Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

[bekkilyn]

Unlike "do not take God's name in vain" the Sabbath commandment was quoted in the NT.

Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW testament says "EVERY SABBATH" the met for Gospel preaching for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles Acts 18:4
Unlike Week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "Almost the ENTIRE CITY turned up the Next Sabbath" to hear the Gospel - Acts 13
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4... remains as it was in the time of David in Psalms 95 according to Hebrews 4.

It is not just that Rev 14:7 quotes the Exodus 20:11 portion of the Sabbath commandment

This is called "not mentioning the Sabbath anywhere in the NT or showing Gospel preaching specific to the Sabbath" in some threads.

But as I keep pointing out "Bible details matter"

The New Testament Gospels are filled with discussion on observing the Sabbath...

Or ignoring all that scripture a person could just hope for opposite claiming by faith that "Observing the Sabbath is the *only* one of the ten commandments noticeably missing from the New Testament,"

Everyone has free will ... everyone here can choose as wish just as the NT shows many people doing.

But what I like about this topic is that BOTH sides agree to the Bible details I have pointed out regarding all TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the moral law of God - including the Sabbath Commandment. -- as I point out in my signature line.

None of those verses you quoted address the need for any NT believers to keep the Sabbath. It's not a matter of just mentioning the word "Sabbath" in a verse...it's the context in which it was mentioned, and there is nothing in the context that indicates that NT believers are to keep a Sabbath.

Mark 2:27 was Jesus admonishing the Pharisees against their legalism, not a command to NT believers to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 reinforces that *Jesus* is God, that he is Lord over everything, *even* the Sabbath and the legalistic rules of the Pharisees.

Acts 18:4 was about Paul going to the Jews in their synagogue, where he knew he would find them gathered, to witness to them about the gospel. He made a practice of going to the Jews first, and then the Gentiles. His primary goal was to spread the gospel, and he became all things to all people in order to witness to them. (1 Corinthians 9:22) Again, nothing about requiring NT believers to observe a Sabbath. His purpose as a missionary was to witness. It also wasn't about Christian *believers* gathering together every week. The Gentile meetings were in people's homes, not in the Jewish synagogues.

For Acts 13, you're leaving out much of the story. When Paul had went to witness to the Jews in the synagogue, they made him promise to return the next week, and it was *then* that practically the whole city came out to hear him speak, like if a popular celebrity decided to speak somewhere today. It wasn't a regular occurrence, and it wasn't about Christian *believers* gathering together every week.

Hebrews 4 isn't about observing the Sabbath. It's about the greater promise of God's coming kingdom. Trying to fit it into the context of a rule about observing a Sabbath day is missing the whole point of the message. Entering rest for the Israelites was about entering their Promised Land in Canaan like entering rest for believers will be about entering God's kingdom. And taken into the context of all of Hebrews, it is quite clear this book is not preaching about legalistic rule following.

Revelation 14:7 is not also not about observing a Sabbath day. It is emphasizing that God is the God of creation, which occurs in *many* verses in scripture, including in Exodus.

Yes, bible details *do* matter, and I'm still waiting someone to point out a verse from the NT that *specifically* commands believers to observe a Sabbath day, regardless of the day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone who reads Hebrews 4 can plainly see that the writer, and we don't know who wrote Hebrews, was not referring to the Sabbath .

So then let's actually "quote" the text -- no need to skirt around the Bible details.

4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,


“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

==========================

Paul tell us that the Sabbath that remains - is the one that David had when he wrote Psalms 95.

The wild extreme imagination that David was declaring the end of the Sabbath in Ps 95 is fully debunked by the obvious fact that by the time of Christ they still were keeping the Bible Sabbath.

Obviously.

The test "in red" shows us that the actual Bible Sabbath is being addressed in the chapter as part of the point that Paul is making.

The conclusion? 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

So whatever else one may wish to add to the chapter -- what it did not say is "There NO LONGER remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God".

And we all know it.

This is the easy part.

 

[bekkilyn]

He's talking about the kingdom of God, not some day of the week to be rigorously observed.

 

[Doug Melven]

because OBEDIENCE is the FRUIT of FAITH. If their is NO FRUIT you are still in your SINS and do not know him who LOVES ALL (1 John 3:3-10; James 2:18; 20; 26; Hebrews 10:26-27; 6:4-8).

What about a person who just got saved and they have not had an oppurtunity to show fruit, are they still in there sins? What about someone who has not been discipled yet?

Isaiah 56:5-8 specifically calls out gentiles for Sabbath observance.

Isaiah 56:6-7
6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him, and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

This verse also says we Gentiles will be offering sacrifices.
Why don't we do that?

 

[BobRyan]

Unlike observing the Sabbath, worshiping false gods and taking God's name in vain were at least addressed *somewhere* in the New Testament...numerous times, in fact, and even by Jesus himself.

Unlike "do not take God's name in vain" the Sabbath commandment was quoted in the NT.

Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW testament says "EVERY SABBATH" the met for Gospel preaching for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles Acts 18:4
Unlike Week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "Almost the ENTIRE CITY turned up the Next Sabbath" to hear the Gospel - Acts 13
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4... remains as it was in the time of David in Psalms 95 according to Hebrews 4.

It is not just that Rev 14:7 quotes the Exodus 20:11 portion of the Sabbath commandment

This is called "not mentioning the Sabbath anywhere in the NT or showing Gospel preaching specific to the Sabbath" in some threads.

But as I keep pointing out "Bible details matter"

The New Testament Gospels are filled with discussion on observing the Sabbath...

Everyone has free will ... everyone here can choose as wish just as the NT shows many people doing.

None of those verses you quoted address the need for any NT believers to keep the Sabbath.

Assuming believers are not part of "mankind"??

But those who still want to make the case that there is no "command specific to gentiles in the New Testament - that they should not take God's name in vain" could I suppose make such a point. I don't think it actually has the weight of Bible authority to delete that commandment - but they could always "say it".

 

[bekkilyn]

Unlike "do not take God's name in vain" the Sabbath commandment was quoted in the NT.

Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW testament says "EVERY SABBATH" the met for Gospel preaching for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles Acts 18:4
Unlike Week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "Almost the ENTIRE CITY turned up the Next Sabbath" to hear the Gospel - Acts 13
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4... remains as it was in the time of David in Psalms 95 according to Hebrews 4.

It is not just that Rev 14:7 quotes the Exodus 20:11 portion of the Sabbath commandment

This is called "not mentioning the Sabbath anywhere in the NT or showing Gospel preaching specific to the Sabbath" in some threads.

But as I keep pointing out "Bible details matter"

The New Testament Gospels are filled with discussion on observing the Sabbath...

Everyone has free will ... everyone here can choose as wish just as the NT shows many people doing.

Assuming believers are not part of "mankind"??

Odd, I could have sworn I responded to this exact same post earlier today, and yet I'm still waiting for someone to quote a verse from the NT that *specifically* commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Odd, I could have sworn I responded to this exact same post earlier today, and yet I'm still waiting for someone to quote a verse from the NT that *specifically* commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath.

I gave several - given that other gentiles like me admit that we are among the group called "mankind" and the group called "the people of God" aside from all the NT examples of Gospel preaching on Sabbath to both Jews and gentiles.

Which was the detail given as the response part of that post. That you missed?

Still-valid Ten Commandments (all ten) for Gentiles -- is a Bible detail so obvious that "'both sides" of the Sabbath vs Sunday debate accept it.

Really - it does not get any easier than that.

Aside from that obvious detail however --

I assume that those who still want to make the case that there is no "command specific to gentiles in the New Testament - that they should not take God's name in vain" could I suppose make such a point. I don't think it actually has the weight of Bible authority to delete that commandment - but they could always "say it". or else argue in that case "the specific command simply isn't there".

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 56:6-7
6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him, and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

This verse also says we Gentiles will be offering sacrifices.
Why don't we do that?

That was the form of worship in the OT

Adam and Eve would have had the Sabbath without animal sacrifice before the fall - but after the fall well there was animal sacrifice no matter if you were choosing to "not take God's name in vain" or if you were choosing to honor the Bible Sabbath-- there would have been also - animal sacrifices.

 

[bekkilyn]

I gave several - given that other gentiles like me admit that we are among the group called "mankind" and the group called "the people of God" aside from all the NT examples of Gospel preaching on Sabbath to both Jews and gentiles.

Which was the detail given as the response part of that post. That you missed?

Still-valid Ten Commandments (all ten) for Gentiles -- is a Bible detail so obvious that "'both sides" of the Sabbath vs Sunday debate accept it.

Really - it does not get any easier than that.

None of the verses you quoted *specifically* commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath, and adding a "mankind" in front of a non-command doesn't turn it into any more of a command than it already wasn't, probably because the specific command simply isn't there.

I can give plenty of examples of people shopping at the local grocery store, but that's not the same as a command telling people they are obligated to shop there.

 

[BobRyan]

Odd, I could have sworn I responded to this exact same post earlier today, and yet I'm still waiting for someone to quote a verse from the NT that *specifically* commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath.

And one that specifically commands gentiles not to take God's name in vain -- in the NT.

And one in the Old OR New Testament that says that the New Covenant is not "to the House of Israel and the house of Judah" specifically - but rather "to gentiles".

These sort of gaming the text of scripture is endless. I prefer not to engage in it.

How nice that C.H.Spurgeon, D.L.Moody, R.C.Sproul, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and many, many others do not resort to that sort of thing when it comes to admitting that "all TEN" of the TEN commandments are still included in the moral law of God for mankind. (Even though they are on opposite sides of the fence from me on this issue).

 

[bekkilyn]

And one that specifically commands gentiles not to take God's name in vain -- in the NT.

And one in the Old OR New Testament that says that the New Covenant is not "to the House of Israel and the house of Judah" specifically - but rather "to gentiles".

These sort of gaming the text of scripture is endless. I prefer not to engage in it.

How nice that C.H.Spurgeon, D.L.Moody, R.C.Sproul, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and many, many others do not resort to that sort of thing when it comes to admitting that "all TEN" of the TEN commandments are still included in the moral law of God for mankind. (Even though they are on opposite sides of the fence from me on this issue).

How is a scripture about Gentiles not taking God's name in vain have anything *specifically* to do with commanding Christians in the NT to observe the Sabbath? I want to see a verse that clearly says something like,

And God/Jesus said, "Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy as the Lord your God commanded you."

The above is what a command looks like. I'm not gaming the text of the scripture. What *is* gaming the text of scripture is trying to force scripture into saying what it's not actually saying, and if there is no clear command in the NT for Christian believers to observe a Sabbath day, then the conclusion must be that it doesn't exist there.

If something is of extreme importance, God isn't going to be vague about it.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Bob.

I was wondering where in the New Testament that I might find the following.

And one that specifically commands gentiles not to take God's name in vain -- in the NT.

 

[BobRyan]

How is a scripture about Gentiles not taking God's name in vain have anything *specifically* to do with commanding Christians in the NT to observe the Sabbath?

We are looking at the general idea that you are suggesting which is in its general form

1. Pick a commandment of God not quoted in the NT... so in real life that would be "do not take God's name in vain" -- but pick whichever one you want to view that way.

2. Ask the question of the form: Where in the NEW Testament do we find the text that says "hey you gentiles I specifically mean for you to (not take God's name in vain )... yes this means you gentiles" - where you can insert any commandment that you find quoted less often than "Do not take God's name in vain" in the NT.

Adding .. "I want to see a verse that clearly says something like that".

3, And when we find that in fact no text in the NT says "the command to not take God's name in vain was made for all mankind"... or the like.. we then conclude that... well that... "we did not find it in the NT but we did find it in scripture".

So then what would this mean for example in the case of "do not take God's name in vain"??

It would not mean a single thing.

Thus even though D.L. Moody and R.C.Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon and those who wrote the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and all major denominations on the planet - would all freely admit that the command "do not take God's name in vain" is never actually quoted in the form "hey- you gentiles.. do not take God's name in vain" -- yet all of them would add "this means nothing... so Christians should still not take God's name in vain".

=================

In your specific example you take one of the Ten commandments referenced more frequently in the NT than almost any other one -- and play that same "hey you gentiles... I want you to ...." game with it.

Which is fine... you are welcome to do that .. and of course you have free will. But even those scholars that do not affirm the actual Bible Sabbath will admit that this sort of game proves nothing.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

I was wondering where in the New Testament that I might find the following.

"And one that specifically commands gentiles not to take God's name in vain -- in the NT."

err... umm.... 'nowhere'

And of course - that does not mean anything in terms of giving us license to ignore that command of God

no matter that it might be a fun game to play when one has some free time

 

[BobRyan]

And God/Jesus said, "Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy as the Lord your God commanded you."
The above is what a command looks like.

Agreed.

Here is another example:

"Do not take God's name in vain"

Or if wanting it "specifically for gentiles" then "Hey gentiles -- the Lord your God commands you to not take His name in vain".

I think we all agree that these are great examples.

 

[BobRyan]

ple shopping at the local grocery store, but that's not the same as a command telling people they are obligated to shop there.

In the New Testament "they rested on the Sabbath according to the Commandment" this is said about the followers of Christ - Christians... as written many years after the resurrection of Christ describing the NT events.

It is said of both Christ and Paul that according to their custom they went into the Synagogue to read scripture on the Sabbath. There may not be a "grocery store commandment" as you point out - but God does have the Sabbath Commandment in the list of His Ten Commandments spoken directly by God and said by Christ to be "made for mankind".

=================================

Consider yet another game

I propose a game that goes like this "lets take one of God's Commandments - one of the TEN He spoke personally and find a way to ignore it".

I believe you and one or two others might say to me "Hey Bob - that would be a very very dangerous game. I suggest you not play it".

I might then ask you "why do you say that"??

And being a sola-scriptura test-all-by-the-Bible Christian might respond

Well consider this teaching of Christ.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Rev 14:12 saints "keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

"what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

======================

And if I say to you that I am deleting commandments of God that I do not find quoted verbatim in Acts 21 or Acts 15 -- you might respond that none of these commands are quoted there - yet all Christians know it is a sin to violate them.

1. Do not make graven images
2. Do not take God's name in vain
3. Honor your parents
4. Do not murder
5. Do not lie
6. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5
7. Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18

===========================

And If I reply that I don't think Christ really cares all that much about the Commandments of God - at least not enough to mind if we delete/tweek/edit them just a little... you might remind me of the teaching of Christ in Mark 7

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[bekkilyn]

We are looking at the general idea that you are suggesting which is in its general form

1. Pick a commandment of God not quoted in the NT... so in real life that would be "do not take God's name in vain" -- but pick whichever one you want to view that way.

2. Ask the question of the form: Where in the NEW Testament do we find the text that says "hey you gentiles I specifically mean for you to (not take God's name in vain )... yes this means you gentiles" - where you can insert any commandment that you find quoted less often than "Do not take God's name in vain" in the NT.

Adding .. "I want to see a verse that clearly says something like that".

3, And when we find that in fact no text in the NT says "the command to not take God's name in vain was made for all mankind"... or the like.. we then conclude that... well that... "we did not find it in the NT but we did find it in scripture".

So then what would this mean for example in the case of "do not take God's name in vain"??

It would not mean a single thing.

Thus even though D.L. Moody and R.C.Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon and those who wrote the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and all major denominations on the planet - would all freely admit that the command "do not take God's name in vain" is never actually quoted in the form "hey- you gentiles.. do not take God's name in vain" -- yet all of them would add "this means nothing... so Christians should still not take God's name in vain".

=================

In your specific example you take one of the Ten commandments referenced more frequently in the NT than almost any other one -- and play that same "hey you gentiles... I want you to ...." game with it.

Which is fine... you are welcome to do that .. and of course you have free will. But even those scholars that do not affirm the actual Bible Sabbath will admit that this sort of game proves nothing.

While you may be thinking of some general idea, I am asking (and have been asking) for a verse in the NT that *specifically* commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath. I'm not sure how much clearer my request can be, but it is clear that no one as of yet has been able to provide such a verse, or it would have been quoted.

Agreed.

Here is another example:

"Do not take God's name in vain"

Or if wanting it "specifically for gentiles" then "Hey gentiles -- the Lord your God commands you to not take His name in vain".

I think we all agree that these are great examples.

Indeed, and I am looking for exactly this sort of specific example when it comes to commanding Christians to observe the Sabbath in the NT. I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to provide this quoted verse.

 

[BobRyan]

I am asking (and have been asking) for a verse in the NT that *specifically* commands Christian believers to observe the Sabbath.

I can do that too!
===========================

1. Pick a commandment of God not quoted in the NT... so in real life that would be "do not take God's name in vain" --

2. Ask the question of the form: Where in the NEW Testament do we find the text that says "hey you gentiles I specifically mean for you to (not take God's name in vain )... yes this means you gentiles" -

Adding .. "I want to see a verse that clearly says something like that".

Indeed, and I am looking for exactly this sort of specific example when it comes to commanding Christians to observe the Sabbath in the NT.

That game is easy to play and in the example above we see that we can both play that game --- But like most games -- does not really mean anything when it is over.

Thus -- no matter the game played with it -- it is still a sin to take God's name in vain.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 2:27 was Jesus admonishing the Pharisees against their legalism, not a command to NT believers to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

the text you are careful not to actually quote says this about the ORIGINs of both the Sabbath Commandment and mankind..

"27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind made for the Sabbath."

And of course we have the making of both in Genesis 2:1-3 in Eden.

Yet another example of a specific text specifically about the never-mentioned-in-the-new-testament Sabbath Commandment

Are these just so-many-inconvenient-Bible-details to be ignored at this point?

================

Question -- which one of God's Ten Commandments can you not cover with this teaching of Christ?

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 2:28 reinforces that *Jesus* is God, that he is Lord over everything, *even* the Sabbath and the legalistic rules of the Pharisees. .

The text you are not quoting -- tells us which day is the "Lords Day" in a chapter where the subject is specifically about the never-mentioned-in-the-new-testament Sabbath Commandment

28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

The "Lord's Day" mentioned in Revelation 1 is only defined here in Matthew 28

(in yet another NT text that is not supposed to exist since this deals with the Sabbath Commandment which is not "supposed" to be mentioned specifically in the NT -- of all the TEN Commandments)