Millennial Considerations

[LastSeven]

Hi LastSeven,

Actually God`s word tells us that Jesus is on His Father`s Throne at the moment.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father ON HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

So you think Christ`s own throne, His seat of power is......on the new earth.... may I ask you to have another think, for .....

`...He (God the Father) raised Him (Jesus) from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE BUT ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

So we see the Lord will have His own throne, seat of power, far above all. Yes He will rule over the earth and all other realms however His seat of power is above all.

What do you think? Marilyn.

Well, first of all, I hope we can agree that these "thrones" are merely symbolic. Unless you think that God and Jesus are both sitting together on a single throne all day. Sounds a bit squishy. And boring too.

In fact, Revelation 22 tells us "The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him". So again, it sounds like both God and Christ sitting on one throne together. Clearly it just means that they rule together.

And notice in Revelation 22 that their throne is "in the city". And that city is obviously "New Jerusalem" which is his kingdom, which is his people. In other words, Jesus and God rule the people from within and amongst the people. That's where Jesus "throne" is right now also. He rules his kingdom (his people) from within our hearts as he is in us, and we are in him.

Also, when you say that Jesus power is (or will be) "above all" I hope you're not implying that his power is above the father.

 

[LastSeven]

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

What does 'until' mean to you in this verse? Doesn't it indicate an ending to sitting on the right hand of the Father eventually? If it doesn't, that would apparently mean, if Jesus sits on the right hand of God for forever, this part can never get fulfilled----until I make thine enemies thy footstool. And that the 'until' in that verse is pointless.

It absolutely means that there's an end to his reign. In fact 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that when the end comes Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father.

More specifically however I believe it means an end to his lone reign, as on the new earth He and the Father will reign together. Until then we can only come to the father through Christ, which is why He (rather than the Father) is our king now.

 

[Davy]

Ezek 37:21-28
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
KJV

A King dwelling back in the holy lands God originally gave to Israel of old??? YES. And that has to mean a THRONE there also.

 

[Marilyn C]

Well, first of all, I hope we can agree that these "thrones" are merely symbolic. Unless you think that God and Jesus are both sitting together on a single throne all day. Sounds a bit squishy. And boring too.

In fact, Revelation 22 tells us "The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him". So again, it sounds like both God and Christ sitting on one throne together. Clearly it just means that they rule together.

And notice in Revelation 22 that their throne is "in the city". And that city is obviously "New Jerusalem" which is his kingdom, which is his people. In other words, Jesus and God rule the people from within and amongst the people. That's where Jesus "throne" is right now also. He rules his kingdom (his people) from within our hearts as he is in us, and we are in him.

Also, when you say that Jesus power is (or will be) "above all" I hope you're not implying that his power is above the father.

Hi LastSeven,

Did have a chuckle at your pic of Father & Son on a physical throne - a bit squishy. And yes the word throne is symbolic of rulership. So I liked it when you said `it just means they rule together` referring to the New Jerusalem. And no I obviously am not implying that Jesus will rule above the Father, for eventually `God may be all in all.` (1 Cor. 15: 28)

So now to the subject of where this throne/rulership is centred. We know from Hebrews that Christ is in the General Assembly which is in the 3rd heaven, with His Body and also the OT saints (spirits of just men) & the angels & the New Jerusalem. (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

Then we know that in Rev. 4 & 5 we see that Lord Jesus is given the power and authority to rule from that realm. Thus all other rulerships come under that rule.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to near the earth and is the rulership over the earth. We know that the Father and the Son rule their, however that is NOT the seat of their power & authority as it would place them under the angels, even under where Lucifer had His throne.

It would be like having the Queen of England come and rule the Commonwealth from my little town. No way. There is a seat of power & authority to be recognised.

Marilyn.

 

[LastSeven]

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to near the earth and is the rulership over the earth. We know that the Father and the Son rule their, however that is NOT the seat of their power & authority as it would place them under the angels, even under where Lucifer had His throne.

It would be like having the Queen of England come and rule the Commonwealth from my little town. No way. There is a seat of power & authority to be recognised.

Wait. I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that if God's throne is on earth that this would somehow make him less powerful than the angels or Lucifer?

 

[Truth7t7]

Truth 7t7 said:
'Rule #1 you must respond with a quote of my original post, no one sided debate.

Revelation 20:1-6 represents the Lords Spiritual realm, there is no earthly kingdom with mortal humans seen.

Angel, heaven, devil, Satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, your earthly kingdom isn't there, "Next"!

Two At A Time '

verse 3 says.... 'that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years be fulfilled, and after that he must be loosed for a season'

verse 7 carries on and says.... 'and when the thousand years are ended, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth....'

So even if he was imprisoned in the 'Lords Spiritual realm'...... the nations that he deceives afterwards are in the four quarters of the earth.

Unless you want to say that there is a duplicate earth with duplicate nations also in the Lords Spiritual realm ...... but then such behavior would not be in keeping with the blissful and happy 'eternal state'

you are doing exactly what amillennialists are famous for .....

Spiritualizing any verse as needed to support what is in reality an absurd and unsupportable position.

Anyway...... I have literally spent too much time in this thread to the neglect of other important matters ..... so forgive me if I cannot respond to any other posts for a while ...... however I see that several pre-millennialists have joined the discussion so I am sure they are well able to carry on the mantle..... with any luck it will still be going in the new year and beyond

As clearly stated, there is no earthly 1000 year kingdom seen in Revelation 20:1-6, as you alude away from this truth to verse seven when the 1000 years are expired.

No kingdom or mortal humans seen!

angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ?

Where is your earthly 1000 year kingdom?

In the books of Darby, Scofield, Chaffer, Walvoord.

"Its Not Found In My Holy Bible"

 

[Truth7t7]

When it comes to Amils though, they are clearly closedminded to anything allegedly proving Premil. Many Amils were actually Premil initially, but then eventually changed positions. On another board I knew of an Amil exactly like that. One time he indicated, that once one has gone from Premil to Amil, there is no turning back to the former, ever. I believe him since I have yet to encounter any hardcore Amils who were initially Premils then went back to Premil eventually. In the event you think you might present something that is going to make a hardcore Amil seriously reconsider Premil, you're only fooling yourself if you think that might happen.

So what is the point in even discussing these things with Amils? There's these readers of these threads to consider, the ones who read but don't participate in these threads. These discussions might help them to decide what seems more likely, Premil or Amil.

Dave Don't RunFrom The Direct Questions Below.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, nations are gathered for judgment.

erse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Versr 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Questions"

1. Dave do you believe the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is seen in verses 31-32?

2. Dave do the righteous obtain eternal life inverse 46?

3. Dave do the righteous enter an eternal kingdom in verse 34?

 

[Marilyn C]

Wait. I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that if God's throne is on earth that this would somehow make him less powerful than the angels or Lucifer?

Hi LastSeven,

His throne/rulership will be on earth, as we know, as well as all the other realms He has made. However we know that the final seat of people comes from above not below.

`Heaven is my throne/ (seat of rulership) and the earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

Marilyn.

 

[DavidPT]

Dave Don't RunFrom The Direct Questions Below.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, nations are gathered for judgment.

erse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Versr 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Questions"

1. Dave do you believe the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is seen in verses 31-32?

2. Dave do the righteous obtain eternal life inverse 46?

3. Dave do the righteous enter an eternal kingdom in verse 34?

Did I not already answer these in another post somewhere? If not in this thread, in one of these threads anyway. Don't recall offhand what post and what thread, yet I do seem to recall already answering these questions.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi Truth,

I see what you are saying and would like to respond. Yes it looks like when Jesus comes and judges the nations (on the earth, note) that some will go into the promised kingdom rule of Christ and some will go into everlasting punishment.

However we know from other scriptures that God sometimes jumps to the end and misses the part in between. The great example we well know is Isa.61: 2.

`To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the Day of vengeance of our God.` (Isa, 61: 2)

The Lord quotes this scripture in the temple but does not read the last part of the sentence for it was not the time. (Luke 4: 19) Isaiah was giving the overview while in Luke we read the part Jesus was doing while on earth. Thus we see we need to read all of God`s word concerning the topic.

So the people in Matt. 25: 31 - 46, are the nations being judged on earth (with an overview of their destination) and are not all the people throughout time being judged at the great white throne. Big difference there.

Marilyn.

I fully disagree

Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same exact final judgment.

The book of life will be opened once, for eternal judgment as seen in Matthew 25:31-46

I know you desire to see a 1000 year millennial kingdom at the return of Jesus Christ?

It Isnt Gonna Happen, As Scripture Clearly Teaches.

We Will Disagree

 

[Truth7t7]

Possibly you did somewhere, a simple yes/no will take all of 30 seconds

We will move on in discussion after

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, nations are gathered for judgment.

erse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Versr 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

"Questions"

1. Dave do you believe the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is seen in verses 31-32?

2. Dave do the righteous obtain eternal life inverse 46?

3. Dave do the righteous enter an eternal kingdom in verse 34?

Did I not already answer these in another post somewhere? If not in this thread, in one of these threads anyway. Don't recall offhand what post and what thread, yet I do seem to recall already answering these questions.

 

[LastSeven]

Hi LastSeven,

His throne/rulership will be on earth, as we know, as well as all the other realms He has made. However we know that the final seat of people comes from above not below.

`Heaven is my throne/ (seat of rulership) and the earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

Marilyn.

I'm not sure I understand your point. I'm also not sure if you're amil or premil. I thought you were premil but you've already admitted that Jesus currently reigns, so now I'm not sure.

 

[DavidPT]

1. Dave do you believe the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is seen in verses 31-32?

Yes, 100%.

2. Dave do the righteous obtain eternal life inverse 46?

Yes, 100%.

3. Dave do the righteous enter an eternal kingdom in verse 34?

Yes, 100%.


Now if you could only grasp whom the goats are meaning in that context, you too might interpret that judgment more correctly.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not sure I understand your point. I'm also not sure if you're amil or premil. I thought you were premil but you've already admitted that Jesus currently reigns, so now I'm not sure.

I too admit Jesus already reigns, yet I am Premil. Why would that make one more likely Amil and not Premil as well? Clearly there are many Premils who don't believe Jesus is currently reigning, but we can't paint that with a broadbrush though, as if all Premils agree He is not currently reigning. What He is not currently doing though, is reigning physically on this earth. That doesn't happen until He returns first. Sort of like with the kingdom. The kingdom is here in a spiritual sense, yet not in a literal physical sense. The latter occurs once He has returned.

 

[LastSeven]

I too admit Jesus already reigns, yet I am Premil. Why would that make one more likely Amil and not Premil as well? Clearly there are many Premils who don't believe Jesus is currently reigning, but we can't paint that with a broadbrush though, as if all Premils agree He is not currently reigning. What He is not currently doing though, is reigning physically on this earth. That doesn't happen until He returns first. Sort of like with the kingdom. The kingdom is here in a spiritual sense, yet not in a literal physical sense. The latter occurs once He has returned.

o.k. fair enough, but then I'd like to know, where do you see it written in scripture that he will rule physically on earth, other than the new earth?

Revelation 22 obviously shows Jesus reigning on earth, but I'm sure we agree that this is the new earth. Any other references to Jesus reigning on earth, would therefore logically be a reference to this established fact. Especially considering that there is no direct scripture that says Jesus will reign physically on the old earth, which means the only way you could come to that conclusion is by inferring it.

 

[Marilyn C]

I fully disagree

Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same exact final judgment.

The book of life will be opened once, for eternal judgment as seen in Matthew 25:31-46

I know you desire to see a 1000 year millennial kingdom at the return of Jesus Christ?

It Isnt Gonna Happen, As Scripture Clearly Teaches.

We Will Disagree

So are you telling me bro, that if I just feed the hungry, look after the poor, clothe the naked and give a drink to the thirsty, then I will have eternal life?

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

I'm not sure I understand your point. I'm also not sure if you're amil or premil. I thought you were premil but you've already admitted that Jesus currently reigns, so now I'm not sure.

Mmm where did I say that Jesus is reigning now, (except in our hearts)?

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, 100%.



Yes, 100%.




Yes, 100%.


Now if you could only grasp whom the goats are meaning in that context, you too might interpret that judgment more correctly.

Eternity begins, how do you have a mortal eternity?

You state the eternal has started, however you want a mortal kingdom?

I dont get it?

 

[Truth7t7]

So are you telling me bro, that if I just feed the hungry, look after the poor, clothe the naked and give a drink to the thirsty, then I will have eternal life?

Marilyn.

Matthew 25:46 "Eternal Life"
Matthew 25:34 "Eternal Kingdom"
Matthew 25:41 "Eternal Lake Of Fire"

1+1+1=3

You can call me Truth, it's a good handle for me

 

[Stephen Mendes]

DavidPT wrote:

"When it comes to Amils though, they are clearly closedminded to anything allegedly proving Premil. Many Amils were actually Premil initially, but then eventually changed positions. On another board I knew of an Amil exactly like that. One time he indicated, that once one has gone from Premil to Amil, there is no turning back to the former, ever. I believe him since I have yet to encounter any hardcore Amils who were initially Premils then went back to Premil eventually. In the event you think you might present something that is going to make a hardcore Amil seriously reconsider Premil, you're only fooling yourself if you think that might happen.

So what is the point in even discussing these things with Amils? There's these readers of these threads to consider, the ones who read but don't participate in these threads. These discussions might help them to decide what seems more likely, Premil or Amil."

Thanks for this insight David...... very thought provoking..... Amils do seem to spend most of their time attacking and vilifying Premil rather than publishing a systematic interpretation of the Scripture that reconciles everything (perhaps because they cannot)...... notice the vicious attacks on men like Darby, Walvoord, Chafer and Scofield..... they will resort to character assassination of men of God .... rather than publish a convincing scholarly document (with references) like the comprehensive text "the Millennial Kingdom" that I mentioned in a previous post.

For the benefit of all our readers here's two links showing the 'problems' of both Premil and Amil ..... so we can 'weigh' the two systems and forge an informed decision.

The first, documents the numerous problems with the Amil doctrine:


Amillennial Problems | Millennium | Lamb and Lion Ministries

This second, documents the supposed problems of pre-mil (as outlined by one of those Premil to Amil converts that you talk about)

Why I Changed My Mind About the Millennium

I am going to do my own Biblical research on the Second Coming ..... because I am not convinced that his assertions about it are correct.

I will publish my finding on my blog.....

Stephen's Bible Insights

a literal reading of the entire Bible supports Premil..... I understood Premil from reading the Bible alone as an unbiased teenager ..... long before I had ever heard of the likes of Scofield, Darby or Walvoord..... and long before I had ever watched Left Behind or read Late Great Planet Earth.

On the other hand the Spiritualizing of literal passages so common with the Amils in NOT intuitive ..... and one would have to be coaxed and coached in it to arrive at that persuasion.