revelation 20:4-6

There is one future resurrection of all that have ever lived, both righteous wicked John 5:28-29.

This same event is also seen in Daniel 12:1-2, that will take place near the time of great tribulation, when the final judgment takes place, as the book of life is open.

This event of the resurrection takes place on "The Last Day" John 6:40

Two resurrections will take place on the last day, "First" the righteous to eternal life, "Second" the wicked to eternal damnation in the Second Death/Resurrection

"First" Righteous, Eternal Life.

"Second" Wicked, Second Death/Resurrection

The saved believer is blessed to be in the "First" resurrection, on such the Second Death/Resurrection has no power.

 

[DavidPT]

Dave there is one time of eternal judgment as seen in Matthew 25:31-46, this is when the book of life is open.

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 is the same final Judgment.

Dave you teach of three groups.

1.) Sheep/Righteous

2.) Goats/Intermediate State

3.) Wicked/Satanist, Witches, Athiest

Dave The Doctrine you Espouse Is Nothing More Than The Roman Catholic Purgatory, A False Teaching.

As The Roman Catholics Also Teach Of These Same Three Groups.

I direct you to my post I just made to BABerean2, post #489. Prove your case there. Prove to me that all of the unsaved can fit the answer the goats give to Jesus per verse 44 in Matthew 25.

 

[Truth7t7]

Dave you espouse the false doctrines of Roman Catholicism, nothing new.

Dave there is no intermediate state as you teach in error.

Dave there is one time of eternal judgment as seen in Matthew 25:31-46, this is when the book of life is open.

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 is the same final Judgment.

Dave you teach of three groups.

1.) Sheep/Righteous

2.) Goats/Intermediate State

3.) Wicked/Satanist, Witches, Athiest

Dave The Doctrine you Espouse Is Nothing More Than The Roman Catholic Purgatory, A False Teaching.

As The Roman Catholics Also Teach Of These Same Three Groups.

I direct you to my post I just made to BABerean2, post #89. Prove your case there. Prove to me that all of the unsaved can fit the answer the goats give to Jesus per verse 44 in Matthew 25.

 

[LastSeven]

I disagree the word "Resurrection" is always reserved for the bodily, not spiritual.

Says who? You? God has no such limitations.

 

[DavidPT]

Dave you espouse the false doctrines of Roman Catholicism, nothing new.

Dave there is one time of eternal judgment as seen in Matthew 25:31-46, this is when the book of life is open.

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 is the same final Judgment.

Dave you teach of three groups.

1.) Sheep/Righteous

2.) Goats/Intermediate State

3.) Wicked/Satanist, Witches, Athiest

Dave The Doctrine you Espouse Is Nothing More Than The Roman Catholic Purgatory, A False Teaching.

As The Roman Catholics Also Teach Of These Same Three Groups.

You're not even remotely proving yourself correct and me wrong though. In order to begin to do that, you have to first reasonably explain why atheists, too, would answer Jesus in the same manner the goats answer in verse 44.

Purgatory? LOL. What does that have to do with anything? I don't believe in that nonsense. Never have, never will.

 

[Truth7t7]

Says who? You? God has no such limitations.

All accounts of the word "resurrection" in the new testament King James Version, are in relationship to the "Bodily"

Go to biblegateway, and do your word search, prove me wrong

 

[Truth7t7]

You're not even remotely proving yourself correct and me wrong though. In order to begin to do that, you have to first reasonably explain why atheists, too, would answer Jesus in the same manner the goats answer in verse 44.

Purgatory? LOL. What does that have to do with anything? I don't believe in that nonsense. Never have, never will.

Dave you teach of three groups in the eternal state, This is the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

You can deny you believe it, but you sure are teaching it

1.) Sheep/Righteous

2.) Goats/Intermediate State

3.) Wicked/Satanist, Witches, Atheist

The Roman Catholic Doctrine Of Purgatory In The Intermediate State.

The Holy Bible Teaches Of Two States

Kingdom of darkness, kingdom of light.

Name in the book of life, Name not in the book of life.

Saved, Unsaved

No Intermediate State As You And Roman Catholicism Teaches, In The False Doctrine Of Purgatory.

 

[LastSeven]

More confusing that is.

The "first resurrection" of Rev.20 is about Christ's elect Church that will reign with Him, and Rev.5 does... say they will reign "on the earth". Even the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20 are shown to be on earth.

Rev 5 doesn't say anything about the thousand years, does it? I believe that to be a reference to the new earth because Rev 22 tells us that the righteous will reign on the new earth.

So it sounds like you're confusing the requirements of flesh with a spiritual body that our Lord and Apostle Paul taught. The "spiritual body" which the resurrection is can live upon this earth just like we today do. The example the two angels God sent to Lot in Genesis 19 shows this as they had the image of man and they were able to eat man's food.

I don't know why you think I'm confused about the spiritual body.

I believe there will be a second resurrection also, but... another like the "first resurrection", not for the wicked but for those during the "thousand years" that will come to Christ Jesus and be saved at the end of the thousand years. That's how I understand about the Rev.20:5 dead that lived not again until the thousand years were over. The wicked who will still refuse Jesus will not 'live again' but into the "lake of fire".

A third resurrection? During the thousand years? I think you're making this far too complicated.

So the idea of Life in that future time when the concept of flesh death ended at Christ's coming, is Eternal Life through Christ Jesus only. If you are subject to Life in that time, then you belong to Christ. If you are subject to the "second death", then you reject Christ, even in a resurrection body.

I think we agree here.

So because there is a "resurrection of damnation" also, it means they are raised to the "spiritual body" too, but something they have is still 'mortal' and subject to the "second death". I believe that to be the soul, and what Paul meant with "this mortal must put on immortality". It involves belief on Jesus Christ and thus experiencing the spiritual regeneration of the soul.

I don't think we really know, or can really understand, what the second death is. It's a bit of a mystery. All I know is, I don't want it.

Therefore also, the "spiritual body" is just an image body type for the heavenly dimension. It does not mean automatic Salvation since the wicked of the "resurrection of damnation" also will have it. For this earthly dimension our flesh body image is it, but for the heavenly, the spiritual body, or also what Paul called "the image of the heavenly", is it.

You're right. The spiritual body does not mean automatic salvation.

 

[DavidPT]

Says who? You? God has no such limitations.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Take this passage for instance. His resurrection is clearly meaning Christ's, where I'm certain you wouldn't dispute that. His resurrection then, was it bodily or not?

 

[LastSeven]

All accounts of the word "resurrection" in the new testament King James Version, are in relationship to the "Bodily"

Go to biblegateway, and do your word search, prove me wrong

Actually scripture uses the word in relationship to the spiritual resurrection in Revelation 20.

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

 

[DavidPT]

Dave you teach of three groups in the eternal state. This is the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

You can deny you believe it, but you sure are teaching it.

1.) Sheep/Righteous

2.) Goats/

Only in your mind. Can't be teaching something I don't believe, that's ludicrous. I am pretty much anti-Catholic. I don't have anything against Catholics personally though, just their unbiblical doctrines. Which BTW, Amil is apparently one of their main doctrines.