Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

[LoveGodsWord]

No, it does not have to have the word "commandment" in it, but it would need to include some sort of request or requirement to observe the Sabbath, and yet it does not. Nowhere in the NT is there a request or a requirement for believers to observe the Sabbath.

Well that is not true. Jesus teaches very clearly that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for mankind and he is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath is the "Lords day". If Jesus is teaching it and obeyed it as well as all the other disciples, we should follow it don't you think? The scriptures are pretty clear. (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)

PS. Why would God have to give the 10 commandments all over again when he already gave them over 4000 years earlier and God's people already have them? You argument is hard to follow especially when you consider all the scripture alone in the NT that is upholding God's 10 commandments of which the Sabbath is the 4th. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day and if there is none we should believe and follow God's Word.

 

[Bob S]

Yes, Jesus observed the Sabbath and the feast days and all the commands of Torah, so don't you think you should too since you do not believe Jesus fulfilled all the law? We see all the pictures of Jesus with long hair, but without his yamaka. That would be a false impression of what He looked like. He would have had long sideburns too.

Actually, the fact is that Jesus lived under Torah and we do not. The fact is that Torah was fulfilled at the Cross and we are under a new and better covenant without the ritual laws of the old covenant. The fact is that Sabbath and other old covenant observers cannot see this because of their preconceived beliefs, but the fact is that it is all there for us to glean. Paul was not a liar, but some because of their beliefs make him out to be one. Some have told me that Paul is just hard to understand. I don't seem to have that problem. When he writes that the 10 commandments have been "done away" Why would I question that and try to make excuses as to why he didn't really mean that they are no longer the guide of Israel and of course never have been the guide of gentiles.

 

[bekkilyn]

Well that is not true. Jesus teaches very clearly that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for mankind and he is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath is the "Lords day". If Jesus is teaching it and obeyed it as well as all the other disciples, we should follow it don't you think? The scriptures are pretty clear. (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)

PS. Why would God have to give the 10 commandments all over again when he already gave them over 4000 years earlier and God's people already have them? You argument is hard to follow especially when you consider all the scripture alone in the NT that is upholding God's 10 commandments of which the Sabbath is the 4th. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day and if there is none we should believe and follow God's Word.

The Jewish people were still under the old covenant of law before Jesus's death on the cross, and afterwards, many *Jewish* Christians still followed their customs and traditions. the Jerusalem Council decided which of these Jewish customs they would like Gentiles to follow for the sake of unity (not salvation) within the newly developing church, and this did not include circumcision or Sabbath.

Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew and was still under the old covenant until his death on the cross. To put ourselves under old covenant law because Jesus was under old covenant law is to ignore Jesus's new covenant of grace and the purpose of his death on the cross. His death on the cross fulfilled the purpose of the old covenant. It was completed. It was finished, and there are plenty of scriptures in the NT describing why Jesus came as Savior, none of which included observing a Sabbath.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because he *is* our rest. *He* will give us rest.

It is seems easier to trust in law and commandments and sabbaths because they are visible to us and seem to make more sense to us because the idea of working and earning our rewards is so ingrained in our culture, but that's not faith.

Faith is putting hope and trust in what is *unseen*. Like Noah did when God warned him of the flood, and like Abraham and Sarah did when God asked them to leave their old life behind and go to Canaan.

Likewise, we are to put our hope and trust in Jesus and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, to trust that *he* works *his* will in us and doesn't need us to try to do it all for him. We need to give up *our* control to him, and by clinging to the letter of law and commandments, we are informing Jesus that we don't trust him, that we would rather try and do it ourselves, thank you very much. It is prideful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LESSONS FROM THE PAST

There can be much to learn in the Old and New Testament scriptures because there is nothing new under the sun; the thing that has been is the thing that will be..........

The religious leaders in the mainstream religion in the day of Jesus made up many excuses not to believe and follow God's Word. Their claim to being God's children was that they were the children of Abraham and never in bondage to any man all the while breaking the commandments of God in order to follow their own man made traditions. (John 8:31-59; Matthew 15:3-9).

Jesus says those that were doing this were not following God (Matthew 15:3-9).

The scriptures tell us that only God's Word is true and it will be the judge of us all in the last days (Romans 3:4; John 12:47-48). We should be careful to believe and obey God's Word because God only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:32).

Those that do not have His Spirit are still in their sins. If anyone is living in sin they are not in a saved state before him who knows the heart that is desperately wicked (Hebrews 10:26-27; Jeremiah 17:9-10).

Some interesting scriptures and lessons from the past..........................

JOHN 8
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we believe obey God or man? Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God, or the Word of God?

Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow Him who loves all. Those that reject God's Word reject Him who loves them.

Jesus says to those that reject God's Word;

Matthew 13
14, And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

May God bless you all as you seek him through His Word

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Jewish people were still under the old covenant of law before Jesus's death on the cross, and afterwards, many *Jewish* Christians still followed their customs and traditions. the Jerusalem Council decided which of these Jewish customs they would like Gentiles to follow for the sake of unity (not salvation) within the newly developing church, and this did not include circumcision or Sabbath.

Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew and was still under the old covenant until his death on the cross. To put ourselves under old covenant law because Jesus was under old covenant law is to ignore Jesus's new covenant of grace and the purpose of his death on the cross. His death on the cross fulfilled the purpose of the old covenant. It was completed. It was finished, and there are plenty of scriptures in the NT describing why Jesus came as Savior, none of which included observing a Sabbath.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because he *is* our rest. *He* will give us rest.

It is seems easier to trust in law and commandments and sabbaths because they are visible to us and seem to make more sense to us because the idea of working and earning our rewards is so ingrained in our culture, but that's not faith.

Faith is putting hope and trust in what is *unseen*. Like Noah did when God warned him of the flood, and like Abraham and Sarah did when God asked them to leave their old life behind and go to Canaan.

Likewise, we are to put our hope and trust in Jesus and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, to trust that *he* works *his* will in us and doesn't need us to try to do it all for him. We need to give up *our* control to him, and by clinging to the letter of law and commandments, we are informing Jesus that we don't trust him, that we would rather try and do it ourselves, thank you very much. It is prideful.

Hello Bekkilyn,
You are changing the subject here as we were currently talking about what you said earlier.....

bekkilyn said: ↑
Unlike observing the Sabbath, worshiping false gods and taking God's name in vain were at least addressed *somewhere* in the New Testament...numerous times, in fact, and even by Jesus himself. Observing the Sabbath is the *only* one of the ten commandments noticeably missing from the New Testament, likely because it was the sign of the covenant made between God and the Israelites at Horeb and not with anyone else, and the purpose of that covenant was fulfilled on the cross. The *spirit* of the Sabbath continues in Jesus as it is through *him* that we are given rest.

This was answered with a lot of scriptures in posts # 257 and post # 261 above (linked)
I am happy to chat with you about a different topic but I hope you can see now that your claims in the post above are not true. God's Sabbath is not missing from the NT at all.

The Jewish people were still under the old covenant of law before Jesus's death on the cross, and afterwards, many *Jewish* Christians still followed their customs and traditions. the Jerusalem Council decided which of these Jewish customs they would like Gentiles to follow for the sake of unity (not salvation) within the newly developing church, and this did not include circumcision or Sabbath.

Acts 15 is talking about circumcision from the Shadow laws of Moses. Acts chapter 15 is not talking about the Sabbath at all and does not even mention it.

Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew and was still under the old covenant until his death on the cross. To put ourselves under old covenant law because Jesus was under old covenant law is to ignore Jesus's new covenant of grace and the purpose of his death on the cross. His death on the cross fulfilled the purpose of the old covenant. It was completed. It was finished, and there are plenty of scriptures in the NT describing why Jesus came as Savior, none of which included observing a Sabbath.

AFTER the death of Jesus all the disciples and apostles were still keeping the Sabbath according to the commandment (just a few Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10) If what you are suggesting is true; where does it say in the NT that God's 4th commandment has now been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? Simple fact there is no scripture because this is a teaching and tradition of man that has not place in God's Word.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because he *is* our rest. *He* will give us rest.

God's Word says.......

Matthew 12
8, For the SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH DAY.

This is because Jesus is the creator and maker of the Sabbath and the God of creation (John 1:1-14; Genesis 2:1-3) and he made this day a Holy day and commands his people to keep it Holy (Exodus 20:8-12). Only those that believe and follow His Word enter into His rest. Those that do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW His Word do not enter in because of their UNBELIEF. UNBELIEVERS have no part in the Kingdom of Heaven (Hebrews 4; 10:26-27)

It is seems easier to trust in law and commandments and sabbaths because they are visible to us and seem to make more sense to us because the idea of working and earning our rewards is so ingrained in our culture, but that's not faith. Faith is putting hope and trust in what is *unseen*. Like Noah did when God warned him of the flood, and like Abraham and Sarah did when God asked them to leave their old life behind and go to Canaan. Likewise, we are to put our hope and trust in Jesus and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, to trust that *he* works *his* will in us and doesn't need us to try to do it all for him. We need to give up *our* control to him, and by clinging to the letter of law and commandments, we are informing Jesus that we don't trust him, that we would rather try and do it ourselves, thank you very much. It is prideful.

No one is telling you to trust in God's Law for salvation. If no one is telling you to trust in God's Law for salvation and everyone is in agreement you have nothing to argue about here.

It's never been about following the law for salvation, its always been about following Christ by faith through love alone. Faith that works by love is what fulfills God's Law in those that walk in His Spirit (Romans 13:8-10). Obedience is only the fruit of faith and a sign that someone is genuinely following God's Word (Matthew 7:17-27). If you seek obedience without faith you will never attain it because this is the gift of God written on the heart (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 8:10-12). But if you believe God's Word, your faith will be counted for righteousness in God's eyes (Romans 1:17; Philippians 3:9). If your faith does not have the fruit of obedience (God's work in you) than you are still in your sins and have not seen him or known him and your faith is dead (Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9).

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless everyone as you seek him through His Word.....

 

[bekkilyn]

I am happy to chat with you about a different topic but I hope you can see now that your claims in the post above are not true. God's Sabbath is not missing from the NT at all.

Please quote a verse in the New Testament that *specifically* commands Gentile believers to observe the Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Please quote a verse in the New Testament that *specifically* commands Gentile believers to observe the Sabbath.

Hello bekkilyn

I only see from your posts that you keep changing the subject as you have not responded to my posts and the scripture in them.

I send you scriptures supporting my posts and what is said in them and I ask you questions and you ignore them and change the subject after I reply to your posts, then expect me to answer all your questions without answering my posts or questions.

It is ok, it is clear from your posts that you have your beliefs and that is what you want to hold on to and as such we are destined to disagree unless we have common ground. The common ground for all "BELIEVERS" should always be the Word of God. If we share God's Word in the Spirit of truth and love then we would be like the faithful Bereans to see if these things be so.

Thank you very much for the discussion though, it was enlightening to be sure to see what some others believe.

 

[Bob S]

SDas do not chat. They completely ignore plain scripture and only give their beliefs. They will probably not answer any of the things problematic to their point of view. For instance, I have shown that Matt5: 16-17 points out that not one jot nor one tittle will pass from Torah until all of Torah is fulfilled (brought to an end) like the dictionary explains fulfill. Yet SDAs do not keep feast days, they cut their sideburns and ignore 95.1% of the remainder of Torah. I have never received a straight forward answer. 2Cor3:7-11 explains that the 10 commandments "are done away", KJV. All I have ever gotten form the law proponents is a bunch of scripture with the word commandments, but not with a 10 to clarify which commandments.

 

[Dkh587]

SDas do not chat. They completely ignore plain scripture and only give their beliefs. They will probably not answer any of the things problematic to their point of view. For instance, I have shown that Matt5: 16-17 points out that not one jot nor one tittle will pass from Torah until all of Torah is fulfilled (brought to an end) like the dictionary explains fulfill. Yet SDAs do not keep feast days, they cut their sideburns and ignore 95.1% of the remainder of Torah. I have never received a straight forward answer. 2Cor3:7-11 explains that the 10 commandments "are done away", KJV. All I have ever gotten form the law proponents is a bunch of scripture with the word commandments, but not with a 10 to clarify which commandments.

You have never showed that the 10 commandments are done away with - you've only posted verses from Paul out of context.

Where are the scriptures from Paul showing the commandments are done away with? You've yet to show any proof

 

[Danthemailman]

Jesus only elaborated on nine of the ten commandments in his sermon on the mount. The commandment to observe the Sabbath was mysteriously missing. However, the Gospel is not the ten commandments regardless of how much some people really want them to be the "good news" that Jesus died on the cross for.

Jesus only elaborated on nine of the ten commandments in his sermon on the mount. The commandment to observe the Sabbath was mysteriously missing. However, the Gospel is not the ten commandments regardless of how much some people really want them to be the "good news" that Jesus died on the cross for.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16). We believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christas as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16). We believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christas as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The "Gospel" (good news) is EVERY Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and it is God's Word that we are to live by and have life (Matthew 4:4). The "Gospel" was being preached before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (e.g. Mark 1:15; 8:35; Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; 11:5; 24:14; Luke 4:18; 7:22; 20:11) The Good New (Gospel) is indeed Jesus, His life, death, resurrection and new administration as our great high priest, but Jesus is the Word of God. The Gospel is the WORD OF GOD and it is the WORD OF GOD that we are to BELIEVE and live by. (Matthew 4:4; John 1-1-4; John 3:16). If we are NOT BELIEVING and LIVING by the WORD OF GOD we have yet to experience God's GRACE through FAITH, because OBEDIENCE is the FRUIT of FAITH. If their is NO FRUIT you are still in your SINS and do not know him who LOVES ALL (1 John 3:3-10; James 2:18; 20; 26; Hebrews 10:26-27; 6:4-8).

 

[Bob S]

You have never showed that the 10 commandments are done away with - you've only posted verses from Paul out of context.

Where are the scriptures from Paul showing the commandments are done away with? You've yet to show any proof

How could the following be out of context? It is a full paragraph about the 10 commandments. Excuses do not work my friend. Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were done away. If you cannot see that fact then I don't know how Paul could have written it so that you would be able to see.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.


11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: KJV

The subject is the 10 commandments, not Moses' face like some try to pawn off on us. Does P aul write that now we are without any instructions? Absolutely not. He writes that the Holy Spirit has replaced the 10 as our guide. Israel had the 10, Christians have the Holy Spirit. Now it is up to us to choose which one we will allow to lead us into righteousness. I chose the Holy Spirit, how about you?

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

 

[Dkh587]

How could the following be out of context? It is a full paragraph about the 10 commandments. Excuses do not work my friend. Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were done away. If you cannot see that fact then I don't know how Paul could have written it so that you would be able to see.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.


11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: KJV

The subject is the 10 commandments, not Moses' face like some try to pawn off on us. Does P aul write that now we are without any instructions? Absolutely not. He writes that the Holy Spirit has replaced the 10 as our guide. Israel had the 10, Christians have the Holy Spirit. Now it is up to us to choose which one we will allow to lead us into righteousness. I chose the Holy Spirit, how about you?

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

The verses in and of themselves are not out of context - the way *you* are presenting them is out of context

Ephesians 6:1 records Paul teaching from the 10 commandments, so obviously what you are teaching is not in context, otherwise you make Paul out to be contradicting himself

Paul himself even says that what matters in life is not who you are, but it's keeping God's commandments that count 1 Corinthians 7:19

These 2 witnesses show what you are teaching is not what Paul is teaching.

 

[Danthemailman]

Please quote a verse in the New Testament that *specifically* commands Gentile believers to observe the Sabbath.

I could not find one verse under the New Covenant that *specifically* commands Gentile believers to observe the Sabbath. *I also could not find one verse that says worshipping God on Sunday is a sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Unlike observing the Sabbath, worshiping false gods and taking God's name in vain were at least addressed *somewhere* in the New Testament...numerous times, in fact, and even by Jesus himself.

Unlike "do not take God's name in vain" the Sabbath commandment was quoted in the NT.

Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27
Unlike week-day-1 the New Testament says Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW testament says "EVERY SABBATH" the met for Gospel preaching for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles Acts 18:4
Unlike Week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "Almost the ENTIRE CITY turned up the Next Sabbath" to hear the Gospel - Acts 13
Unlike week-day-1 the NEW Testament says "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4... remains as it was in the time of David in Psalms 95 according to Hebrews 4.

It is not just that Rev 14:7 quotes the Exodus 20:11 portion of the Sabbath commandment

This is called "not mentioning the Sabbath anywhere in the NT or showing Gospel preaching specific to the Sabbath" in some threads.

But as I keep pointing out "Bible details matter"

The New Testament Gospels are filled with discussion on observing the Sabbath...

Or ignoring all that scripture a person could just hope for opposite claiming by faith that "Observing the Sabbath is the *only* one of the ten commandments noticeably missing from the New Testament,"

Everyone has free will ... everyone here can choose as wish just as the NT shows many people doing.

But what I like about this topic is that BOTH sides agree to the Bible details I have pointed out regarding all TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the moral law of God - including the Sabbath Commandment. -- as I point out in my signature line.

 

[BobRyan]

I could not find one verse under the New Covenant that *specifically* commands Gentile believers to observe the Sabbath. *I also could not find one verse that says worshipping God on Sunday is a sin.

I could find a number of verses in the actual Bible telling gentiles to observe the Sabbath.

Isaiah 56:5-8 specifically calls out gentiles for Sabbath observance.
Isaiah 66:23 gentiles as part of "all mankind" are to keep Sabbath for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth. "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" - and of course we gentiles are indeed a part of "Mankind" even to this day
Heb 4 "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (remains as it was in Ps 95 in the time of David) and of course we gentiles are still part of "the people of God"
Acts 13 "almost the entire city " of GENTILES shows up "the next SABBATH to hear Gospel preaching"
Acts 15 "Moses being preached every SABBATH" is a key detail in the solution "for gentile Christians"

The point remains for those who have 66 books in their Bibles.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12


But what I like about this topic is that BOTH sides agree to the Bible details I have pointed out regarding all TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the moral law of God - including the Sabbath Commandment. -- as I point out in my signature line.

(it just does not "get" any easier than this)

 

[Bob S]

The verses in and of themselves are not out of context - the way *you* are presenting them is out of context

What do you mean the way I present them? I merely quote what is written and highlight the points Paul made.

Ephesians 6:1 records Paul teaching from the 10 commandments, so obviously what you are teaching is not in context, otherwise you make Paul out to be contradicting himself

Did you notice Paul never taught keeping the Sabbath? All but one commandment in the 10 are about how we are to relate to our God and to our fellow man. One was how the Israelites were to observe a day. The law of love that Jesus taught us as a commandment contains many more rules of conduct than the 9 commands of the 10 commandments. For instance there is no command in the 10 to love God or our fellow man. Yet Jesus said the greatest command is to love.He also gave us a new command to love others as He loves us. He gave His life for us. Do you see anything in the 10 about sacrificing ourselves for others? You who cling to the 10 are denying what Jesus did for all mankind.

Paul himself even says that what matters in life is not who you are, but it's keeping God's commandments that count 1 Corinthians 7:19

Yes he did and in looking at that verse do you see a 10 in front of commandments. Question: is Jesus God? A 10 would have qualified that the verse meant the 10 commandments, but it is never there in any scripture form Paul or anyone else. John in 1Jn 3:19-24 writes this: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Do you belong to the truth or have you been told things that do not add up when we search scripture for answers?

These 2 witnesses show what you are teaching is not what Paul is teaching.

I beg your pardon, those verses do not, in any way, prove that i have not presented the real truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Did you notice Paul never taught keeping the Sabbath?

or not taking God's name in vain.

Unless of course Paul wrote Hebrews 4 "There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God"
Unless of course Paul wrote Eph 6:2 where Paul appeals to the ENTIRE UNIT of TEN as still valid.

 

[Bob S]

Anyone who reads Hebrews 4 can plainly see that the writer, and we don't know who wrote Hebrews, was not referring to the Sabbath given to Israel at Sinai. The people the writer was writing to were Jews that were adamant about observing the Israelite Sabbath. They didn't need to be preached to about keeping the day. The writer was referring to our rest in our Savior Jesus Christ. Anyone that tries to make it sound like the writer was referring to those Jews that the day remains would have been preaching to the choir.

 

[listed]

Well that is not true. Jesus teaches very clearly that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for mankind and he is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath is the "Lords day". If Jesus is teaching it and obeyed it as well as all the other disciples, we should follow it don't you think? The scriptures are pretty clear. (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)

Which reference doy ouc laimis arequireme nt to keep the sabbath?q

PS. Why would God have to give the 10 commandments all over again when he already gave them over 4000 years earlier and God's people already have them? You argument is hard to follow especially when you consider all the scripture alone in the NT that is upholding God's 10 commandments of which the Sabbath is the 4th. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day and if there is none we should believe and follow God's Word.

Because of Jeremiah 31:31-33 which declares the new covenant won't be like the old covenant.