My favorite argument for the existence of God

[xianghua]

No. In theory, at least, it would be possible for a computer running a genetic algorithm to make a robot. So one cannot say that all robots that will ever be made will be designed by an intelligent being.

but such an algorithm need a design too.

 

[xianghua]

Show me the problems with definitions using BICYCLE as an example.

ok. do you agree that by definion a BICYCLE is a product of design?

 

[quatona]

so you cant say if this is a car?:

Not without a definition of "car".

 

[bhsmte]

Not without a definition of "car".

Did Mr. Robot ever define what a robot is or did I miss it?

 

[quatona]

Did Mr. Robot ever define what a robot is or did I miss it?

He refused to - saying that he doesn´t like definitions.

 

[bhsmte]

He refused to - saying that he doesn´t like definitions.

Oh, I guess it is kind of risky to actually define what you keep talking about.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... In theory, at least, it would be possible for a computer running a genetic algorithm to make a robot. So one cannot say that all robots that will ever be made will be designed by an intelligent being.

Genetic algorithms can in theory make a robot just like genetic processes make penguins

This is why I think it's reasonable to say evolution is a design process, though not a purposeful one; a process of 'bottom-up' design, producing competence without comprehension. Natural selection filters according to the implicit design criterion of survival.

 

[doubtingmerle]

but such an algorithm need a design too.

And could not the designer of the algorithm be an algorithm that designs algorithms?

If a robot does not need a designer, as long as there is a robot designing algorithm, then do you agree that a penguin would not need a designer, as long as there is a penguin designing process?

There is a penguin designing process already--evolution.

 

[Kylie]

ok. do you agree that by definion a BICYCLE is a product of design?

Design by an intelligent agency, yes.

Of course, this is working on the assumption that a bicycle is defined as a metal vehicle consisting of a metal framework built of two triangles, with one fixed wheel, one steerable wheel (by means of a handlebar attached to a fork inserted through part of the triangular frame), with the fixed wheel connected by a chain to a gear turned by a crank with pedals attached so a human rider can operate those pedals and thus propel the bicycle with his or her feet.

I have yet to see anything fitting that definition which was NOT the result of an intelligent agency. Of course, if someone ever showed me how such a device could come about WITHOUT having been designed by some intelligent agency, I'd be happy to re-evaluate my position.

 

[quatona]

Oh, I guess it is kind of risky to actually define what you keep talking about.

Yes sure - when your point consists of mere semantics trickery...

 

[quatona]

so you cant say if this is a car?:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Wiki_libra.jpg/220px-Wiki_libra.jpg

No - looks like a self-replicating watch to me.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

so you cant say this is a car without defining it first?:

(image from wiki)

It's not a car, it's a JPG image.

René Magritte nailed this back in 1948, with 'The Treachery of Images':

 

[xianghua]

There is a penguin designing process already--evolution.

this is just a belief rather then a fact. so you argument is incorrect to begin with.

 

[xianghua]

Design by an intelligent agency, yes.
.

thanks. so if a bicycle was able to evolve naturally (without a designer) then we cant consider it as a bicycle. right? by the way (just as a note): english isnt my native so i may not understand some of your words.

 

[durangodawood]

It's not a car, it's a JPG image

No, its a car. jpg images dont have wheels.

 

[DogmaHunter]

but such an algorithm need a design too.

That's like saying that ice at the north pole is not naturally occuring, because freezers are designed and manufactured at a factory.

In reality, the freezer just replicates / simulates the conditions that makes water freeze.

Just like a genetic algoritm replicates / simulates the conditions that makes systems that replicate with variation and compete for limited resources, evolve.

The point is that the process provides a platform upon wich fully functioning systems can arise, without any pre-planned intent or purposefull design.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No, its a car. jpg images dont have wheels.

That's just the appearance of wheels, they don't really turn.

 

[bhsmte]

thanks. so if a bicycle was able to evolve naturally (without a designer) then we cant consider it as a bicycle. right? by the way (just as a note): english isnt my native so i may not understand some of your words.

You post just like juvy. You wouldnt happen to be related?

 

[durangodawood]

That's just the appearance of wheels, they don't really turn.

How can you tell that just from the picture?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

How can you tell that just from the picture?

Because it's just a picture. Send it back for a refund, you won't be driving it anywhere. You could print it out though, if that helps.