The Church is absolutely unnecessary.

[zelosravioli]

As children we grow, but once we are grown we need no teacher. The HS guides us (W2L#114)
True God doesn't need anyones help, and His Spirit is enough, yet... God has more for us...

Note that I came to Christ on my own, I was living alone in a warehouse, and God came to me. I got to know God/Jesus better by reading my bible, a lot, all alone in that warehouse. My faith and the excitement of this new life grew and led me to find other people who were as excited about God and salvation, as I was! I did meet some some great christians, and I've made some priceless long time friends, by attending 'bible groups' (and not by sitting in pews). I believe Christian 'friendship' is the Highest form of Christianity.

My faith and understanding is increased by others, sharpened by others, practiced with others, and fulfilled with others - and now I know and I believe this is how God works - God works through people.

We 'can' live practically alone, and we can live with just the company of God and His Spirit - but as noted, God speaks of love, giving, charity, caring, forgiving, celebrating, communing, etc. all these are done 'with' one another. I might note 'it is not good for a man to be alone', I do not believe it is healthy, or in our best interest too have too few friendships. I wouldn't stress over it so as to make it worse, but 'hope' to be able to find good people to fellowship 'with'.

 

[zelosravioli]

Brian, some reasons to believe the early Church was all about people:
The incarnation speaks of God wanting to be with us and commune 'with' us. Eternity speaks of a time when we will 'all be one' and 'live together in peace'.

Some other reasons to believe the early Church was all about people:
Jesus modeled being 'with' His disciples, they spent most their time 'together'.
The early Church called one another brothers and sisters. This was new, this was closeness, kinship, a family, a big family.
The early Church main ambition was to tell the good news - to people, unbelieving people.
The early Church had a command to go and make disciples - that means going and being with other believers.

The Christian community was 'identified' by their love for one another. I agree that this is something that might be easier for some than others, but nevertheless community and oneness is a goal for us, and the HS will help us 'learn' to love others (sometimes this means forgiving, patience, dying to self.. etc.) this is Gods purpose and desire - that we learn to love one another.

 

[W2L]

As children we grow, but once we are grown we need no teacher. The HS guides us (W2L#114)
True God doesn't need anyones help, and His Spirit is enough, yet... God has more for us...

Note that I came to Christ on my own, I was living alone in a warehouse, and God came to me. I got to know God/Jesus better by reading my bible, a lot, all alone in that warehouse. My faith and the excitement of this new life grew and led me to find other people who were as excited about God and salvation, as I was! I did meet some some great christians, and I've made some priceless long time friends, by attending 'bible groups' (and not by sitting in pews). I believe Christian 'friendship' is the Highest form of Christianity.

My faith and understanding is increased by others, sharpened by others, practiced with others, and fulfilled with others - and now I know and I believe this is how God works - God works through people.

We 'can' live practically alone, and we can live with just the company of God and His Spirit - but as noted, God speaks of love, giving, charity, caring, forgiving, celebrating, communing, etc. all these are done 'with' one another. I might note 'it is not good for a man to be alone', I do not believe it is healthy, or in our best interest too have too few friendships. I wouldn't stress over it so as to make it worse, but 'hope' to be able to find good people to fellowship 'with'.

Thanks. You should either reply to my post or put a @ before my user name, that way i will get your reply in my notifications.

Dont underestimate the power of online fellowship. Sure being able to engage in church activities would be nice, but i have social anxiety disorder and thats why i dont go to church. Maybe one day i will join a body of believers but till then the Lord is my teacher always.

 

[David Kent]

Jesus died to release us from the curse of the law of the adulterous bride that Israel broke (whoring out to other "gods"), keeping them (us) from the Creator forever. Until Jesus died, only Judah was able to come close to God, but now, by faith in Jesus, we all are able to become Israel, and all are able to approach Him on His Holy Throne.

Not true. Rahab, the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite were saved.

 

[David Kent]

The Torah can't save. It is grace that saves. David wasn't saved by keeping the law but repenting of his sin.

The Jews could not keep the law.

We had a speaker from Christian Witness to Israel who is in contact with many Jews. He said he asked one of his Jewish contacts if he thought that he kept the law, and the man replied, "I am 99% sure that I keep all the law." to which the reply was "I am 200% sure that you don't and I think that the Post Office will agree with me, because when you receive my letter, you steam the envelope open read it, write your reply and put it in the envelope, reseal it and mark it 'Not known, return to sender'."

 

[David Kent]

• Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

• Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
• Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
• Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
• Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
• Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
• Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
• Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
• Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
• Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
• Hebrews 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
• Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
• Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
• Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
• Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
• Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
• Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

[Francis Drake]

I believe hearing from God is a seven step process...

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation by acknowledging and believing on Jesus
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Partaking of the Word of God.
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, spiritual fruit, etc.
6. The Golden Incense Altar - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Thankfully this is just your make believe and not actual truth. If it were truth, then nobody would ever hear God.
Abraham knew absolutely nothing of your rules, yet he heard God calling him out of Mesopotamia.
Acts7v3‘Leave your country and your people,’ God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’

And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him. - Numbers 7:89

It was in the Holy of Holies that God spoke to Moses. It is also the place where you can hear from him too.

Long before God told him to build the tabernacle or the Holy of Holies, Moses heard God speak in a burning bush, and in many other obscure locations.

But to journey on into the Holy of Holies you must do so with a congregation of people, called the church, otherwise you will remain in the flesh.

Again more nonsense.
Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc all heard God speak in the wilderness.
I heard God speak to me over 10 years before I heard the gospel and became a Christian.
For the last 50 years I have been hearing God speak to me, mostly outside of the church.

My wife at the age of 3 had third heaven experiences where she met Jesus and saw the heavenly city like Paul did. She did not hear the gospel till she was 18 years old.
I thank God that what you say isn't true otherwise my wife and I would have been excluded from God's voice.

I'm sorry my friend, but you sound just like a man who has all the theory of hearing God speak, but has never personally encountered it.
I learned a long time ago not to put God in a box of my own making. He speaks in countless different ways to different people.

 

[Devin P]

Not true. Rahab, the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite were saved.

Right, but you're ignoring the rest of that quote. The part where I said, only those who came through Israel were to be saved. Rahab came to find salvation through Israel.

Once God divorced Israel, only Judah was left is what I was saying, the time of Rahab came long before Israel being divorced from God.

When it comes to Ruth, she was saved through Judah. She partook of passover, and kept the law. The entire process of her finding a "redeemer" was according to Torah. See, in the the tribes of Joseph that split into two (Manashsheh and Ephraim) there was a group of daughters that had no brother. Their father didn't get any sons, only daughters. So, Moses had to (by God's instruction) instruct Israel as to how inheritance would work when it came to this. When no son would be there to carry on the name and tribe of a family.

For example, if (random name for example sake) Beth was without family, as in her mother father and brothers and sisters died, and she was left. Say, she's from the tribe of Issachar. If she were to marry into the tribe of Ephraim, then her family would be lost. The lineage would be gone, disappearing into Ephraim. So, Moses concluded, that Beth would have to have a redeemer. She'd have to marry someone from her tribe (in this example, Beth's tribe is Issachar). So, she'd have to marry a man from the family of her lost husband, e.g., brothers, uncles, cousins, sons, etc. from the tribe of Issachar, and that man would be redeeming her family's lineage. Note, this only happened when there hadn't been a son born yet to the line.

So, Ruth, (by marriage, of the tribe of Judah), married one of the brothers of the father of her husband. She married the uncle of her husband, who was in the same tribe. Therefore, she was, and Naomi was redeemed from her line being lost due to the death of Naomi's husband and her sons. In doing this, she kept Torah.

My point is, when someone is saved this way, unless it was through deception (not ideal, and would always bite Israel in the butt), the person redeemed would have to keep torah. Ruth obeyed this law that redeemed her line, and the text makes it known that she knew about, and believed in keeping and observing it. She even called Boaz (the one who would redeem her) a near kinsman, and that his being a near kinsman was the reason she desired him to redeem her, which is what was required in this situation according to torah.

 

[Devin P]

The Torah can't save. It is grace that saves. David wasn't saved by keeping the law but repenting of his sin.

The Jews could not keep the law.

We had a speaker from Christian Witness to Israel who is in contact with many Jews. He said he asked one of his Jewish contacts if he thought that he kept the law, and the man replied, "I am 99% sure that I keep all the law." to which the reply was "I am 200% sure that you don't and I think that the Post Office will agree with me, because when you receive my letter, you steam the envelope open read it, write your reply and put it in the envelope, reseal it and mark it 'Not known, return to sender'."

I never said keeping Torah is what saves you, I legit just posted something on this exact thing. Faith is what saves you, but that salvation will have a byproduct called Torah Observance.

All repentance is, is avoiding sins, being sorry for sins, and turning back from your sins. All sins are, is the breaking of the Torah. We are saved by pleading to God, and asking for forgiveness. By mercy we are saved, but that salvation will work in our hearts, repentance. Repentance means turning from sin, and sin is the breaking of the Torah. Therefore, when we are saved, it should result in us walking out Torah. Not for salvation, but as a direct result of the salvation we are already assured.

Two different things.

And I can't help that the Jew felt he was keeping Torah perfectly. No one can, this is reflected in Romans 7. Paul desired to keep the law, with his heart and his mind, but his flesh made it impossible. He pointed out, that though his flesh causes him to sin, Jesus will redeem him from this impossibility, but in Romans 8, he points out that he still desires to keep Torah, though his flesh rebells.

So no, Torah doesn't save us. It's the weapon we use after we are already saved, to keep us from destruction, and guide our footsteps on the path of righteousness. Not self-righteousness, but righteousness. As it's written "he who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous."

 

[David Kent]

Right, but you're ignoring the rest of that quote. The part where I said, only those who came through Israel were to be saved. Rahab came to find salvation through Israel.

It seems that Rahab came to faith before she met the spies.

• Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you

 

[chilehed]

The Church is absolutely unnecessary....

You may as well say that Christ is absolutely unnecessary.

 

[Francis Drake]

You may as well say that Christ is absolutely unnecessary.

Just in case you hadn't realised it, the church is somewhat different to Christ.

 

[Devin P]

• Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In Romans 3:31 we see,
Romans 3:31 - 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

He then goes on in chapter 4 to say:
Romans 4:9-15
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This is literally how Jesus was able to spare the gentiles, who weren't circumcised. Because of Abraham, while uncircumcised he became the father of the gentiles, through faith. He then sealed this faith, and walked out that faith, by getting circumcised, as a seal of his righteousness by faith. Then in verse 12:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

"them who are not of the circumcision" aka, Jews, yet he's the father of those who get circumcised who aren't of the circumcision, meaning those who get circumcised that once weren't. Aka, gentiles, who aren't jews, that then get circumcised after having faith in Jesus. "and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only." - aka, the gentiles, who became circumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

This is absolutely true. I'm saying that we aren't saved by observing Torah, but that we're saved by faith, and our faith, much like Abraham's seal of righteousness, we are to be sealed in our righteousness the same way. To walk out torah as a seal of our faith, not the root of our faith. Jesus (God) is at the heart and root of our faith, but the fruit of those things, the proof of those things, is our desire to keep Torah. Not for salvation, but as Abraham circumcised himself, simply for a seal of his righteousness, not the root of it.

Don't forget, that in Romans 7 and 8, Paul writes this:

Romans 7:14 -
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Romans 8:6-7 -
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

• Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Right, but that's talking about drawing back from the faith, as in, you go from praising Jesus as your savior, to denouncing Him, going after other God's, and rejecting what He's done for you.

Let us not forget what Hebrews 10:26-27 says:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

This literally says, if you willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth that there is no sacrifice that can atone for your sins. Jesus was the sacrifice that we were saved by, but if we continue in willful sin, we can no longer be saved by it.

Sin, is the transgression of Torah. So, if you continue in willful sin (eating pork, working on the 7th day, aka, the sabbath, etc.) there remains no more sacrifice for your sins. Am I saying that you have no sacrifice for your sins, and that Jesus doesn't atone for your sins? No, because you still haven't come entirely into the truth yet. You still believe that you are free to sin willingly, and that you don't have to observe Torah. Once you come into the truth, to see that we are saved by faith, but that faith will result in the desire to keep torah, and you continue a life of willing sin, and torahlessness, there is no more sacrifice to account for you.

Basically, if I go from now on, and ditch Torah, I will not be saved, no matter how much I believe. Because I know what my faith will result in. Obedience. If I don't obey, then do I even believe? If I've got faith in my parents and I know that they know what's best, and they tell me not to do something, and I do it anyway, in whom is my faith? My judgement, or theirs? It's certainly not in theirs, otherwise I'd have listened to them. The "draw back" it's talking about in Hebrews 10:38, is referring to someone who learns the truth, and rejects it. They go back to their old ways.

• Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

In that story, of Cain and Abel, Abel offered a sacrifice that is described in the "Mosaic law" or the "torah" as a meat offering, they would do, exactly what Abel did. The law of God, didn't just come about with Moses, it existed long before. It's eternal. It's what Abraham Obeyed in Genesis 26:5
The hebrew concept of faith, is different than the english. The english is simply belief, but the hebraic concept, is a belief that results in action. So, by faith, Abel offered a meat offering, because I guarantee you, God informed them, or at least His Spirit led them, to know that God desired that type of offering. His belief, led him to act in a way he knew would be acceptable to God. By following His law, which was shown to him by the Spirit that was in Him. Cain, was led by a different spirit, and he gave God an offering that is found nowhere in scripture. An offering of the non-favorable fruits in his field.

• Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

He pleased God, exactly. He did. By faith, but if you read the book of Jasher (which the bible references to three times as factual) it shows Enoch teaching the entire world the ways of God. He was a king over all of the world, and he taught everyone how to walk according to God's ways and statutes.

• Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Right, his faith, caused him to act. His faith, that resulted in action, saved him. He could've easily believed, and never built the ark, but he wouldn't of been saved. It was the coupling, both of belief and of action that saved him. I'd also like to point out, that not only did Noah (after the flood) offer up a first fruit burnt offering, as written about in Torah; But, he also understood the "levitical" clean and unclean food laws. As shown in Genesis 7:2
God didn't explain what clean animals were, he just commanded, because Noah already knew the difference. He even, only offered up the animals that were clean to God.

• Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
• Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Again, faith that resulted in Abraham's taking action to do something. No where in the bible do you see anyone believing in God, without doing something as a direct result of that belief.

• Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Beautiful story, that the book of Jasher goes into more detail on. Apparently, Isaac essentially said (rough paraphrase) "Whatever you ask of me, I'll do father. If God asks of you to do this thing, do it quickly, and don't wait."

I got off topic a second ago, but regardless. Right after God tells him to stop, God delivers a ram to Abraham. A ram.... One of the very few animals acceptable for a burnt offering, which Abraham offered. Noticing a pattern? That the law that was written about by Moses, existed long before, but in the hearts of men. We used to have a much more personal relationship with God before sin grew in the hearts of men as it has. God's spirit lived more prevalently in all of us (prior to Jesus). The world was still led astray by the fallen, but the ones that were for God, truly understood how to please Him because of other great men of faith that taught them His ways.

• Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
• Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
• Hebrews 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
• Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
• Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
• Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
• Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
• Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
• Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

I could respond to each of these individually, but there's a pattern in all of them. Their belief, resulted in them doing something. No where in the bible, can you find someone who believes in God, that didn't have that faith result in an action of some kind. The hebraic understanding of faith, is a belief, that moves one to act or to change something about their way of doing things.

You can't say you believe, if your actions don't show it. And I'm not just talking about love, because love is not the light with which we show the world our faith. Obedience is that light.

James 2:14-17
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:22-26
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 2:13 - (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Either we have a serious contradiction in the bible on our hands,

or

we have a serious misunderstanding being taught by the modern day church.

I abhor the first one, but I find both relief, and frustration in the second one.

 

[Devin P]

It seems that Rahab came to faith before she met the spies.

• Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you

James 2:25-26 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[David Kent]

Yes but she had faith before the works, she saved the spies because she had faith,

 

[Devin P]

Yes but she had faith before the works, she saved the spies because she had faith,

James 2:25-26 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The bible says that she was justified by works, only when she received the messengers. Not only when she believed, but when she took that belief and perfected it by housing the spies.

She stated that the whole land heard what Israel had done, and believed that their God would deliver them into their hands, yet none of them were saved -- why?

Because they didn't perfect that belief by submitting to God's sovereignty. They didn't get on His side. They rebelled against him. She did the opposite, and perfected her faith by ditching her ways, forsaking her people and housing the spies.

 

[Francis Drake]

Yes but she had faith before the works, she saved the spies because she had faith,

I see both sides of the discussion between you and @Devin P.

In my perspective, some of it hinges around the meaning of the word "salvation".
To NT Christian, "salvation" crudely means heaven when you're dead, ie. eternal life.
To the OT believer, "salvation" never means heaven when you're dead, but deliverance from Philistine famine and plague.

When Jesus walked through the land preaching, he was still talking to an OT people with an OT mind set, and he used the same terminology as they understood it from hearing it taught in the synagogues each week.
It is the church that has reinterpreted salvation into heaven when you die, and in doing so they have largely abandoned its true meaning.

Thus in a NT context, a person might be born again, and have eternal life as his inheritance, but never fully experience "salvation" till his earthly life ends.

Thus just as you have stated, Rahab clearly had faith in God, and as such possessed eternal life.
However, had she not enacted that faith by challenging the spies, she would never have experienced salvation, but would have perished with the rest of Jericho.

For many years I have argued the difference between being born again, and salvation. They should follow each other, but in most cases there is little evidence to show other than weekly church attendance.
As far as salvation from this world, most Christians are little different to non believers in their fears and powerlessness to deal with it.

 

[Devin P]

I see both sides of the discussion between you and @Devin P.

In my perspective, some of it hinges around the meaning of the word "salvation".
To NT Christian, "salvation" crudely means heaven when you're dead, ie. eternal life.
To the OT believer, "salvation" never means heaven when you're dead, but deliverance from Philistine famine and plague.

When Jesus walked through the land preaching, he was still talking to an OT people with an OT mind set, and he used the same terminology as they understood it from hearing it taught in the synagogues each week.
It is the church that has reinterpreted salvation into heaven when you die, and in doing so they have largely abandoned its true meaning.

Thus in a NT context, a person might be born again, and have eternal life as his inheritance, but never fully experience "salvation" till his earthly life ends.

Thus just as you have stated, Rahab clearly had faith in God, and as such possessed eternal life.
However, had she not enacted that faith by challenging the spies, she would never have experienced salvation, but would have perished with the rest of Jericho.

For many years I have argued the difference between being born again, and salvation. They should follow each other, but in most cases there is little evidence to show other than weekly church attendance.
As far as salvation from this world, most Christians are little different to non believers in their fears and powerlessness to deal with it.

Our obedience to His word is how we are to show our evidence. Wearing tassles/fringes, avoiding unclean animals, celebrating the holy days/feast days/ appointed times, keeping and celebrating the Sabbath, etc.

In doing all of these we are separated fromthe world instantly, and just simply walking down the street we are being a light and a testimony to the world.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The local church provides a moral compass for its assembled believers.

Matthew 18NASB) ...Discipline and Prayer
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private;
if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you,
so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every FACT may be confirmed.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;
and if he refuses to listen even to the church,
let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The "CHURCH" is the life-line to Matthew 28 Great Commission missionaries to the unbelieving world.

2 Corinthians 9(NASB)...spiritual giving
7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver.
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.
12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
13 Because of the proof given by this ministry,
they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

Only thing is those scriptures support the "church" as a body of believers, not a building institution.

 

[David Kent]

As far as I remember the only thing we as Christians are commanded to keep is the Lord's supper. No penteccost, no easter, no christmas.