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F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules

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You've been fooled.
(see my quote to you yesterday, in an unrelated topic, for backstory).

There is no incentive to build when the ISPs own the content they allow you to see AND can filter/throttle (called prioritizing) the traffic to your paid subscription level.

What would've been better for you would be to expand the the footprint(s) in municiple broadband (see Chattanooga TN). Surprise,surprise, the big ISPs oppose that as well.
Well, Net Neutrality has only been around for three years. It was fine before that. Actually, it was great. and my main concern is that I want as little government regulation of private business as humanly possible. Look what the deregulation of the airline industry gave us: Everybody flies now. The only real loser is Greyhound.

If there is a problem, then we need regulation. But there was no problem. The blunt and stupid brute force of the government regulations should only be applied as a last resort to solve a real, and serious problem. There was not one with the internet.
 
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I'm not sure I understand what net neutrality is overall.

It was in place for a while, and now it is not again.

Has anything changed between those two periods of time? I'm totally serious.

Did you have competition prior to net neutrality, and don't anymore?

I don't get it I suppose. Did they charge more to stream stuff before, and didn't after - and now will do it again? Is that all net neutrality is? Throttling?



I'm familiar with this scenario. People that live a couple of miles away - not considered the sticks - don't have any options....and never have.

They can get a hot spot from the cell companies. I haven't heard of any satellite locally, although that doesn't mean it isn't there. Although, Satellite is HUGELY expensive.

Many places don't have cable, fiber, dsl, etc. They didn't have it prior to this, nor afterwards. As far as the digital divide? That's something I would bet they never address. It will leave children behind in technology, but big companies like Cox, Comcast, ATT, etc? Its not their concern.

I wish they would find something that addresses that.
Regarding satellite, it's pretty much everywhere in the continental US. It is expensive, but not "that" expensive. I used it for a couple of years. The problem was throttling once you had used it. However, it allowed unlimited and unthrottled usage in the wee hours of the morning, which was good for my Torrent activity. I could time downloads for that time period.

My cell plan used to give me 40 gig per month and then it throttled me. However, when I got throttled, it was so slow as to be completely - and I do mean COMPLETELY - useless. I could not even check email. It would time out. And 40 gig gives you the ability to watch only a few youtube videos a month. My phone bill for two phones and one hotspot was $280.

Then, I complained about my throttled performance about a year ago. They told me about a 22 gig plan that was $70 cheaper. But the key was that they only throttled you if others were using the tower and you became the "low priority" user. Well, I'm in the sticks using a tower near a highway about a mile or two away. And the highway gets pretty light traffic. So I thought I'd try it.

We now pay $200 a month for two phones and a hotspot. Actually, it's three phone lines, in essence. All three can be used as a phone or a hotspot. I now have an LG G3 stuck in a window (better reception) that we use 24/7 for our home internet access. I use it when I work from home.

But here's the kicker: We have an amazon prime membership and a 55" 4k tv with amazon prime, hulu, web browser, etc. built in. We now watch pretty much anything we want as much as we want in this last year and have yet to be throttled. And the service is rock solid. i.e. videos don't freeze up. They will, on very rare occasion, go "low detail", but usually only for a few seconds, and only every couple of days. i.e. it's a non-issue.

BTW, it's AT&T.

We are now fully plugged in. I watch concerts, old TV shows, new TV shows, old movies, new movies, I could even watch live football games if I wanted to, but I don't. I watched a couple of minutes of a game a couple of weeks ago just to see if it worked. It did. And all this programming is free, though you do have the option of renting or buying some "premium" stuff.

Net neutrality was an attempt to get the brutish and "dumb, raw force" of the government involved in an industry to solve a problem that did not (yet) exist. If it ever becomes a problem, we can always do it. There was a LOT of money supporting both sides of this issue, as I'm sure Greyhound Bus did not want to see the airline industry deregulated, which brought prices to the floor (and quality to match, at least to a degree). Free markets are always the best way to go, with the exception of protecting the public from them cutting costs to the point where their product is dangerous. That was not the issue with the internet.
 
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I think you've been woefully misinformed about what Net Neutrality is, and the implications of it being repealed.

Them finding a "token IT guy" to support the repeal doesn't reflect the attitudes of the industry...as someone who's been in the industry for 12 years (the last 5 as a Sr. level developer for a 2nd tier VOIP provider), I can tell you that the lion's share of us do not support the repeal.

If you prefer free markets, then I would ask you why you support a system where regional monopolies hold sway.

If you like having multiple options available to you, then why would you support a system where companies can throttle down your options?

If you like environments that have opportunities for growth, then why would you support a model where an established company can use their existing monetary edge to box out upstarts and medium sized competitors?

If you honestly think that net neutrality stunts growth (in meaningful ways to consumers), I would beg you to spend some serious time researching it. I've spent probably 50+ hours researching this topic over the last 6-8 months. I have no doubt in my mind that Net Neutrality is a great thing, and that repealing is a shortsighted move that will hurt consumers in the long run.
I just pulled two articles as examples. I have a lot more. BTW, I've been in IT since 1983 and currently work on internet and intranet web development projects.

Companies can throttle you, I'm quite used to it where I live (see my post a couple before this one), but competition keeps them from doing it too much. And as I've said, even though I can't get cable or dsl where I live, I have several cell phone companies to choose from as well as at least two satellite companies.

Where there are regional monopolies, that is different. It is also a local issue.
 
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Well, Net Neutrality has only been around for three years. It was fine before that. Actually, it was great. and my main concern is that I want as little government regulation of private business as humanly possible. Look what the deregulation of the airline industry gave us: Everybody flies now. The only real loser is Greyhound.

If there is a problem, then we need regulation. But there was no problem. The blunt and stupid brute force of the government regulations should only be applied as a last resort to solve a real, and serious problem. There was not one with the internet.
The internet has significantly changed in the last 2 years. That ISPs are majorly pushing this should tell you this is bad.

Do you want to see a segmented internet? This is how that could begin.
 
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Skavau

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I just pulled two articles as examples. I have a lot more. BTW, I've been in IT since 1983 and currently work on internet and intranet web development projects.

Companies can throttle you, I'm quite used to it where I live (see my post a couple before this one), but competition keeps them from doing it too much. And as I've said, even though I can't get cable or dsl where I live, I have several cell phone companies to choose from as well as at least two satellite companies.

Where there are regional monopolies, that is different. It is also a local issue.
Can you explain to me the good that can come from allowing an ISP to block a website because it expresses opinions on it that it does not like?

Or an ISP extorting a major website for money in order to allow their customers access to it? Or an ISP making a deal with a major company to block its competitors from its customers?
 
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Let me respond to the points he makes

1) The net existed before regulation and good things happened.

True. Likewise so did everything else that is regulated today. When things are new there is no regulation and they tend to be rather free form. That does not mean that as they grow there does not need to be regulation ensuring things go well. We once had no laws about driving cars but as they gained in popularity it quickly became apparent they were needed.

2) There are not a lot of examples of ISP's behaving badly.

How many do we need before we recognize the danger of a lack of regulation. How many people need to be affected before we decide that allowing an ISP to decide which traffic is important and which is not is not a power we wish to bestow upon them? That we would rather all data had equal priority so that we could decide how best to use the bandwidth we pay for?

3) The government taking a hands off approach has been beneficial.

Here he has a good point in general. However I disagree with it in this case. As the internet has grown and become bigger and bigger companies are looking to profit from it more and more. Since that is the case the need for government to enact guidelines and step in on behalf of those who would have no voice otherwise has grown. I think that the government should treed lightly, but it can't be completely absent.

4) The legislation will stop people from getting services like "Binge on"

This is a service were people can watch certain video over their phone without using data. The way they do this is is to throttle the bandwidth. The issue here is they throttle ALL video bandwidth whether the user or the service had requested it or not. They then only allow certain websites to qualify for their exception from data. You can read more about it from EFF.
EFF Confirms: T-Mobile’s Binge On Optimization is Just Throttling, Applies Indiscriminately to All Video


In summery, he has a couple of decent points and a couple that fall flat for me. In the end I still fall on the side of packet neutrality.
You and I are not that far from each other on this. It may be our philosophies, regarding government involvement in free markets, that separates us the most. :)
 
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The internet has significantly changed in the last 2 years. That ISPs are majorly pushing this should tell you this is bad.

Do you want to see a segmented internet? This is how that could begin.
My position on this comes from my opinion regarding the government being involved in regulating free markets. I believe that the government is remarkably inefficient and untrustworthy, and a "dumb brute force" regarding pretty much anything it does. It means that I don't want to see it anywhere near how a business operates unless there are special circumstances. e.g. a monopoly or an entire business sector acting badly.

Where government regulation is important is regarding the physical safety of both employees and customers.

If all the things people fear happening actually happen, maybe then it's time to get the government involved. And fear of that exact thing is one of the things that will give a strong incentive to companies to not do those things.
 
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Can you explain to me the good that can come from allowing an ISP to block a website because it expresses opinions on it that it does not like?

Or an ISP extorting a major website for money in order to allow their customers access to it? Or an ISP making a deal with a major company to block its competitors from its customers?
More customers for the ISP's that don't block it.
Actually, wouldn't it be great if parents could use ISP's that, as one of their services, blocks certain web sites so the parents don't have to worry about their kids getting to them. Customer choice!
 
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More customers for the ISP's that don't block it.
Except in the US, there are regional monopolies.

In addition, it creates a segmented internet. Even without monopolies, it causes a tiered system where a % of customers may not access a certain forum, or a certain media site, or gaming service because of their ISPs decision. It has a net negative impact towards the access of information.

Actually, wouldn't it be great if parents could use ISP's that, as one of their services, blocks certain web sites so the parents don't have to worry about their kids getting to them. Customer choice!
I don't see how NN couldn't just be modified to allow adult-filter contents as an opt-in (nevermind that many software kits do this).

Instead, what we'll see (and we'll see this quickly, I suspect) is ISPs devising an adult-content package for their customers, blocking all porn (or as many as they can) sites unless their customers pay an extra X for the adult sites.
 
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Skavau

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My position on this comes from my opinion regarding the government being involved in regulating free markets.
The internet now functions as a public service. You are simply severely restricted in life if you can't access it, or can't access it without major restrictions. People who support NN do not see it as a free market, but a valuable cultural market that should not be subject to potential toll booths or arbitrary content blocks just so ISPs (who may fancy themselves as curators) can pocket some extra money. There is the emerging possibility of corporate censorship and content restrictions that come from this.

The internet is so ingrained in people's lives that the ability to access their websites is a part of their free time. The impact of no NN will not be instant, it may take a year or two, but I am pretty confident it will happen.
 
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Except in the US, there are regional monopolies.

In addition, it creates a segmented internet. Even without monopolies, it causes a tiered system where a % of customers may not access a certain forum, or a certain media site, or gaming service because of their ISPs decision. It has a net negative impact towards the access of information.


I don't see how NN couldn't just be modified to allow adult-filter contents as an opt-in (nevermind that many software kits do this).

Instead, what we'll see (and we'll see this quickly, I suspect) is ISPs devising an adult-content package for their customers, blocking all porn (or as many as they can) sites unless their customers pay an extra X for the adult sites.
I get it regarding regional monopolies - if they exist. But I live where I can get no cable nor DSL, yet I have many options. Competition makes it very nice.

Regarding the adult site blocking, I think that will be a great option for a lot of families. Dad doesn't want it and they don't want the kids getting to it. We'll see how it plays out.
 
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Well, Net Neutrality has only been around for three years.
Not true. Net Neutrality (NN) has been a public policy issue all the way back into the mid 00s (2004-2005), maybe even prior. What has only been around for a few years is the internet being classified under Title II.
The only reason for the change is that the courts, agreeing with the ISPs who sued when caught, said that the FCC lacked authority to enforce rules stopping abuses under Title I.
 
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I get it regarding regional monopolies - if they exist. But I live where I can get no cable nor DSL, yet I have many options. Competition makes it very nice.

Regarding the adult site blocking, I think that will be a great option for a lot of families. Dad doesn't want it and they don't want the kids getting to it. We'll see how it plays out.
Right, so why should normal customers with no kids have to pay more money to view adult content?

Also, what constitutes "adult content"?
 
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Not true. Net Neutrality (NN) has been a public policy issue all the way back into the mid 00s (2004-2005), maybe even prior. What has only been around for a few years is the internet being classified under Title II.
The only reason for the change is that the courts, agreeing with the ISPs who sued when caught, said that the FCC lacked authority to enforce rules stopping abuses under Title I.
Moving the goalposts.

I was talking about what was eliminated yesterday.
 
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Moving the goalposts.

I was talking about what was eliminated yesterday.
What was eliminated yesterday goes back years before Title II reclassification. The Title II reclassification was the result of the lawsuits that took place prior. NN rules existed before the Obama Administration, the ISPs were just more discreet in their flaunting of the rules.
 
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Right, so why should normal customers with no kids have to pay more money to view adult content?

Also, what constitutes "adult content"?
Um, because they are getting adult content? I also don't know if they would get away with it. The courts would probably come into play. I'm thinking more of companies charging EXTRA to block adult content.
 
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What was eliminated yesterday goes back years before Title II reclassification. The Title II reclassification was the result of the lawsuits that took place prior. NN rules existed before the Obama Administration, the ISPs were just more discreet in their flaunting of the rules.
What was eliminated yesterday was three years old. It may have been an outgrowth of other stuff, but what was eliminated yesterday was three years old.
 
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Skavau

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Um, because they are getting adult content? I also don't know if they would get away with it. The courts would probably come into play. I'm thinking more of companies charging EXTRA to block adult content.
People already get adult content for free now (unless said websites they use independently charge). Why would someone who accesses adult content now support having to pay more to access content they already access?

The ISPs don't actually produce that adult content, but without NN protections they get the ability to block websites by default then charge their customers extra for access to them.

This is the whole basis behind supporting NN. Without it, ISPs can just extort their customers and segment the internet up into a TV-esque service.
 
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What was eliminated yesterday was three years old. It may have been an outgrowth of other stuff, but what was eliminated yesterday was three years old.
Semantics. The rules deemed unenforceable yesterday were much older than the Title II reclassification.
 
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