U of T profs alarmed by Jordan Peterson's plan to target classes he calls 'indoctrination cults'

[TLK Valentine]

When I was in school - College? They used the term 'focused on'. For example, Sociology focused on theological prospective. Yes, it was actually a class! It was one of those short termed classes that we had to 2 of in order graduate - in addition to electives. It would about 6 weeks. They had plenty of classes like this that focused on something. You either took them between the Holiday break between semesters, or summer class.

Professors would also explain at the beginning of the term what they plan on focusing on. We got off the rails? lol we had professors that would remind us of the focus. It happens - we are human!

The term can be used for more than one approach. People may like to use the terms you mentioned, but from an academic angle? They tend to use that term rather than targeting or red flagging.

Although, I thought we were speaking of a website. Just like rate a professor is one. I wish we had that when I was going to school. I know a couple of professors I would have avoided, and chosen different ones. I'm speaking about from a new student's point of view. Heck, even ones with very large campuses too.

From the description I read about the proposed website? They would be communicating what they have learned from certain classes or professors. What the class product is about, etc. People would know what they are getting into if they decide to go for it, or move on to something else. I know my theology class was different compared to the description.

They hint on this in reviews on rate a professor as well, and no one is having an issue with that. That's why I don't understand all the uproar. You can read about this information already, but if you can verify it a bit more - or decide its a mock site? Or if you DON'T care - you don't have to use. Just like you don't have to use rate a professor.

I suppose we could say rate a professor targets or red flags professors too. Although, both sites to me do just about the same thing that we did in college. We talk about the classes and professors - and you learn which to avoid. Kids are just luckier than I was - you have the internet to do that beforehand.

Peterson has already referred to his site as a form of "nonviolent warfare." Kind of hard to not use the word "targeted" in a war context.

Also, from the man himself:

"I'm hoping that over about a five-year period a concerted effort could be made to knock the enrolment down in postmodern neo-Marxist cult classes by 75 per cent across the West. So our plan initially is to cut off the supply to the people that are running the indoctrination cults."

and:

"Women's studies, and all the ethnic studies and racial studies groups, man, those things have to go and the faster they go the better," he said. "It would have been better if they had never been part of the university to begin with as far as I can tell."

"Sociology, that's corrupt. Anthropology, that's corrupt. English literature, that's corrupt. Maybe the worse offenders are the faculties of education."

Sounds like the man has already picked his targets.

 

[HannahT]

No doubt, but they left sections of what he said out. Something people do all the time.

I went to youtube once this thread started to listen - I googled quotes that were printed here - and listened to the entire context. Yep, some of the sentences were said...yet the surrounding context of how he got to that conclusion, etc was left out. What he said to set the comments up? Left out too.

I'm left wondering why myself. I would assume other picked their target as well.

If they were truly honest about the man's opposition to something? They would put it all out there, and not just pick and choose parts...lol that show their POV, and not represent properly his whole thought.

He has good points, and not everything he says I agree with. Yet, not one article will go into the comments prior to the 'Sociology, that's corrupt....." comment.

It doesn't set it up, and I would guess that would because they don't wish you to know. I would bet also they figure you won't take the time to go looking for the context either. lol which people don't!

 

[TLK Valentine]

No doubt, but they left sections of what he said out. Something people do all the time.

I went to youtube once this thread started to listen - I googled quotes that were printed here - and listened to the entire context. Yep, some of the sentences were said...yet the surrounding context of how he got to that conclusion, etc was left out. What he said to set the comments up? Left out too.

I'm left wondering why myself. I would assume other picked their target as well.

If they were truly honest about the man's opposition to something? They would put it all out there, and not just pick and choose parts...lol that show their POV, and not represent properly his whole thought.

He has good points, and not everything he says I agree with. Yet, not one article will go into the comments prior to the 'Sociology, that's corrupt....." comment.

It doesn't set it up, and I would guess that would because they don't wish you to know. I would bet also they figure you won't take the time to go looking for the context either. lol which people don't!

Are you sure you weren't indoctrinated?

 

[pat34lee]

Once upon a time progressives - the label many use - have quoted and lived by: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

I think their movement has been hijacked, because the name calling, labeling, and violence?

More like the movement has metastasized. They have
gone so far left that they know the public will no longer
support them, so they must hide and lie about what they
believe, and to demonize anyone who would stand against
them.

 

[TLK Valentine]

More like the movement has metastasized. They have
gone so far left that they know the public will no longer
support them, so they must hide and lie about what they
believe, and to demonize anyone who would stand against
them.

You're just going to have to demonize them even better. Keep up the good work!

 

[pat34lee]

You're just going to have to demonize them even better. Keep up the good work!

They are doing that very well by themselves. Even if the
MSM tries to explain them away or ignore them when
they get too offensive.

 

[TLK Valentine]

They are doing that very well by themselves.

Even without you referring to them as a cancer, a bunch of extremists who the public hates, cowards and liars, all in a single post?

C'mon, pat, stop beating around the bush and show us your A game.

 

[*Starlight*]

Audit the classes. Have undercover "students" investigate the professors' methods; see how the educators react to the "ideology" being challenged. Compare the individual professor's grading to other educators in the same field to look for signs of bias.

if this sounds like a lot of work, it is. Rooting out radical ideologues is not a simple process...

That sounds like a good idea. Although, like you said, it's much more work. Maybe Peterson's idea could help bring attention to the existence of these radical ideologies in colleges, so that the necessity of audits like that will become obvious.

 

[TLK Valentine]

That sounds like a good idea. Although, like you said, it's much more work. Maybe Peterson's idea could help bring attention to the existence of these radical ideologies in colleges, so that the necessity of audits like that will become obvious.

But if we're relying on students reporting the teachers, then we have to deal with the probability of false accusations intended to tarnish the professors' reputations.

I know our friends on the Right complain about people's reputations getting ruined over frivolous charges in this overly PC society -- just look at what those lying, nasty women are trying to do to the fine, upstanding Roy Moore. Surely that's precisely the sort of "indoctrination" (to always believe the accuser) that Peterson hopes to be rid of?

 

[*Starlight*]

But if we're relying on students reporting the teachers, then we have to deal with the probability of false accusations intended to tarnish the professors' reputations.

I know our friends on the Right complain about people's reputations getting ruined over frivolous charges in this overly PC society -- just look at what those lying, nasty women are trying to do to the fine, upstanding Roy Moore. Surely that's precisely the sort of "indoctrination" (to always believe the accuser) that Peterson hopes to be rid of?

Yes, it's important to have some kind of safeguard against false accusations. Maybe by requiring some kind of evidence? Like a recording, or a textbook used in the class.

That's true, there has been a lot of accusations flying around recently. Many might be true, but it's important not to pass judgment and join witch hunts before evidence is shown.

 

[HannahT]

But if we're relying on students reporting the teachers, then we have to deal with the probability of false accusations intended to tarnish the professors' reputations.

I know our friends on the Right complain about people's reputations getting ruined over frivolous charges in this overly PC society -- just look at what those lying, nasty women are trying to do to the fine, upstanding Roy Moore. Surely that's precisely the sort of "indoctrination" (to always believe the accuser) that Peterson hopes to be rid of?

I do agree with you regarding the students. They aren't mature enough at times to take something like that on.

Although, (snickers) only thinking the right complain about people's reputations? That they are only ones claiming 'nasty women'? Come on now! You are getting into the weeds there! The extremists on both sides do it when they have to. That's politics, and the underbelly of it overall.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, it's important to have some kind of safeguard against false accusations. Maybe by requiring some kind of evidence? Like a recording, or a textbook used in the class.

We'll have to rely on the recording -- I've already made it clear that textbooks don't teach classes, professors do.

That's true, there has been a lot of accusations flying around recently. Many might be true, but it's important not to pass judgment and join witch hunts before evidence is shown.

Lock her up! lock her up! lock er up! lock her up!

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

 

[*Starlight*]

We'll have to rely on the recording -- I've already made it clear that textbooks don't teach classes, professors do.

Yes, but if the professor picks an ideological textbook for the class, it's evidence that the class might teach ideology, not science.

Lock her up! lock her up! lock er up! lock her up!

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

Seriously, what? This doesn't make any sense.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, but if the professor picks an ideological textbook for the class, it's evidence that the class might teach ideology, not science.

But professors don't always pick their textbooks -- sometimes they're limited by what the school is willing to order, and that can be limited by any number of factors... budget usually being the biggest decider.

Too many professors have to make do with what's available. This is especially true when we're talking about the Humanities, which usually aren't high on a college's priority list.

Seriously, what? This doesn't make any sense.

Why don't you try googling the phrase and see how many people actually care about "passing judgment" and avoiding "witch hunts"?

 

[*Starlight*]

But professors don't always pick their textbooks -- sometimes they're limited by what the school is willing to order, and that can be limited by any number of factors... budget usually being the biggest decider.

Too many professors have to make do with what's available. This is especially true when we're talking about the Humanities, which usually aren't high on a college's priority list.

So the professor is innocent in this case. Like I said before, it's not about targeting professors, but pointing at specific problems. Sometimes the professor is responsible, sometimes the college, sometimes the textbook author, and sometimes it might be something else entirely.

Why don't you try googling the phrase and see how many people actually care about "passing judgment" and avoiding "witch hunts"?

Not many people, I guess. There's been a lot of witch hunts around recently, and treating accusations as absolute proof.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So the professor is innocent in this case.

"innocent" of what?

Like I said before, it's not about targeting professors,

What you say is irrelevant, since it's not your project, it's Peterson's.

but pointing at specific problems. Sometimes the professor is responsible, sometimes the college, sometimes the textbook author, and sometimes it might be something else entirely.

Is Peterson's website going to address that, or is he targeting professors.

Not many people, I guess. There's been a lot of witch hunts around recently, and treating accusations as absolute proof.

You "guess" because you didn't google. And you still have nothing to reassure anyone that this isn't yet another witch hunt.

 

[HannahT]

We'll have to rely on the recording -- I've already made it clear that textbooks don't teach classes, professors do.

Sadly, today you tend to get in trouble for recording. This is where it makes it confusing. Your suppose to have proof, and yet you get in trouble for using it. In today's society video - audio - is the best way, but many campus's do not allow such. We have all read stories of professors getting recorded, and then school targeted the student instead of the speech.

It makes for a rock and hard place for legitimate professors, and those that are concerned about professors that aren't so good. Maybe placing some policies in the place for that?

Legitimate professors are going to care less about being recorded in class. I'm not speaking of a private conversation, etc where privacy should be respected. I'm more speaking of lecture type of things.

Yes, but if the professor picks an ideological textbook for the class, it's evidence that the class might teach ideology, not science.

Not always. My college kids have professors that don't even have them open the silly book that was insisted we buy for classes.

Normally, the head of the department - and people from the school - pick out and require the teaching materials. The staff have no say in this. Sure, they can recommend things. Yet, they don't always have the power to make sure that recommendation is granted.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sadly, today you tend to get in trouble for recording. This is where it makes it confusing. Your suppose to have proof, and yet you get in trouble for using it. In today's society video - audio - is the best way, but many campus's do not allow such. We have all read stories of professors getting recorded, and then school targeted the student instead of the speech.

Right -- recording professors without their knowledge (let alone consent) is considered illegal in part because those recordings can be distributed to people who don't feel like paying for tuition -- just like it's illegal to record a music concert or broadway play to avoid buying the album.

Do you want to encourage people to break the law in order to root out unpopular ideologies? What in hades are you fighting for, then?

Legitimate professors are going to care less about being recorded in class. I'm not speaking of a private conversation, etc where privacy should be respected. I'm more speaking of lecture type of things.

Yes, yes, "If you're innocent, you have nothing to hide..." Where have we heard that before?

I'm a legitimate professor, and I don't want to be recorded without my knowledge.

Not always. My college kids have professors that don't even have them open the silly book that was insisted we buy for classes.

Normally, the head of the department - and people from the school - pick out and require the teaching materials. The staff have no say in this. Sure, they can recommend things. Yet, they don't always have the power to make sure that recommendation is granted.

My point exactly -- and good luck recording the administrators.

 

[HannahT]

Right -- recording professors without their knowledge (let alone consent) is considered illegal in part because those recordings can be distributed to people who don't feel like paying for tuition -- just like it's illegal to record a music concert or broadway play to avoid buying the album.

When I was in school? You could use a tape recorder for lectures in class. Most classes were Lectures. If people want to listen to the lectures without the tuition? More power to them. You can't gain class credit for doing that. Not much to gain or lose there.

There are lectures on youtube already. Have been there for years now.

They had a mother in a news article recently. She was under the impression her child was being bullied by the teacher. So, she placed a recorder in the backpack. THIS was after she brought her concerns to the powers that be - and was swiftly blown off by the school. Yep, now they want to charge her with a crime. So, they didn't want to listen to her or have proof given to them either. In elementary school? Who are they going to take the word of? Teacher or child if they were not given anything? Chances are teacher.

Do you want to encourage people to break the law in order to root out unpopular ideologies? What in hades are you fighting for, then?

So, how you prove your point to the school then? Do we depend upon 'he said she said'?

Schools have administrations - whom I feel are the bigger problem than the teachers most of the time - are going to circle the wagon because that's what they do most of the time. Less effort for them.

How would you suggest rooting them out - the ideologies? I found most professors are very good. Then you do have some whack a doodles.

Yes, yes, "If you're innocent, you have nothing to hide..." Where have we heard that before?

I'm a legitimate professor, and I don't want to be recorded without my knowledge.

Yeah. No. Not what I meant at all. lol nice leap there! Legitimate professors aren't going to care, because people record their lectures for notes anyway. I did that in school too. I took notes, and listened to the lecture again to adjust them. It's not like this wasn't standard practice. Maybe something has changed since then, but it was no biggie when I was in college.

If you feel different I'm sure you let them know. (shrugs)

I've taught certain business related classes for the local college - it was a niche thing. I should care less if they record it. People didn't get credit for the class by recording the lesson. They got credit for doing other things. I also wouldn't care if they put me up on youtube like they have others. No skin off my nose. I assume if I'm in front of a bunch of individuals? It's not meant to be private.

College lectures aren't something they are going to put on their IPod as part of their favorite playlist.

 

[pat34lee]

Even without you referring to them as a cancer, a bunch of extremists who the public hates, cowards and liars, all in a single post?

C'mon, pat, stop beating around the bush and show us your A game.

I use words carefully, and never called them cancer:

metastisize
2. to spread injuriously:
Street gangs have metastasized in our city.

3. to transform, especially into a dangerous form:
The KGB metastasized after the fall of the Soviet Union. Truth metastasized into lurid fantasy.

And only the left equates not supporting something to hating it.

And extremists, cowards and liars is a judgment call. I just said
they lie about and hide what they believe. That has been made
self-evident over the last few decades.