The sign of the Cross/ Spiritual Weapon or attention getter?

[Smoked Pork Ribs]

I was baptized when I was 22 into Orthodox Church and didn't really know about it until then but when I first starting doing it I began to see it first and foremost as an invocation. For example if you're about to do something spiritual like pray or take Communion or read the Bible I would start off with it with "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" but now I see it more as a physical blessing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Technically the Orthodox celebrate All Saints on the first Sunday after Pentecost, the celebration of All Saints on November 1st is the Western tradition dating back to the high middle ages--so yes Lutherans and Anglicans celebrate the Feast of All Saints on November 1st too. But we Lutherans also have Reformation Day on October 31st, which coincides with the Eve of All Saints; generally the celebration of Reformation Day tends to fall on the Sunday on/before October 31st, and is honored as Reformation Sunday.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, most of the Lutheran churches here celebrated the 500th anniversary of Luther's posting of the 95 Theses on Sunday, October 29, but Holy Cross Lutheran Church here had a special service on the actual anniversary, October 31, which made it convenient for folks like me, who are engaged with other churches, to attend.

 

[Fidelibus]

Yes, most of the Lutheran churches here celebrated the 500th anniversary of Luther's posting of the 95 Theses on Sunday, October 29, but Holy Cross Lutheran Church here had a special service on the actual anniversary, October 31, which made it convenient for folks like me, who are engaged with other churches, to attend.

Hey 7-b, back on post #58 you said while you were attending this service"

At several points during the service the pastor and/or the congregation made the sign of the cross.

Then I asked on the following post:

Including yourself? If not....why not?

Care to respond?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hey 7-b, back on post #58 you said while you were attending this service"

Then I asked on the following post:

Care to respond?

Yes, I shall respond. I am not now, nor ever have been a Lutheran. I am not a liturgical Christian and thus, do not generally participate in a liturgical manner when I do attend a liturgical church. This has both positive and negative aspects, depending on one's perspective. You would probably consider it a positive thing that I do not take communion in liturgical churches.

 

[Fidelibus]

I am not a liturgical Christian and thus, do not generally participate in a liturgical manner when I do attend a liturgical church.

You mean like funerals, weddings, baptisims, ect.?

This has both positive and negative aspects, depending on one's perspective.

What would you consider the positive/negative aspects to be? I've read or seen on t.v. (not quite sure) where many Evangelicals are leaving their evangelical churches looking for more of a personal, deeper and richer liturgical worship experience. Including converting to Catholicism.

You would probably consider it a positive thing that I do not take communion in liturgical churches.

As a Catholic, I do not, for there is nothing positive about seeing my seperated Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ lack some of the graces granted by God to us in the Sacraments/Sacramentals of the Catholic Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You mean like funerals, weddings, baptisims, ect.?

Yes.

What would you consider the positive/negative aspects to be? I've read or seen on t.v. (not quite sure) where many Evangelicals are leaving their evangelical churches looking for more of a personal, deeper and richer liturgical worship experience. Including converting to Catholicism.

As I noted previously, my cousin and her husband, an ordained pastor, are actively working at creating liturgical Pentecostal house churches. I saw them on Friday, after a couple of decades. He is now sporting a black clerical shirt with white clerical collar and a large cross on a necklace. I didn't ask him if he is now making the sign of the cross, as well.

As a Catholic, I do not, for there is nothing positive about seeing my seperated Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ lack some of the graces granted by God to us in the Sacraments/Sacramentals of the Catholic Church.

Then the next time I attend a Catholic mass I will go forward and eat the wafer and sip the wine.

 

[Major1]

What do you think? For me, it is a very powerful prayer, (yes, it is a prayer) and Spiritual Weapon against Satan and his demons. Because the sign of the Cross is the mark of our redemption, Satan hates it. Demons flee from the sign of the cross when it is devoutly made. Recently after Mass, my fiance' and I stopped for breakfast. As usual, we cross ourselves before giving thanks to God for our breakfast. A short time later, this Evangelical Christian lady come up to our table and said, " You two must be Catholics" and I said yes we were. She goes on to say she thought so because we crossed ourselves, and that only Catholics do it.

She also asked why we cross ourselves. When I explained why, as I did in my opening statement here, she just rolled her eyes and said that she thinks the only reason Catholics do it is to bring attention to themselves. When I told her that was not the case at all, she just huffed and puffed as she walked away saying she would never dream of doing such a thing, in public no less.

I was quite taken aback by this lady, and began to wonder why she found crossing ourselves so offensive, and why most non-Catholics don't use this most powerful prayer in their daily lives. Making the sign of the cross has been a part of Christianity from the most earlist times, for example. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (AD 386), Bishop of Jerusalem, says the following of this powerful sign:

"Let us, therefore, not be ashamed of the Cross of Christ; but though another hide it, do thou openly seal it upon thy forehead, that the devils may behold the royal sign and flee trembling far away. Make then this sign at eating and drinking, at sitting, at lying down, at rising up, at speaking, at walking: in a word, at every act."

Even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when did this change in Protestantism, and who was it that frowned against most Protestants from doing it?

Look forward to all responces.

I can not help but wonder how many Catholics do it just as a "Ritual" and place no significance to it at all?

Personally I do not care if anyone does it or not. It is not Biblical in any way but is solely a Catholic teaching.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I can not help but wonder how many Catholics do it just as a "Ritual" and place no significance to it at all?

Personally I do not care if anyone does it or not. It is not Biblical in any way but is solely a Catholic teaching.

It is not solely a Catholic teaching or practice. The sign of the cross is a tradition from the earliest days of Christianity. It is practiced by more Christians than not when you consider who are the largest Christian groups in the world.

 

[Fidelibus]

I can not help but wonder how many Catholics do it just as a "Ritual" and place no significance to it at all?

Personally I do not care if anyone does it or not. It is not Biblical in any way but is solely a Catholic teaching.

See post #68, and this person isn't even Catholic!

 

[Fidelibus]

Then the next time I attend a Catholic mass I will go forward and eat the wafer and sip the wine.

You make my point. As a seperated brother/sister in Christ, why would you even want to, if you don't believe The Holy Eucharist is the True Body, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, and not just a "wafer" or "wine" as Instituted by Christ?
Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, and Luke 22:17-20
Eucharist is instituted by Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:7
Jesus is called the Paschal Lamb who has been sacrificed.
1 Corinthians 11:23-25
St. Paul pens the earliest written account of the institution of the Eucharist.
John 1:29
Jesus is called "the Lamb of God".

 

[W2L]

So would my prayers be more effective if i do the cross sign? I know that obedience to God is necessary for an effective prayer. But a cross sign?

 

[Major1]

You mean like funerals, weddings, baptisims, ect.?



What would you consider the positive/negative aspects to be? I've read or seen on t.v. (not quite sure) where many Evangelicals are leaving their evangelical churches looking for more of a personal, deeper and richer liturgical worship experience. Including converting to Catholicism.



As a Catholic, I do not, for there is nothing positive about seeing my seperated Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ lack some of the graces granted by God to us in the Sacraments/Sacramentals of the Catholic Church.

I for one, in 50 years of Christianity ministry have never had a member of the church leave the Protestant church in favor of the Catholic Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the sacraments as "efficacious signs of grace", instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us.

Allow me to say to you that those of us who are Protestant are not lacking any of the graces or blessing of God that He makes available to all.

 

[Major1]

It is not solely a Catholic teaching or practice. The sign of the cross is a tradition from the earliest days of Christianity. It is practiced by more Christians than not when you consider who are the largest Christian groups in the world.

As an Anglican, what do you perceive the differences are between you and the Catholic faith?

Other than the Church of England (Anglican) including women, gays and lesbians in the clergy; and priests are allowed to marry; and greater local control over churches instead of a strong central authority, are they not pretty close in doctrine?

 

[seeking.IAM]

As an Anglican, what do you perceive the differences are between you and the Catholic faith?

Other than the Church of England (Anglican) including women, gays and lesbians in the clergy; and priests are allowed to marry; and greater local control over churches instead of a strong central authority, are they not pretty close in doctrine?

I don't want to derail this thread from its topic. My brief answer is to say "it depends." In the U.S. some Episcopal churches are Anglo Catholic while others lean more toward evangelical.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't want to derail this thread from its topic. My brief answer is to say "it depends." In the U.S. some Episcopal churches are Anglo Catholic while others lean more toward evangelical.

It seems that many of the Anglo-Catholic churches in the United States are now leaving the Episcopal denomination and affiliating with other Anglican bodies. Just across the Mississippi River from me an entire diocese is now Anglican and no longer Episcopalian.

The Episcopalian denomination in the United States is considered to be generally Broad (a word with specific meaning to Anglicans) with minorities of Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals (Low Church).

 

[seeking.IAM]

It seems that many of the Anglo-Catholic churches in the United States are now leaving the Episcopal denomination and affiliating with other Anglican bodies. Just across the Mississippi River from me an entire diocese is now Anglican and no longer Episcopalian.

The Episcopalian denomination in the United States is considered to be generally Broad (a word with specific meaning to Anglicans) with minorities of Anglo-Catholics and Evangelicals (Low Church).

It is true that some have left The Episcopal Church. It is equally true that TEC is a big tent church. But that is a topic for a different thread than this one about the sign of the cross. And as for me, I remain unashamedly Episcopalian.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is true that some have left The Episcopal Church. It is equally true that TEC is a big tent church. But that is a topic for a different thread than this one about the sign of the cross. And as for me, I remain unashamedly Episcopalian.

Nor, as I have previously posted, is making the sign of the cross limited to the Catholic Church, as Major stated. It is made as well by some Lutherans.

 

[Major1]

So would my prayers be more effective if i do the cross sign? I know that obedience to God is necessary for an effective prayer. But a cross sign?

All Jesus said about this is that we shal receive what we ask for if we do it "IN Jesus Name".

I do not recall any Bible verses that direct Christians to cross themselves.

 

[Major1]

You make my point. As a seperated brother/sister in Christ, why would you even want to, if you don't believe The Holy Eucharist is the True Body, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, and not just a "wafer" or "wine" as Instituted by Christ?
Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, and Luke 22:17-20
Eucharist is instituted by Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:7
Jesus is called the Paschal Lamb who has been sacrificed.
1 Corinthians 11:23-25
St. Paul pens the earliest written account of the institution of the Eucharist.
John 1:29
Jesus is called "the Lamb of God".

By the phrase, "Separated", I hope that you mean separate from the Catholic church and not separate from the Lord Jesus Christ.

What you call the Eucharist we as Protestants call the same thing the Lord's Supper/Communion.

Whether the Catholic definition of Holy Eucharist is a "re-sacrifice" of Christ, or a "re-offering" of Christ's sacrifice, or a “re-presentation” of Christ’s sacrifice, the concept is unbiblical. Christ does not need to be re-sacrificed. Christ's sacrifice does not need to be re-offered or re-presented.

Hebrews 7:27 declares...........
"Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself."

Similarly, 1 Peter 3:18 says..........
"For Christ died for sins ONCE for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God...".

1 John 2:2..............
Christ's once-for-all death on the cross was sufficient to atone for all of our sins.

Christ's sacrifice does not need to be re-offered. Instead, Christ's sacrifice is to be received by faith Eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood are symbols of fully receiving His sacrifice on our behalf, by grace through faith.

 

[Fidelibus]

So would my prayers be more effective if i do the cross sign? I know that obedience to God is necessary for an effective prayer. But a cross sign?

The sign of the Cross is in its self a prayer and a Sacramental, so why wouldn't you?